Do powercords make a difference in sound?

there are very few phenomenon in life that are undeniable.

the basis for such a statement, that power cords differ, sonically, is sense perception.

how can something as imperfect as hearing be undeniable. in no way can one assert that "line cords differ sonically is knowledge".

by the way if someone uses the word undeniable, that person better be able to provide indubitable evidence or proof.

that one says i hear something, therefore it is undeniable, or 100 people hear something is undeniable is not based upon logic, but rather induction.

there are serious issues of logic here that need to be considered.

are there any necessary and sufficient conditions associated with perceptions ?

by the way, i have not said that line cords sound the same, but the differences perceived are opinions, not facts, as they are probobaliistic in nature.

what is the problem with asserting that one believes that line cords sound different based upon comparisons, and admitting that such an assertion is an opinion.

there is opinion , fact and knowledge. it is important to consider the distinction between opinion and fact.

08-19-11: Zaikesman
I have to wonder if those positions are based more on theory or experience. In my own experience, although maybe some of this extrinsic/intrinsic business does apply (and I would agree that a good bit of it does apply when it comes to speaker cables in particular), I have pretty much found that any power cord's sonic signature migrates between components with the cord to a significant extent.

Hi Zaikesman – Your point about theory vs. experience is well taken. I have a weakness for being theoretical, as anyone who has read my posts can testify to. Having said that, I generally regard myself as an empiricist, which is to say, I believe that most bodies of knowledge result from experience, whether direct or indirect. But that acknowledgment is not a denigration of theory, for the following reason: ALL knowledge is theory laden. For that matter, all PERCEPTION is theory laden, though unlike most theories, which are written in books, the theories of perception are written in our DNA. But now I'm getting theoretical again.

As for my experience with power cords, I have not found the same consistency across diverse applications that you have. So what’s to be done when audiophiles disagree about their experiences? Not much, I suppose. I’m not generally a fan of sarcasm, but Audiofeil’s last comment struck me as funny, and à propos.

I will say this: I do not doubt your experience or your expertise. I tend to believe what most audiophiles say when they describe what they hear, even though I’m aware of the existence of all kinds of unconscious influences to perception and judgment.

In light of that, I would be interested to hear more about the particulars of the experiences you mentioned in which power cables exhibited consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. I would also be interested to hear your response to Al’s recent comments which, to my mind, make a compelling, albeit theoretical, argument that casts doubt on the position you are advancing. I'm not being challenging. I'm being sincere.

I will challenge you on one thing though, and that is this comment...

A listener's impression of a power cord might change with seating position!

On the face of it, this statement strikes me as a contradiction of the position you are advancing. If a listener’s impression of a power cord changes from one listening position to another, then the power cord in question FAILS TO exhibit consistent audible characteristics. And if a power cord fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MINOR changes like listening position, then how can we expect the very same power cord to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MAJOR changes, like two different audio systems?

Bryon

Hi Al, thank you for your thoughtful response. It does seem to answer my question about whether your position that power cords can't have an intrinsic 'sound' is taken primarily from theory or listening.

I am not qualified to submit to you the existence of other possible technical factors beyond the ones you listed, and indeed there may be none (though I did wonder why you omitted capacitance -- I'm sure you have a reason and will explain it). But I tend to be skeptical about any assertion that the things we know to measure for are necessarily the only qualities we would ever want or need to measure, relevent to correlating with subjective sonic impressions, if only we knew what and how. (Not that you have specifically asserted such.)

I would however venture to guess that questions of what I will loosely lump under the umbrella term of resonance, not only of the mechanical kind, may play a part. And I do believe that, despite the sorts of well-recognized factors you describe and nobody would dispute, it's highly likely that no one actually possesses the knowledge or wherewithal to sit down with a blank sheet of paper to design a power cord and know in advance just what it will sound like. (I think there's a bit of a crapshoot-factor here -- some call it 'black art' -- that demands reiterative, trial-and-error experience involving subjective listening in the design process in order to accumulate a useful knowledge base -- at least for honest designers who aren't just 'badge engineering' their products and slapping a fancy jacket on them to go along with the high price tag). But of course for those who share your take that power cords can't 'have sounds' in the first place, that assumption, even if true, would not present a conceptual hurdle.

There's nothing particularly difficult, from the standpoint of either practicality or the ability to draw valid conclusions, about an audiophile getting his or her hands on a few different power cords, trying them on various components, and seeing whether or not any consistencies in sonic signature tend to migrate with the cords to a perceptible degree. You could do it as easily as I. If you did, I'd wager that you just might reconsider whether you've satisfactorily explained everything there may be to think about from the theoretical perspective.

Fortunately however, the whole question is largely trivial and moot in my view. Whether or not power cords, or any cables for that matter, possess their own intrinsic 'sounds', or whether such qualities, to the extend we believe and can observe that they exist at all, are purely extrinsic in nature, at the end of the day we all still need some kind of wires to hook up and plug in our gear with. And unless you're going to design and make your own, or are hell-bent on just going to Home Despot and buying off the reel without subjectively evaluating anything else, so as to conform with preexisting beliefs (however apparently logical) -- or maybe just in order to save money (quite logical if someone has never heard a difference) -- then there's really nothing else to do but identify a few likely candidates, quite probably based on theoretical considerations among others, and then listen to music through them. Except of course if debating about it online is the higher priority... ;^)

Cheers, that's all I got, I'm out!

Interesting thread as always when this topic comes up...sorta. Loved Audiofiels last post especially!

I am very fortunate to possess 2 invaluable qualities I have cherished in exploring this subject: Ignorance and apathy. These items have helped me keep the whole process pretty damn simple. I have very little knowledge of the inerworkings of electricity, power supplies/delivery etc and as important, I really do not care to learn the details. I do care how music sounds in my living room so the issue of power cords has been messed around with for a few years now. What my simple exercises have taught me is that power cords influence my systems performance and different cords have a sonic signature or character that is consistent (fairly) across different component groups. Actually, it's really kinda obvious once you start putting them in and listening so it always baffles me when others post they are not able to hear it....but....in the bigger picture I don't care that much as I really am mainly interested in how music sounds in my living room, not so much in yours! I am not so sure why I felt compelled to contribute here but I did none the less.

Lets take a simple example, just for sake of ease... Nordost Vallhala power cord. Now, it is a nice cord that does some things well and some things not so well. I would guess that if you took some time and searched a large sample of forum posts that described what these power cords sound like there would be a relatively consistent sonic picture painted. Why? In fact, if I asked you guys to describe this cord, I would guess that many would have very similar adjectives. Same could be said for Tara's family of power cables which sound dramatically different than Nordost. Most of the folks who would chime in came to the understanding of these characters by listening to the cords. How is it possible that all these unrelated parties in unrelated systems seem to come up with the very same sonic images that occur when these specific cords are inserted in their system?

Zaikesman and Richard, you are correct.

I learned long ago that cords have their own intrinsic sound/nature which is transferrable to all components with which they are used. Testing over one dozen sets of cables on multiple components/speakers has cemented this for me.

The nature (geometry, gauge, conductor material, dielectric, etc.) of the cable (which travels with the cable, obviously) trumps the extrinsic interactions between it and components/speakers. A cable which, in comparision to a different set, sounds dull, will sound dull on any rig. A cable, which in comparison to another set sounds bass heavy, will sound bass heavy on any rig. etc. I have absolutely not found any cable which is a chamelion, i.e. changing it's sonic nature such that sounds dramatically different on a variety of gear, such as highly detailed with one system while sounding dull with another system.

You two guys have found one of the secrets of building a superior system. Most audiophiles are too unwilling to spend the money or too unwilling to spend the time to discover it. :)

Conclusions such as this are relatively easy to reach if you are willing to put in the time and money. Frankly, most audiophiles are either too cheap or unwilling to put in the time to reach proper conclusions. If someone wants to get offended by that assessment, so be it. I'm not naming names, and I used to be too chintzy to conduct the tests myself. I'm very glad I got over it.

I have no problem with a person who simply has no interest or the means to pursue a rig to the point of chasing down cabling. I do have a problem with someone who wants to tell others what's possible when they haven't lifted a finger to test it. I like the sentiment: While some are saying, "It can't be done," others are out doing it.

By the way, a well known speaker maker visited last week and delivered a lovely set of speakers for review. I took the opportunity to show him the efficacy of changing power cords as we listened to his speakers. Once I replaced the two power cords on the amps he started the demo disc again. Within ten seconds he stopped it, turned to his wife and began to describe the differences.

This fits perfectly with my Law of Efficacy, which states that a change must be heard immediately (typically within seconds, not mintues, hours or longer), and be deemed easy enough to describe without a struggle. He admitted that he had not been so much of a cable enthusiast but that the difference was distinct. In other words, he was learning that power cords are more important than he thought.

This is now the fifth industry insider who has concluded that cable canges can be easily heard based on simple demo in my room. I didn't even need to change the entire set for them to reach that conclusion, just a set of ICs or two power cords! A demo in moments convinced him more than hours of talking would.

I've stopped being surprised at how surprised manufacturers and distributors are at such demonstrations. I realize most of them have never conducted such tests. If even the industry people aren't conducting these tests, should I expect the average audiophile to? Probably not.

I simply won't argue indefinitely with someone who is capable of conducting simple tests and refuses. Then, why do I occasionally post my comments? Because there are some lurkers who will actually act on my advice and find out I'm right. They will be the big winners in terms of listening experience. :)

There, I've made my contribution toward 90, if anyone's counting. ;)