Gopher: Phil does not believe that room impacts sound, especially in bass.
Therefore, he says that what you put your Souls on does not matter. It is "floor height insensitive' because it say so on the box.
In reality, put different speaker on carpet, wood, stone, you hear difference in bass.
Also, height of speaker can have impact on what you hear because super tweeter is very directional, and that impact tonal balance.
This is not about controlling gap height (which happen in druid) but about placement and room interaction effecting tone. |
Naggot: Can you tell us more about your room setup? How directional have you set Druid FRD?
I am very curious about how new Soul FRD work for someone who, for room reasons, has used Druid FRD very directional. |
>>Phil does not believe that room impacts sound, especially in bass.<<
Uh...I haven't written or said this, ever. I said some people may not care enough to do anything about it, yet still find $2000 - $3000 speakers worthwhile.
>>he says that what you put your Souls on does not matter.<<
Nope, didn't say that, either. I said I don't recommend placing speakers on an MDF slab on top of carpet, and explained why.
>>It is "floor height insensitive' because it say so on the box.<
What I said is that Soul is gap height insensitive by design. And it is, above 1/4". At 1/4" or less, it isn't.
>>In reality, put different speaker on carpet, wood, stone, you hear difference in bass.<<
That's a different issue than the question raised, which was a query about the right gap height. But placing any speaker on different surfaces and hearing a bass difference is more a matter of anchorage, speaker-to-floor interface chosen, than specific material. You can manage different material interfaces to the same end.
>>Also, height of speaker can have impact on what you hear because super tweeter is very directional, and that impact tonal balance.<<
Which I stated, in different terms.
>>This is not about controlling gap height (which happen in druid) but about placement and room interaction effecting tone.<<
It is about controlling gap height if that's the variable by which he's hearing differences. As I also said, there are many other factors, room properties being merely a subset of influences. A given user may or may not care to mitigate them.
Phil |
My room is large and L shaped, this is why I'm interested in the wider dispersion of the soul FRD. It measures 6m wide by 9m long with the foot of the L extending a further 6m. 6m is around 20ft.
Carpeted with soft furnishings. on One wall is a glass door measuring 2.7m high by 4m long.
I have the Druids around 2m from side walls and 2m apart. With toe in focussed to a point about 3.5m in front/center. The focal point is about 3 people wide.
I like to listen to blues, rock and dance style music. I have the mini methods filling in the bass. I find the bass levels increase and decrease as I walk around the room. I haven't treated for this. My floors are timber with carpet.
I found the mundorf caps made a difference and the ash digital make the treble far more open but not harsh...... Real sounding, the bass is incredible at times, tight fast no boom. The mid at the focal point is amazing, voices and guitars are in the room, you catch yourself lookig around for them such is the reality. I listen mainly standing up not sitting.
Off axis this dissapates, still sounds good but the image is gone. I hope the Soul FRD Improves this area
Due to kids the Druids are close to the back wall, I have the gap set at one cd case above the carpet with a vinyl floor tile on the carpet. The Druids are also held down with a bracket to prevent the children tipping them over.
I use zu libtec speaker cables, zu varial and zu ash ics. These replaced cardas golden cross and neutral refs and alphacore goertz mi2 speaker cables. |
Naggots: It is interesting. You listen standing up, which unless you are very short places your ears much above top of speaker. In sitting position, ear is between center of FRD (tweeter) and supertweeter which seems more sensible to me for tonal accuracy.
Also, it is excellent you have dual mini methods. I wish I had two subs like this, but I just have one. I am curious as to why you are interested in having sound good in all positions, ie. have bass be smooth while walking around. I think this is very difficult to achieve and is certainly not sonic goal of mine. My bass sucks outside of listening position and is OK in listening position. But when I am in listening position I pay attention, and when I am walking around I am usually also doing something else.
My suspicion is that wide dispersion FRD will improve sound at all positions but make sound worse in listening position. Not interesting to me in and of itself, although I could do things to my room to limit this effect and other parts of it might be good depending on whether how much dispersed sound was, say very high upperbass/midrange and below vs. above.
I am very interested in how reported measured smoothness of FRD compare to Druid FRD which measures ragged (and I only between above upper bass but below HF where Greiwe loading and essence tweeter should not be issue). What problems do you hear in your current set-up that you are specificlly hoping new Soul FRD will help address. Looking forward to learning more!
Phil: You say one thing, then you say opposite thing. This zig and zag you do, it is like talking to serpent. |
After speaking to Sean he says the new FRD will have more pop in the mid bass but slightly less deep bass than the mk4/08 the combo of lighter cone and stronger motor. Should also have slightly more dynamic scale....... Wider soundstage would also be a benefit to me.
I listen standing and moving around mostly as I have kids running wild and don't usually have quality time. I agree seated is best........
The 2 minis integrate so well as I can move them around to suit the room. Something you can't do with presence or definitions. |
Yes. There is something to be said about separate LF and mains. Or even separate LF, bass, and mains if you have tools to re-integrate.
Anyway, eager to hear your report. |
>>You say one thing, then you say opposite thing. This zig and zag you do, it is like talking to serpent.<<
I think you must simply not be reading carefully what I write. Maybe your busy or just don't want to; I can't say. But in nearly every rejoinder you've misstated a position I clearly articulated in a prior post. My POV in this thread has been consistent. But I've separated things that I might worry about (which is not as much as you're concerned with) from the realities of others who see no reason to be so precise about their sound. Like this comment/question of yours:
"I am curious as to why you are interested in having sound good in all positions, ie. have bass be smooth while walking around."
An audiophile might grok it, but it's a ridiculous question to a music lover - more of whom Zu would like to sell to.
>>My suspicion is that wide dispersion FRD will improve sound at all positions but make sound worse in listening position.<<
I'm sure you'll find this not to be true if you decide to spring for Soul Superfly. I noted that the new FRD has "widER" dispersion, which is not quite the same as saying "wide." It's not nearly as wide as, say, Definition. It's wide enough. You still can get a focused, toneful, room-minimizing sound in a single listening position if that's what you really want to set up for, which I understand. Many do not want that and won't feel victimized by a beamy speaker.
>>Druid FRD which measures ragged (and I only between above upper bass but below HF where Greiwe loading and essence tweeter should not be issue).<<
I went roundabout with Sean and Adam on this once. They objected to juxtaposing the terms "Griewe" and "loading." It was reminiscent of trying to get a succinct explanation of B3 in their cables. Lacking a more precise nomenclature, we used the combined term "Griewe Model" for the rest of the conversation. Well, it turns out the Griewe scheme has influence on the behavior and sound of the FRD right through its range. Druid really didn't have much Griewe model in it, but just enough to be beneficiary of an idea. Essence and Soul are full Griewe model speakers, Soul being a further refinement over Essence, which you can hear in the nearly same bass performce of Essence in a smaller cabinet, and an audibly smoother more open midrange than Druid or Essence.
Phil |
Zanon,
Gotta agree with Phil here. There appears to be some misunderstanding as his posts have been crystal clear in terms of their language and helpful in clarifying the sound of the Superfly.
Mike |
Mike -- I can go through Phil's posts and pull out contradictory quotes. I have no interest in doing so, and Phil will probably squeal that I am taking him out of context. Worse, I will have to actually read them again and seeing "just plop them down" repeated along with long shopping list of components is of no interest to me. My preference is to talk about sound, not gear. |
Phil: Despite my jibes at you and our disagreements, I really do appreciate the factual data you share about Souls. And yes, distinctions like wide vs widER dispersement is exactly area I am curious about in new FRD.
I also very much appreciate the knowledge you get from Zu folks, who I like very much.
I do not feel Druid is "beamy" in negative auditory sense, it just has very directional HF (thank Gods!) And my room isolation strategy is not driven by my preference for that sort of sound, it is just the strategy I need to take to get best sound for me given limitations of my room and my life. |
>>"just plop them down" <<
That wasn't advice, it was merely a statement of what the non-audiophile music listener can do and still be happy.
I was talking about sound, not gear. Any gear suggestions are strictly for purposes of reaching goals in sound.
Phil |
>>I do not feel Druid is "beamy" in negative auditory sense<<
Like the beamy nature of the original Quad ESL, Druid's directionality is boon to some, bane to others. Every beamy speaker ends up controversial at least in part for that property. I leave it to others to decide whethr directionality is bane or boon to them. It's less suitable to HT2.0, for example than it is to single-seat audiophile nirvana. There's no point in arguing either way with someone who embraces or rejects beamy directionality. In Druid it's not a problem for me, and for the system I use them in, there is asset value to its directionality. But then I have another system with Definitions, so I don't have to choose. For the more typical buyer building one system, I think most people with find Soul gives them more latitude than Druid, to satisfy both precision audiophile cravings and whole-room satisfaction for group-oriented sound. Another reason that Soul will outperform Druid for the precision audiophile is that it is plain and simple a fundamentally more accurate speaker before you ever get to the fiddly stuff. It's possible -- POSSIBLE -- that some people familiar with both will feel the Druid is more euphonic to them. No arguing with that. But Soul more accurately represents music as you'd hear it live, for requency accuracy, detail transmission, and dynamic reasons.
Phil |
Zanon: For F***'s Sake!
Just go and listen to the Soul Superfly's and trust your ears. |
Here is my take on where this thread is going- stupidville. It isn't even funny anymore. Zanon- listen to the speakers if you get a chance and less to the voices in your head. Spare us the cacophony.
I talked to Zu today- there won't be any more pics for awhile, till they get the first batch delivered. There won't be any early samples sent to reviewers either. So this thread seems to be it for people to comment as they receive their souls. I for one hope we can hold it to comments about real listening experience. |
Zanon,
I've been here for the whole thread and, to repeat, I and others have seen nothing contradictory in Phils posts. Occasional clarifications have been required and have been generously forthcoming and a model of clarity. Your concern about being accused of taking stuff out of context is well founded. You have either obviously misunderstood Phil or quoted him absolutely out of context further deraling the thread in the process to no great gain for anyone including your good self. It really is, er, just you.
If you want to talk about sound and not gear then it does occur to me that perhaps a thread about a specific piece of gear was one you should have left alone.
Still, Phil has explained himself most ably for the rest of us and his posts on here are one of many reasons I have now placed an order.
Phil - I presume you detect a slight difference in the mid range between Soul and Druid that some night describe as a decrease in euphony but you suggest is just a reflection of their accuracy. I must say that I loved the perceived euphony of the Druid. Are you saying that I might feel it has gone or just lessened slightly? I'm just trying to clarify as I associate that euphony with the phenomenal presence possessed by the Druids; the sense of Ben Webster blowing a real horn stood in front of you. Earlier, much earlier in the thread, you suggested the Soul was the true successor to the Druid and i understood that to mean mostly in terms of the mid.
Apologies if Zanon now leaps on this! :)
Venicelake - I entirely agree. When my Soul Superfly arrive I shall spend some time settling them in and then perhaps post in detail.
In the meantime I'm a bit disappointed Zu can't muster something up pics wise even if it's just from the factory floor or something a bit arty. I can see where they're coming from but personally I am craving!!!
Gopher - we need more feedback.
Mike |
I think it is entirely reasonable that this thread be for those who receive Soul and can provide report. |
>> I must say that I loved the perceived euphony of the Druid. Are you saying that I might feel it has gone or just lessened slightly?<<
I'll try to separate characteristics here. Druid has known midrange response anomalies that give it a bit warmer-than-real sound, which combined with the soft top end render it sounding what some people refer to as "dark." The v4-08 upgrade substantially removed this but traces still linger. If that kind of euphony is what you like, Superfly will lose it conclusively in favor of better frequency accuracy and clarity without ever sounding cold. You can always restore some of that darkness by mating the speakers to the right 300B amplifier;>).
HOWEVER, if the euphonic character you love is more like your reference to "...Ben Webster blowing a real horn stood in front of you...," well, you're going to get that, just more! That tonal density and ability to represent the full bite and burr of a horn with the musicality of having small dynamic changes utterly transparently revealed, and the holistic sense of a horn fully represented rather than torn apart by a crossover and represented by different drivers your head has to put back together -- that's "better" than Druid, conclusively.
More frequency accuracy combined with absolutely no loss in tone. In fact, you'll gain tone along with an even quicker jump factor and bass extension that retains transient definition as low as it goes.
I can't say yet about base Soul, but you have to look at Superfly as expanding the polar graph of favorable attributes of Druid while taking some kinks out of the circle where Druid had consciously-chosen, restricting compromise.
Does that help?
Phil |
I too am a little confused by the apparent 'tiff' between Phil and Zanon, but both have offered solid, legitimate insight and recounts of personal experience so both are valuable to me.
For those wanting more feedback, I've largely achieved what I want with these speakers. The control the F1 has over the FRDs is amazing and the extra detail and natural extension I'm getting on the top end compared to with my Abbys is a revelation.
As suggested previously, these speakers have a signature that is harmonically rich/tonally dense with excellent speed and dynamics.
In my current system configuration they serve up an abundance of coherent energy. They are just extremely musical with everything I throw at it and deliciously versatile as well. Having these speakers made me realize how much my prior speakers controlled my listening choices. With the Zus, everything I've got is fair game from Jay-Z to Miles Davis.
The midrange is quick with great inner detail, but its not at all sterile sounding--very human. I think this is what people refer to when they describe it as 'organic'.
The bass response has been terrific as well. I truly don't want for a sub woofer.
The entire frequency spectrum is interegrated extremely well giving a very linear sound.
I can listen to this rig for hours--it just breathes PRaT... very musically satisfying. I'm not quite getting the emotion I've experienced before but suspect that would be achieved with tubes rather than my transconductance amp. Don't get me wrong, they are emotionally communicative and engaging, but not THE most emotionally gripping experience I've had... Definitely the most I've had with SS though!
I had thought about Zu and decided against it a few times in the past. I don't know why, but I had a feeling their house sound would be very... weird. I'm honestly disappointed now that I waited so long, but the Soul Superfly really was a good place to jump on board.
I'm beyond satisfied with my purchase. |
Thanks Phil and Gopher. Most useful.
Phil - yes that sorts it for me. In retrospect what I loved most about the Druids was that realness. The dark sound as you put it was something new to me but I grew to love it because it never got in the way of that realness. Having heard the Presence deliver much the same with perhaps less euphony then I doubt I'll miss it that much.
Gopher - your post is very encouraging. Your first posts on arrival of the Superfly were positive but a little vague. Now it's as though the speaker has allowed you to see what it's doing better in every area without any detriment to the music.
I've got at least s month to wait for my pair in the UK. it's going to be a long month :)
Mike |
Mike,
I wanted to hold up on commenting much at first for a few reasons.
Firstly, the drivers were no burned in (and probably still have a couple weeks to go).
Secondly, I did not have appropriate spikes and was using the floor footers on carpet which was difficult because my plinth gap was uneven as a result--practically sitting on carpet in middle with gap around edges. I used my Abby spikes awkwardly for a couple of days until my Cains sold, but the screw was too small for the hole and they were very anything but appropriately planted.
Thirdly, I've been beta testing a new line of cables which repeatedly introduced a very positive improvement in sound. Now that these things aren't issues (drivers/cables settled and appropriate spikes on) I feel more comfortable commenting in depth.
It still surprises me how much more extension I've got on top and bottom while retaining the FRD coherence. I almost took the plunge months ago to try the Druids (before soul superfly was announced) but the guys on audioasylum almost unanimously advised against it, so I'd put that on hold.
I am happy I decided to be an early adopter on these and don't miss anything about the Abbys sound--only their looks.
I truly believe these speakers will be good enough to see the benefits of all upgrades elsewhere in my system. That is very cool for me. |
Thanks Gopher,
I'm always amazed how many people post about new kit and are critical of it, only to mention in passing that they're running something else in too. Nice to see some caution followed by detailed description.
Once I have my Superfly I'm going to burn them in and experiment with position. Then I intend to post extensively on the outcome. However, i'm hoping to be so otherwise occupied that I can't get out of my chair ;) I'll try my best though.
Mike |
Anyone else get their Superflys yet? I'm surprised there has been next to no feedback from anyone else.
I spent a good deal of time listening over the holiday weekend and the more time I put on my pair the more I appreciate them.
The ONLY thing I want a touch more of is texture and image density with my F1, which I may try to achieve by means of a tube amp, but I don't want to upset the amazing PRaT I'm getting now.
Either way my listening is a lot more fun and less analytical these days and I could easily live with what I'm experiencing. |
Gopher:
Check "Watt's New" at www.firstwatt.com: select F1J
Nelson Pass is upgrading the F1 to the new Jfets used in the J2: free for original owners (you pay only frieght + cost of shipping box), small charge for 2nd owners, etc.
Might be your answer for more texture and image density.
If interested, contact nelson@passlabs.com to get on the upgrade list; include the serial # of your F1.
(I'm going to try the Soul with either a F1J or the J2 later this year. If you upgrade the F1, I would appreciate your comments on the combo.) |
The First Watt M2 may be a better match for Soul.
I've compared the F1, J2, and M2 on 98dB 6 ohm Audio Note speakers; the M2 is more tube like and has "drive" that the F1 lacks. Even at 10WPC, Soul is underpowered using F1.
IMO
YMMV
Dealer disclaimer. |
Regiggey,
That looks very interesting to me and sounds like it may be precisely what I am looking for. The only problem is my Firstwatt was build from Mr. Pass' DIY plans by Mr. Rawson. I am not technically skilled to perform the upgrades myself, Mr. Rawson has retired and I doubt Mr. Pass would care to work on something he did not build himself...
Audiofeil,
I weigh your feedback very heavily as I realize you have quite a bit more exposure than most to Zu's speakers, but I am very surprised you feel the F1 lacks drive.
Though I have no basis for comparison, I feel as if the F1 really takes control of the driver. Based upon your experience with the F1 and Zu speakers, I am curious as to what you feel is missing.
To my ears the amp doesn't sound soft at all offering very strong bass performance and a clean uncongested mir-range. Its very dynamic and keeps great PRaT.
I'm very curious as to what more power would bring because to my, admittedly less experienced ears, this amp sounds darn powerful.
I'd love to try the higher end First Watt but its a bit out of my budget at the moment... Perhaps you have an outstanding lower cost recommendation? Phil made a compelling case for el34/el84 amps. |
You'd have to hear the difference; words are insufficient. However, at 10WPC, the Soul is underpowered.
BTW, PRaT is a joke. |
I have a loaner Virtue Audio TWO.2 that should arrive this week through a tour on Audiocircle. I suppose that will be an opportunity to hear what extra power can do as I believe that puts out 55wpc into 8ohms.
What do you mean "PRaT is a joke"? I understand the term to be essentially the swing factor of a component--the toe tapping factor. If two sources are playing the same piece and have a similar tonal balance (not just a more forward midrange or similar catching ones attention) but one just has a faster attack, better fun factor and is just more musically satisfying, I equate that with PRaT.
Maybe I'm using the wrong word but an example of this would be the Meridian G08 I formerly owned (not PRaTy IMO) compared with the Berendsen CDP-1 (think GaMut)I recently sold. To me the Meridian sounded kinda slow and dead while the Berendsen was alive and nimble. |
>>To me the Meridian sounded kinda slow and dead while the Berendsen was alive and nimble.,,
And to the next guy it may be the reverse so he wouldn't be tapping his toes would he? So "PRaT" to him would have an entirely different meaning.
You made my point. Thank you
PRaT is a joke. But so are musical, organic et. al.
IMO
YMMV |
"BTW, PRaT is a joke."
I would love to learn from your opinion/experience in relation to your statement Audiofeil.
It is always enlightening to hear someone's take on such things.
BR
James |
I'm not sure I did make your point. I would agree with you that toe tapping is a bad way to put it but certainly you would agree that timing is not equal for all gear and despite similar measurements, our ears can detect the difference between something resolving faster and something a little slower and more laid back--a recent examples I've had personal experience with would be like a Dynavector 17D2 vs a Koetsu Rosewood Sig.
Granted many people will prefer the Koetsu, but would you at least agree there is a difference in the Pace Rhythm and timing? |
I thinks it's a waste of time to debate and/or discuss meaningless/nebulous terms such as PRaT, organic, musical, etc.
They are purely subjective and listener dependent.
Thanks and good luck. |
Anyone else get their Superflys yet? I'm surprised there has been next to no feedback from anyone else. I called Zu today about going up for an audition and was told that the next batch of Souls are being burned in right now and should be shipped in about two weeks. |
Audiofeil,
Surely the whole point of audio forums like this is to assist in refining the use of subjective language. If you don't have subjective language then you're left with what? Measurements? It hardly needs saying that we don't measure audio by objective standards so what else are we left with?
The reality is that just because has different meanings to different people does not in itself render the term invalid. Pain is also subjective. Does that mean it's nit there or that some commonality cannot be found?
When Phil talked of the darkness of Druids I knew what he meant and he explairned it further for those who didn't. I have Naim kit which in the past has been all about PRAT although arguably less so nowadays. These terms are all subjective. What else would you replace them with to articulate the strengths and wesknessesof kit?
Mike |
Fair enough, Audiofeil.
I would add though that I wasn't so much trying to debate right vs. wrong as much as I wanted to effectively communicate my own (subjective) preferences to try and establish a point of reference for associated equipment recommendations. |
I've got a Virtue Audio TWO.2 with external battery pack in place and will offer some feedback on that with the Souls in the next couple days. Very interested to see how they respond to the extra power. |
>>However, at 10WPC Soul is underpowered.<<
Ten watts per channel would be too few for me but I think as a blanket statement this isn't a valid claim. I'm pretty sure Bill is extrapolating frm his experience with Druid & Essence rather than actually having set up and heard Superfly. But if your room is not too vast and your specific 10/10w amp has enough drive, 10 watts per side may be quite satisfying on Superfly.
Though Druid & Soul are rated same in their efficiency spec, dynamically Superfly sounds jumpier and audibly more lively than Druid. Further, Superfly's deeper & better bass response yields a better sense of completeness at a given volume level, where the Druid listener might turn up SPL in an effort to get the same satisfaction, closer to maxing out the amp's dynamic headroom.
10 watts are 10 watts as we measure them, but as we hear them differences arise for reasons too numerous to detail in a message written on an iPad from a beach. For example, I put a vintage Bedini 25/25 class a amp on Druids and found it dynamically outclassed by an 8w/ch (if that) Acoustic Masterpiece M101 single ended KT88 amp. The amp/speaker relationship with a Zu single FRD speaker involved is far more influential than with most mainstream audiophiles speakers. You don't have the Apogee problem of some amps not working or blowing up. Instead almost anything works but some combinations are extraordinary and yield performance well exceeding spec-driven expectations.
Hence Gerritt and his love for the Yamamoto A-08.
If I had to guess, I'd venture that the First Watt amp for Superfly is the M2. But I have little doubt Gopher is getting real music from his FW-F amp. Superfly is the liveliest Zu speaker to date, and my preferences put aside, I can understand the 10 watts buyer not wanting a single watt more, if the rest of the amp is special on this speaker.
Phil |
Hi Phil,
Every post you write I find very interesting and a joy to read, your explanations of your experiences and the effects on the Zu FRD are clear and concise.
Look forward to your next post.
Best regards
James |
Phil, or indeed others who may be able to comment. One of the things I haven't seen here is how people might define the Superfly in relation to the Presence. Anyone care to comment?
Mike |
I've received my Superflys and have been enjoying them immensely.
Regarding amplifier selections, I'm very interested in Atma-sphere to go along with m Bent Tap-X Autoformer passive. Wondering if the Atma M60's would be overkill with the 101 db Superflys.
Also, like the idea of the Yamamoto A-08S, however Sean at Zu highly recommends the 16 ohm output transformer option with this amp in order to get a good solid "2 watts" output power.
Comments appreciated
Dave |
Mahughes,
I strongly suggest that you not bother to try to entice Bill Feil into a rational argument. He's completely incapable of it. Why? Because he views his opinions as fact (regardless of disclaimer), and anyone who disagrees is automatically an audio idiot. I offer as evidence a recent 'discussion' with him, in which he claimed that my system 'sucks' (in spite of his never having heard the speakers, nor am I sure about what else he's not auditioned). Feil has opinions on everything, even on gear that he has never experienced.
There is no question in my mind that certain gear provides a greater 'jump factor', which I believe is largely due to dynamic capability i.e. the ability to swing from pp to ff quickly - just as live music does. Whether you call it PRAT - or Joe or Bob or Bill - is immaterial. The effect is there, and I believe that it's part and parcel of a better audio illusion. |
Dspringham - I highly recommend Atmasphere with Zu. You can happily use S30 with the Superfly, and any other Zu 'speakers because the high impedance makes a perfect match for OTL. Unless you need the extra power of the M60 monoblocks, stick with S30 and go for an Atmasphere preamp first - I believe it outperforms any passive, but I AM biased because we represent Atmasphere in the UK and I absolutely love the combination.
DISCLAIMER - we represent Zu and Atmasphere in the UK. Hopefully I've not offended anyone by posting. |
>>One of the things I haven't seen here is how people might define the Superfly in relation to the Presence.<<
I've had a pair of Presence in my own system for more than a day during a Zu Los Angeles tour. Presence was not a "Griewe" model speaker but it was sort of a "Druid with Sub" in that it had a single FRD and supertweet, ala Druid, with a half-Definition sub-bass array. It was the least jumpy Zu speaker but had near-Definition levels of deep bass performance.
Presence sounded very smooth, still retaining the overall euphonic "darkness" of the Druid sound, but never sounded quite as light on its feet as Druid. Overall, if amplified well, Presence scales and is quite complete in the music it can represent well. But being fairly flat down to about 30 Hz, Superfly's bass has none of the trace disconnect between main driver and integrated subs, and has plenty of bass energy for most domestic rooms. Superfly will sound faster, jumpier, more vivid and immediate than Presence. Presence will sound more relaxed and stately and more euphonically shaded in its tone.
Presence is larger and more difficult to accommodate in many rooms. It's $8,000 vs. $2,600. I do much prefer Presence to Essence but also prefer Superfly to Essence. Presence was more Def Jr. than Super Druid, so a lot of its advantage is in laying the solid foundation of truly deep bass if your room can make use of it, while the main band had all the great tone and focus attributes of Druid. The X factor here is, how would Presence sound with the Superfly FRD and appropriate revision to its supertweeter and associated filter? Presence upgraded in Superfly fashion should be formidable in its own right and clearly better than Superfly alone, including for reasons of the broad, smooth front baffle.
Phil |
Sam7,
I'm keeping my eyes open for a used s-30 at a good price. It seems like some people have really loved it with Zu speakers in the past. How much heat do they realistically put off?
I'm experimenting now with a Virtue Audio TWO.2 amplifier with Sonicaps and battery power. I was told it had 50-60 hours on it previously and I've put another 24 on. I don't want to criticize it just yet as there may be some additional burn in necessary, but I'm thinking twice about class d for the Souls. The sound is detailed but really lacking in dynamics, drive and delicacy. My F1 has 1/5th the power and exhibits far better control over the drivers.
The tables may change with burn in, but I greatly prefer my First Watt F1's presentation thus far. I'll be out of town for the weekend, so I'll log some major hours on them and actually leave my Zu's cranked for once (wife is home on maternity leave during days so my burn in has been mostly 'real time) and see how it sounds come Monday.
I purchased a Dynaco ST-70 on Gerrit's advice and Phil's el34 endorsement. I am hoping to see that by the middle of next week and will comment on the pairing shortly. |
Gopher, I've been an Atma-Sphere S30 owner for many years and just recently had them upgraded to 3.1 status.
Regarding how hot they run, it's my understanding that they run slightly hotter, around 5-10%, than class A solid state amps of equivalent wattage. With the S30's 30 watts/ch it is a nonissue.
I am currently using the S30 with coincident total victory's with great results. I've never heard the superfly's but on paper it's a match made in heaven. With the superfly's 16 ohm impedance the S30 would be coasting putting out appox. 40 watts/ch.
Enjoy the st70 for now and when funds/availability allows you can upgrade. |
Gopher - I second Franks' response. Also, bear in mind that if you don't need all the power of the S30, you can run it effectively with some of the output tubes removed - we've run it very happily into Zu Essence with only three tubes per channel, instead of the full five. Simon |
Phil,
Thanks very much for that. Having heard every Zu floorstander I entirely agree with your descriptions and am very much looking forward to my Superfly. I heard enough of Druids to have bought them were it not for the Fun Prevention Officer demanding a robust dishwasher at the time. I cursed Zu for ending production when they did :)
I do wonder in retrospect whether the Druids denoed endlessly by my dealer were 4.08 or earlier as, to me, they very much retained that euphonic darkness. I must check that out with them sometime. Heard the Presence there too and was equally mesmerised by it although the cost was even more prohibitive to me at the time.
Anyway, thank you very much for sharing. It's been extremely reassuring in confirming that I may just have purchased a speaker for life. That was my plan for the Druid and that's my plan for Superfly all being well.
Mike |
Hi Mike,
The Druids that the Audio Counsel were demming were the 4.08.
The weekend we did the Zu, back in 2008, was brilliant. The Presence and the Druid really stood out.
To me the more we listened to the Definitions I started to drift off thinking about the Druids or the Presence.
I think the charm of the Druid and my Essence, is that they are not imediately impressive, they sneak up on you with their charms and slowly win you over.
If I have not thanked Sean at Zu and Simon at Musicology for getting the Presence over for that day, many thanks, it was a great day.
In the UK, we have to thank Simon from Musicology for discovering the Zu speakers, and for Dave at the Audio Counsel in Manchester for stumbling across the Druids when he visited Simon in 2007.
For me I certainly would not have learnt about Zu loudspeakers if Audio Counsel had not come across them and brought them to my attention.
Even today, my dealer is more than happy to pop in to set up my system after a recent DIY spree, you can't buy that sort of customer service.
Sorry for taking the thread slightly off track.
James |
Yes, I must say that I can recall a bunch if cynical men of varying (but not that varying) ages listening to Hugh Masakela on the Presence. At the end there was just a silence and someone quietly commented that that was as good as they'd heard anywhere to hushed agreement. That was the only time I'd heard Presence and I was mightily impressed, however, the key I think was that I'd already heard rhe Druids and the Druids were slow as stated to reveal their charms. Indeed it was only when replaced by Sonus Faber as I recall that the penny dropped.
Interestingly, we also heard them when they were off ie not quite happy with their position or possibly being shunted around. Had I heard just that I would have fallen into the okay but nothing special camp. However, later in the day they settled and for me were nothing less than mesmerising.
Bring on the Superfly :)
mike |
Brings back good memories of the day, I remember someone working out if he sold his power supplies, headphones, headphone amp and one of his kidneys, he could just afford the Zu Presence.
It was really strange with the Druids that day, they did not like being shunted about, and were mesmerising once they were sat in one place for a hour or so.
The Superfly are going to be very interesting based on Phil's reports so far.
It's going to be a very long few weeks........... |
