213cobra:
One question I was hoping you could shed light on.
The freq graph on Zu's website for the Superfly is remarkably flat. So flat I do not believe it. And so flat in HF that it makes me nervous (as in the past I have not liked very flat high HF -- strange I know).
Do you believe those numbers?
Not that numbers are everything, or at times, anything.
I am just surprised that the small changes they have made created such a different frequency graph |
phil:
yes, i know that infamous graph, but i am not a graph-only guy (or i would not have druid).
i was thinking of essence stereophle graph which was pretty ragged too. soul looked so flat i cannot believe it.
TIM, try get better sound by jim smith. great book |
Miklorsmith:
I agree. I originally had the druids spiked to the carpet, but then put it on wood boards which sat on the carpet. made a big difference. In the future, I may swap the wood for stone.
One benefit of the wood was that I coulde slide the speakers about easily. Druids are very directional, and tiny differences to toe in and position made a huge difference to soundstage/imaging.
My room is large and impossible to fully charge. I liked the druid directionality because it enabled me to bypass some of the problems I had in the large room. |
Phil:
Here is the stereophile link:
stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/zu_essence_loudspeaker/index5.html
If you ignore HF what you have left is FRD. Note that the measurement taken both with and without the plinth.
So we have huge suckout at 60 Hz, and I hear freakiness on my Druid at 60Hz too, and another at around 150Hz. This was more surprising to me as I like very much how Druid sound in midrange. Anyway, this is bass loading and FRD sweet spot -- both ragged and unbalanced octave to octave *by the numbers* (which only tells you a little about sound).
Your point about how it actually sounds and measures in your home is 1000% correct and too often ignored by those who obsess with graphs. Especially in base, room interaction dominates speaker etc. |
Phil:
Yes, the Stereophile review was positive, and please, I keep saying i am not a numbers guy.
I'm just pointing out that when you look at third party measurements of Essence FRD in its frequency zone they look very little like the Zu measurements of the Soul FRD in the same frequency zone. Given that the drivers are similar, it is remarkable -- although of course the driver is not identical.
I'm not a "measurement is everything" guy and Zu is not a "measurement is everything" speaker -- this is all very good. But Zu was bitten in butt by measurement in the past, and I would hate for a third party reviewer to run their measurement, and it not look like the ironing table Zu has on their site for this speaker.
Am I being a jerk for saying "Zu is too perfect!!"? Maybe, although that is not my intention. I am big fan of company and speakers. I am simply pointing out that this change is so dramatic, I'd love to see it verified by an independent third party even though I will trust my own EARS for how the speaker sounds, which is distinct from how it measures.
I disagree with you that Zu works well in widest range of rooms. I think EVERY speaker seriously needs care with placement to get the most out of it. The number of bad installations I have seen are ridiculous, and while it may be more fun to buy new hardware, spending a weekend (or month) sweating while you carry your speakers about the place will do more for sound. Sweat beats money. The port tuning does reduce one variable and that legitimately makes things easier of course. |
Phil:
LOL! I agree! I very much like Zu's philosophy of HiFi being something that lives where you do. My Zu's live in my living room, with TV in between. But it means the whole family listens to them ALL THE TIME and we keep the TV off. It is a better life.
Still, I would recommend Jeff's book. For one thing, it helped me get alignment and toe-in perfect, and there is one spot on the couch that has the best presentation, although it is OK in the rest of the room as well (but the sweet spot is much sweeter). Given how directional Zu's are, the toe in and alignment really does matter. I think people who are dissappointed by Zu sound have not spent enough time on this element of placement.
Secondly, and more importantly, Jeff's book helped me understand how much of my sound is because of my room and how much is because of the speaker, and how the two are interconnected. It got me off the "upgrade" treadmill, I am not seeking "better" because I understand and accept very well the limitations of my system and know that new speakers, amps, or cables is not the weak component. |
Avonessence: I have druids in standard matt black, which may be similar to cosmic graphite, and i think they look very nice.
Phil: Did not mean to open can of worms with my question. And let me stress again, I do not care too much about the graphs, and I very much like Zu for tone and dynamics.
Better integration with supertweeter would definitely help with freq response in HF.
But I do not think it tells us about 60Hz-200Hz! This though is being ridiculous as in room measurement at seated position is what is important here and that will vary room to room. |
And I appreciate you looking into this, and Sean for clarifying! Sean is one of the good guys for sure. |
Gopher
congrats on your speakers! I second Phil's recommnendation on 20W-60W, tube if possible.
I don't this Druids at any rate did their best with very low W amps. I also tried First Watt and did not keep for that reason. |
Gopher:
it depends on your room. mine us huge, and zu themselves say in large rooms you are better off with more watts!
Still though, I think in general, people think Zu's do fine with 2W-3W amps and, unless you are playing them in closet, I simply do not agree.
still, if you were happy with Abbys then Zus should be fine as well. Tonal density is much greater, as you have noticed, but you also need to turn up volume more than you would think for such high sensitivity speakers. I think Phil's point about impedence explains this. |
Biggest potential dissappointment with Zu Speakers is that it does not have HF extension, and so does not create hi-fi "air" "detail" "pin-point imaging" etc.
Personally, I find all of that stuff totally fake and do not like it. But it is to hi-fi taste, which is why we have all these terrible sounding piston speakers out there. Still, if you like that sound you will know it, and it was what Zu was chasing with the Essence.
With my druid setup in very large room, I think Zu needs more watts than Phil suggests. You will need to make your own call. Also, in my room, I have suckout at upper bass, which makes presentation dry. I have engaged various strategies to fix that with placement etc. I totally disagree with people who say speakers should be "unfussy about placement" simply because, at lower frequency, you will have room interaction and either it is working for you or working against you. Druids benefitted greatly from placement but did not need much treatment, soul are less directional so maybe they need more treatment but less placement help?
Finally, i find, contra phil, that on really massive orchestral work at high volume they overload poor single driver somewhat.
Still, scads better than most other speakers and a great price. |
Glad you like the Ctaudio15.
I was actually in the same place when I bought my first Zus. Did not know much about speakers, repaired 30 year old speakers I bought from neighbours when they were cleaning out their garage, and now me and my family are listening to more music than ever before.
*If* you become interested in improving your sound further, I would suggest exploring careful placement and setup before spending money on gear. As you may or may not have noticed, this area is packed with people who obsess about gear, and there is very little discussion of music or actual sound. I have learned more about how to hear sound through experimenting with placement than reading any number of posts about "which speaker is best" etc. etc.
Zus play great loud : ) |
KeithR:
Please! I am very happy with Druid HF extension because I do not like what I feel is exaggerated, unnatural HF extension which defines "hi fi" today. If Soul has HiFi extension it is not for me, although looking at super tweeter I would not expect it is so. This is maybe #1 reason HiFi people do not like Zu's. I hope nothing has changed in this respect with Soul.
Maybe I would not like Definitions based on what you suggest about their sound?
Second main reason people do not like Zu's is you get potentially dry presentation with suckout at upper bass. You can do things to fix this, but it can happen, especially if your room is working against you in this freq. range. This is a more serious problem, but then Zu has these very flat curves for Soul and it is possible new driver behaves better in this critical region.
Third main reason people dislike Druid at least is bass is not great at 30Hz, and is freak at 60Hz. I think this 70% room and 30% loading, and I can believe that new loading in Soul is better here. This is area I am most interested in actually
I think Zu's have been set-up to their disadvantage by people saying they are friendly to flea-amp SETs. In real world it is just not so. If expectation had been set correctly, I think people would be perfectly satisfied with Zu amp matching, it's just that they think 2W SET is a good idea and then wonder why it does not sound right.
PHIL: Druids are perfectly fine off axis, or setup without care. But in order to have them sound their best, you need to take care. That is all.
For people who do not care how speakers sound, then they should by $200 polk. For Zus, I play in living room, and when I don't care, walking around etc., they sound fine. But, when I sit in listening position they sound great.
There is no speaker that can sound great if you do not care about setup. It is not possible. And if you do not care about sounding great, then stick with table radio of those free white buds you get with iPod.
Maybe music lover who cannot be bothered with setup is actively listening to music where actual sound is not so important. Again, I wonder why they bother buying $2000 speakers.
But coming back to Bjesien question -- he asked something honest and reasonable and we should do our best to answer it honestly and reasonable too. |
Phil:
It is perfectly OK that we have different opinions about speakers, music, Zu etc. That is what makes hobby fun.
However, I feel that we do not do Zu, or any speaker, any favors by not being honest about its function. If Bjesien looks elsewhere, he will find many Zu critics. Some of them have good points, some don't, but many of their criticisms come from bad implementation/expectation. Ignoring all of this does not help Bjesien or Zu.
So, you will see people complaining about dynamics when, in fact, they are running them with flea amps and Zus, while sensitive, are simply not that sensitive. Maybe horns will work with 2W SET. Not Zus.
You will see people complain about dry, cardboard presentation (and not the "magical midrange" which Zu is supposed to give). This is usually because they experience same upper bass suckout that I do and have done nothing about it.
You will see people complain about lack of foundation and weak bass. This is because speakers need to be pushed towards wall and corner, or maybe be put in smaller room. Or have improved Greiwe loading. Again, wrong setup.
You will see people complaining about ragged highs or poor imaging. Or flat presentation. This has always, I have found, been due to incorrect toe-in. Easy to fix, but we are talking milimiter movements.
You will hear people complain about lack of detail, resolution, or air. This is because they have "hi-fi" taste, which Zus (thank Gods) do not deliver. With exception of Essence.
Very occasionally, you will hear people complain about congestion at high level. This I think is simply consequence of FRD topology. There is simply no solution unless you go multi-driver, and that opens up problems of phase, time, crossover, sensitivity, integration, etc. etc. Take your poison. For me, it is no brainer, Zu all the way.
Look, I am huge Zu fan. But I am also honest about them! I buy them, I recommend others buy them.
If you put Zus in room without care then you will not get their tonal honesty in midrange, or dynamic life. They will sound good, but nothing special. That is what my Zus sound like off axis, good, but not special. So they will ask "why all the hype?"
If you do not care about placement, you lose tonal honesty because you get suckout in upper bass and HF does not resolve correctly. So, you get watered down fundamental right where you want it most plus screwed up harmonics -- where is your tone gone? Add a flea amp, and your dynamic life dies as well. So, people listen to this and say "Zus are bad speakers". Total shame and so unnecessary. And please note, nowhere do I mention "audiophile imaging" as I don't care about imaging at all.
An audiophile who does not care about placement should just buy headphones. Or stick with listening to Kenny G. It makes no sense for someone who plans to just "plop them down" to pay extra $800 and buy Soul Superfly over Soul standard. Maybe Zu should make Soul SuperDuperfly, and charge and extra $800 for them for people who really don't care about actual sound.
Let me give you typical example. You have people with speakers, one in corner, one against just wall. Corner loaded speaker is +2db at listening position. But they do not test this, and do not adjust balance to make up for corner loading.
That's fine, maybe they don't know, maybe they don't care, maybe it does not get in the way of their enjoyment of Kenny G.
But, would anyone buy speaker where left channel is 5db louder than right? Would anyone pay extra for speaker where one channel is louder than the other? Would you say "tone is so real, I do not care that left speaker is louder than right speaker!" Maybe you would, I cannot say. But ridiculousness of situation is obvious to me. Audiogon is full of people who go one about "detail, slam, air etc. etc." but seem deaf to fact that left ear is listening to whisper while right ear is listening to speech. It must be magic of Kenny G's dulcet tones. |
LOL!
HK3490 will be step up from what I have now. I am serious, it's the amp I'm going to get.
The horn mounted supertweeter means Soul will probably still be pretty directional, so toe-in will make big difference to how soundstage resolves. You can do this in your space.
Druids with whizzer were even more directional, so once you were toed in and correct from wall etc. you were done. Since Soul has wider dispersion, I would consider placing small treatment in 1st order reflection on walls, but only if you fear attack is not as clear as it could be (time smeared)
Sweet spot is small with Zu's -- this is actually good thing. Big sweet spots do not exist IMO. |
I have been singularly unimpressed by classD amplification, whether $30 t-amp or $1000 Rotel. They both sound the same, except Rotel has more watts (it's ICE implementation).
with classD, I say, don't spend money on fancy implementation. It all sounds classD. |
Paulfolbrecht:
It is entirely possible I will not be able to tell the difference between those amps I mention. After I hear them, I will say one way or the other.
I can hear strain with low power t-amp (below ~50 WPC) which I do not hear with 100 WPC Rotel ICE implementation, but what can I say. Class-d sounds like class-d.
I mean, we have people who say Zu's work with 3W flea amps, and people who say 3-6db difference between left and right channel make no difference, and toe-in (for massively directional HF speakers) makes no difference. So you can add to that list a guy who says class-d sounds like class-d no matter how much you pay for its. |
Phil:
I am so sorry. When you said "you'd be surprised about the number of people for whom a 5db difference of any kind just doesn't register" I thought you meant I'd be surprised about the number of people for whom a 5db difference of any kind just doesn't register.
It seems that what you actually meant was that a "3-6db difference between left and right channels" *does* make a difference.
And class-d suddenly sounds better when you pay quadruple digits for it, but a wheezing congested midrange as 3 puny watts fails to power high-90 low-100 speaker is fine to those "willing to live within their limits" because people are enamored so of their watts, and care nothing for the sound it products. |
Paulfolbrecht:
It is certainly possible I will hear a class-d that does not sound like another class-d. I hope it sounds better.
I am merely stating fact that tri-path sounded as good (or bad) as $1000 Rotel.
I am not one of those people who thinks just because it costs more it is good.
PHIL: Non-audiophile people who don't notice and don't care are probably better served by $500 polks or $100 speakers available at any garage sale than $2000 Souls. Anyone who cares enough about sound to spend for the Souls really should care enough for at least modest placement.
I shake my head that you recommend tiny triode monoblock for Soul. Whomever follows up this advise is setting themselves up for disappointment. Unless of course they seek a congested midrange, and again, I point them to $500 polks (actually, $200 polk monitor so you can truly enjoy that choked sound). Well whatever. Maybe Curious_george is from the "plop them down" school of thought and does not care whether left is louder than right. That is his business of course.
Miklorsmith: 45W is OK. 5 or 8 is just not. |
Phil:
You seem to have me confused with salesperson or marketer. I am neither. I am a Zu fan, and I think that they would benefit from people being more honest about their products.
A non-audiophile music lover should stick with their 128kb mp3 and their ipod earbuds. Not that they need my encouragement to do this, as they are doing it already.
Anyone who is thinking about dropping $2K for speakers should care about sound, otherwise they are simply fool with money who wants to show off. In that case, there are flashier looking (and sounding) speakers I would point them to.
So you want to spend $2K, and you care about sound, and you are considering Soul. Good. That person can now read discussion between me and you and make up own mind about what is helpful and what is not.
Contrary to you, I do not think this individual should not care about placement or flea watts. Room interaction and time smear with high dispersion soul FRD will blur attack and kill sustain. You will have no tone left, or very unremarkable tone, just as my Druids are off axis. There will be nothing to appreciate.
Flea watts kill dynamics with congested midrange at very low listening levels. Now, maybe some people don't care about a midrange sounding like a chest cold -- their taste of course -- but it will not seem "dynamic" to anyone. If someone has small room then OK, they can go to 30W or better 40W and might be OK. And please, my issue with flea watt has nothing to do with level. The congestion has to do with ease and comes long before you are anywhere close to clipping.
While Souls eliminate fiddling with gap height (which I like) I fear higher dispersion FRD will require additional room treatment (which I do not). But I have not heard so cannot say.
It is interesting you say Souls are "substantially more likely" than Druid as people went on and one about how lively Druids were. This must by massive hyperactivity. Although they are both rated 101dbW, in practise my Druids sounded like mid to high 90s, so it is possible that Souls are more sensitive even though their "official" rating is the same.
If Miklorsmith likes Deficitions at 2W all I can say is his tastes differ widely from my own. I would not recommend his path to anyone.
Anyone who comes here from Google Bing whatever: you should get Soul as they represent excellent value and are wonderful speaker. But, to get your $2K value you will have to care about placement. I am sorry. But I hope you will find it rewarding like me, as I learned so much about music through this. And for gods sake, get amp with at least 40W |
Gopher: Good for you, and you are 100% correct, most people including audiophiles do not put in effort.
You can see this clearly here on audiogon. Lots of discussion over what is best $1000 interconnect, no discussion on fact that corner loaded left channel is 3-6db louder than wall loaded right channel. Much of "audiophile" should rename itself "gearfetish".
Phil: It seems you are dead set on setting up potential Soul owner for disappointment. I cannot dissuade you. There is no tone without proper alignment, it is dead. And I will not honor your "loud preamp" argument with response. If you want dead tone with the type of "dynamic" you get with loud pre-amp, and pay $3K+ for pleasure, then please do buy Soul, plops down, and pay flea watt tubes. Phil will appear and try to sell you more stuff. |
Audiofeil: Thank you for injecting some reality into discussion!
Suppose you have high power SET with Zu? Like aleph 60? I would like to think problems I have heard with Zu & SET are the obviously inadequate W, not anything to do with topology of SET which I think will work well for speaker. |
Phil: I take sound-centric position, not gear centric position. Placement and room is how your low MF, upper bass, and bass will sound, regardless of amps. I also have not heard good results with some of the amps you recommend AND I disagree with your pre-amp suggestion.
Soul is "big tent" speaker but so is $500 polks. Frankly, I like them more than most hi-fi speakers costing 10x. But to each their own. $500 polk floorstander will sound better than plastic earbud when playing mp3
Mike: Soul is a mystery because so few people have heard them. We have Phil's description (which, despite fact Phil and I disagree on other things I am grateful for) and a happy customer in Gopher.
We can also only make comparison to Essence and Druid. Essence has similar FRD, but clearly it is very different as anechoic reading on Zu site for Soul is so different from same reading in stereophile for Essence. So even though they look the same, it seems they are quite different. Supertweeter is welcome return to Druid. Port loading is closer to Essence than Druid, but most different.
Based on just these, I cannot say soul is easier to setup than druid. With Druid you needed to care about port loading and toe in. Its very directional FRD meant you did not need to worry about first order reflection. With Soul you can forget about port loading, but supertweeter still needs toe in care and it has wider FRD, so now you need to care about first order reflection when before you didn't.
Keithr: Nothing silly about caring about sound and paying attention to room. What is silly is paying $1000 for cables and arguing about pre-amps while you have 120Hz suckout, left channel 5db louder than right, and massive timesmear. We listen to a combination of speakers + rooms and the industry has yet to create a speaker system that manages rooms in a truly easy way. It would be, I imagine, something with omni bass, plus very directional HF, plus some kind of automatic dEQ. I do not like dipole bass (which can get pretty omni) nor do I like dEQ, but this would be true "plop it down" system. Bose I imagine might have something like this but I have no interest in them either. |
Phil: Yes -- audessey was what I was trying to remember. I don't know if they have well integrated with any reasonable price floorstander yet. Either way, I have not loved the sound of any dEQ system but this is matter of taste.
It is fine you don't agree about importance of room and placement. Enjoy playing with your amps and preamps. And cables.
Also, listing a bunch of incorrect room/hall treatments says nothing about correct room. There is no shortage of stupidty and consequently bad results in this world.
Curious_george: I think you made very good choice buying Soul speaker. I am very eager to learn what you think when they finally make it to you.
Also please, placement is something you can do more of or less of within constraints, just like everything else in audio. My druids too are in family room with two year old and newborn, they are not in dedicated mancave. (unfortunately).
But still, even within this very domestic environment, they are carefully setup to make most of sweet spot which is in particular spot on couch. And difference in quality has taken me from dissappointing sound to perfectly enjoyable sound. If I move from sweet spot, I get back to dissappointing sound but that is OK for me, it is not bad, just not what I had hoped for given buzz around Zu. So casual listening, speaker just play and I am doing whatever. Active listening, I must be in sweet spot. Sweet spot is only big enough for 1 btw.
Distance from corner and back wall (had to move them closer) improve base. Distance apart (had to move them closer) improve tonal density. Putting on wood base improve base over carpet. millimeter toe-in did wonders for sound stage and HF. Very careful measurement gave me equal SPL both channel, and equal distance from ear (again, millimeter level). My room eats bass, so had to add sub. Positioning that took hours. Then integrated it via careful phase, volume, and digital delay. Did not need first order reflection changes on top, left, and right because of topography for room and fleece blanket over table (easily removed) solved it for bottom.
So there you have it! It is not crazy "audiophile" mancave with zero WAF but perfectly ordinary looking living room with two speakers in them used every day. However, placement of everything is millimeter precise to optimize sound of system and it make big difference. It create tonal quality (which dies off axis in non-optimized spot) and it maximized dynamic (which I still don't love from very expensive Rotel ICE amp). More importantly for all of this, it was through placement that I learn about my system and sound it makes. If you want to understand "tone" then working to optimize for it will teach you more than 100 audigon forum posts.
I know exactly what strengths and weaknesses of my system are, I know exactly why it sounds like it does, and I know exactly what parts of sound are coming from room, coming from speaker, and coming from room/speaker interaction. Therefore, I know exactly what I need to do to improve sound. Gear alone will never give you this insight and knowledge into your own playback. Taking responsibiity of speaker/room interaction is first step of taking ownership over your own sound. It gets you off the gear train, which I personally have no interest in but other people seem to enjoy fetishizing (to each their own).
Avonessence: Looking forward to your review!
Naggots: It is the new FRD I am most interested in. My instinct is not to love wider dispersion but Zu knows what it is doing in FRD so I am very curious. |
Gopher: I did not like sound of druid on spikes in carpet. My room eats enough bass as it is, this made things much worse. I did not get the "more planted" sound that Phil refers to, my bass was just even more eaten.
I also cannot tell you what wood planks I put them on. I cannot say if it was seasoned maple, norweigen birch ply, or high-quality MDF held together by glue made from thoroughbread stallions and the prayers of buddhist monks. It was just planks for hard wood I had lying around and I use it. Another benefit of the wood was that it made moving the speakers very easy, something that is quite hard with big spikes.
If I try this again in the future, I am interested to see what an even denser material like stone might do over wood. I think it is density of material that may be having effect, not "firmsness of planting". What is driving my thought here is how speaker sounds different put on slab floor instead of raised floor with cavity underneath.
And good job finding right position for supertweeter. This made big difference for me as well, and as you see, it makes you rethink what else you need to change in your playbacks!
Mike_cole: I mostly listen at lower volumes, sadly. I would like to play loud more often. They do very well at low and high volume, if you have sufficient watts. |
I think it is entirely reasonable that this thread be for those who receive Soul and can provide report. |
Gopher: Phil does not believe that room impacts sound, especially in bass.
Therefore, he says that what you put your Souls on does not matter. It is "floor height insensitive' because it say so on the box.
In reality, put different speaker on carpet, wood, stone, you hear difference in bass.
Also, height of speaker can have impact on what you hear because super tweeter is very directional, and that impact tonal balance.
This is not about controlling gap height (which happen in druid) but about placement and room interaction effecting tone. |
Naggot: Can you tell us more about your room setup? How directional have you set Druid FRD?
I am very curious about how new Soul FRD work for someone who, for room reasons, has used Druid FRD very directional. |
Picture of omen frd does not look like Druid frd |
Naggots: It is interesting. You listen standing up, which unless you are very short places your ears much above top of speaker. In sitting position, ear is between center of FRD (tweeter) and supertweeter which seems more sensible to me for tonal accuracy.
Also, it is excellent you have dual mini methods. I wish I had two subs like this, but I just have one. I am curious as to why you are interested in having sound good in all positions, ie. have bass be smooth while walking around. I think this is very difficult to achieve and is certainly not sonic goal of mine. My bass sucks outside of listening position and is OK in listening position. But when I am in listening position I pay attention, and when I am walking around I am usually also doing something else.
My suspicion is that wide dispersion FRD will improve sound at all positions but make sound worse in listening position. Not interesting to me in and of itself, although I could do things to my room to limit this effect and other parts of it might be good depending on whether how much dispersed sound was, say very high upperbass/midrange and below vs. above.
I am very interested in how reported measured smoothness of FRD compare to Druid FRD which measures ragged (and I only between above upper bass but below HF where Greiwe loading and essence tweeter should not be issue). What problems do you hear in your current set-up that you are specificlly hoping new Soul FRD will help address. Looking forward to learning more!
Phil: You say one thing, then you say opposite thing. This zig and zag you do, it is like talking to serpent. |
Yes. There is something to be said about separate LF and mains. Or even separate LF, bass, and mains if you have tools to re-integrate.
Anyway, eager to hear your report. |
Mike -- I can go through Phil's posts and pull out contradictory quotes. I have no interest in doing so, and Phil will probably squeal that I am taking him out of context. Worse, I will have to actually read them again and seeing "just plop them down" repeated along with long shopping list of components is of no interest to me. My preference is to talk about sound, not gear. |
Phil: Despite my jibes at you and our disagreements, I really do appreciate the factual data you share about Souls. And yes, distinctions like wide vs widER dispersement is exactly area I am curious about in new FRD.
I also very much appreciate the knowledge you get from Zu folks, who I like very much.
I do not feel Druid is "beamy" in negative auditory sense, it just has very directional HF (thank Gods!) And my room isolation strategy is not driven by my preference for that sort of sound, it is just the strategy I need to take to get best sound for me given limitations of my room and my life. |
Gopher,
"I'm really confused as to why Zu speakers have been so controversial over the years."
Because:
A- They do not have "hi-fi" top end. Hi-Fi sound has extreme resolution/exaggerated HF. This make "hi-fi" crowd not like them.
B- Measure badly, and Zu not post its own measurements. This make "engineering hi-fi" crowd not like them.
C- Setup poorly, so sounded bad (recess HF plus upperbass/MF suckout plus freakish midbass). And played with inappropriate flea-watt amplification. this make normal people not like them (although I think most speaker setup badly does not seem to hurt them all)
D- they are different.
I think D is biggest reason, C is smallest. |
People become passionate about this stuff. is OK, is part of hobby.
I think HF extension is biggest difference, Zu does not have it (which I think is much more natural than the artificial hi fi extension). They do sound different because of that.
and I don't want to open this discussion again but i think they sound lousy with flea amp. You need 40-50W minimum. |
Venicelake:
When I listen to my audio system I have very specific ideas about where it performs to my satisfaction and where it does not perform. I know what I like and do not like about my sound very clearly, and I also have clear ideas about what I want as next step. In general, I do not like trying any new component without knowing first what I want component to do. Then I can judge by "am I closer or far?"
In my system, the problems I hear with midbass and upperbass have little to do with Zu Druid and mostly to do with room. The problem I hear in tone up and down again have little to do with Druid and mostly to do with amplifier (I think).
Therefore, my next investment will be focused on those two areas. Not on changing druid.
Still, I am intersted to hear about Soul and very much want opportunity to listen to it. Maybe I can convince friend to buy it. |
Gopher: My issue with Druids at flea-watt amps is not in bass, it is in midrange. And it has nothing to do with level.
I am surprised you like your VIRTUE. I have given up on class-d.
Themadmilkman: Yes, it is lack of exaggerated HF that make Druid sound so different from other hifi speakers, and more natural. This element I like, although I would not characterize sound as "sweet".
I do not like running druids much below 60Hz. Actually, I roll them off at 70Hz (heresey I know) and fill down to 35-40Hz with subwoofer. In large part this is requirement of room. And I am not someone who likes "slam" bass.
Did you listen to Four Season using flea-watt amp? I hate the congestion I got when W was too low. If you get more powerful amp, you will not have congestion with acoustic, full orchestra work (which is hardest test for speaker btw). Zu do perfectly credible job with this music if properly setup. |
Sorry, I miss that
$1500 list for omen
$1800 list for soul
$3500 list for superfly
???
Make no sense and not a sub $1k speaker in the lot |
Gopher
What problems do you hear in your system that you think new cables will fix and why? |
Gopher: Yes, it is exactly this path you describe that I have no interest in getting on. I learn nothing about sound this way.
Anyway, I have all solid state+DAC integrated and peachtree nova to test with druid -- i say goodbye to class-d forever! (except in subwoofer)
Also, I finally get dual sub -- both ported unfortunately but it is what my budget will allow.
Most interestingly, I make some radical changes to room. I still have lots of setup, testing, tuning etc. but I am already surprised at how much better tile under Druid makes the bass compared to even my wood planks. So much so in fact that I may try two inches of brick. |
Got email from Zu. $1000 speaker coming. |
Up on Zu. It is "Omen".
Same FRD it looks like. 98 db/w/1m. looks like wide dispersion driver in horn supertweeter -- very strange. no idea how griewe loading is implemented
$1500.
no idea what pricing for superfly is -- don't think it can be $1800. |
F1audio: I ran Druids with host of class-d amps, lost patience, and switch to peachtree nova (SS).
I also compare nova with HK3490 -- it is poor man Nova.
I do not know if it is Sabre Dac vs Burr Brown, or pre-amp stage, or MOSFET vs whatever op amp HK use, but Nova kick pants off HK. It is a good combination absolutely, and a great choice for money. For beginner/person with budget/veteran who is tired of nonsense i would recommend it.
I have tried low power tubes and do not like them on Druid. Highly overrated in my opinion. Also, I do not think push pull tube are that much better than A/B SS. So that leaves you with ~50WPC SET. At this point, I think good implementation of that difficult configuration is more important that tube vs SS. |
So, did zu sell a single soul for $1800?
They have new CEO. I wonder if he create this problem or will fix it |
Hah! So not a single, standard Soul was ever sold for $1800, and may never be sold for $1800. Is funny.
So, does Omen have internal foam wedge and also gapped plinth at bottom like Essence? |
Pull trigger and try. If you don't like, send back |
LOL!
I just got email from Zu who say standard Zu Soul pricing is $1800!
So, what is it? $1500? $1400? $1800?
what a complete mess. |
Are these the same speakers that were $999 recently? was taht a pre-order or a per-pre-order?
and i could have swong the $999 price was discount for original $1500 MSRP.
I cannot wait to see how Soul (maybe superfly, maybe not superfly) pricing evolves! |
Gopher:
Yes, you are right! Soul is now $1800 MSRP and Omen is $1500 MSRP
These prices make no sense of course. Is Soul the standard or superfly? Why would anyone get $1500 Omen instead of $1800 Soul? It is laughable. I will laugh as pricing continues to evolve. |
Gopher:
I am merely pointing out that their pricing makes no sense and is very confusing.
I am so releived to hear taht they have a long term plan. I hopes to gods it is better than their short term plan.
I have no interest in talking to Zu CEO. He really has bigger problems to focus on |
