Recommending any amplifier (or other gear), strictly based on tube kind used in that design is very brave. |
I hav heard Zu Owners say similar things about 300B amps. |
As a Zu owner (Definition II), I concur with Gopher and 213Cobra regarding 845 amps. Owning Zu speakers without hearing them through an 845, you are really missing half of the equation to fantastic sound. I've owned a lot of different topology amps with the Zu's and the 845 is the key that unlocks the magic!!
David |
The Miniwatt works very well. One's room size and volume preference will largely determine whether this amp will work for you or not, with these speakers. I don't listen loud, so the Miniwatt delivers what I need. That said, I am now curious how the speakers will perform with a few more watts behind them.
I am going in the other direction as you and am looking into trying some SS amps on these speakers. |
Magic. :)
My Chinese 845s are giving me a tonally beautiful yet vivid and exciting presentation thats just more holographic and beautiful. It may err a bit to the romantic side--not euphic/syrupy like the ST-70 I had but there is a certain magic to the presentation that makes for a more emotional listen.
My Atma-sphere S-30 came back from servicing today, its repaired and 100% and I listened for about four hours after work and it was impressive. Very transparant, dynamic and with some rolled tubes it did a nice job of tone and harmonic foundation--it also had pretty slamming bass. But for all its transparency and detail it doesn't have the magic and musicality I'm being spoiled with and I threw it up for sale on audiocircle. If it doesn't go in a day or two I'll move it here to the gon.
The Alephs are my favorite solid state option for the Souls so far. I described their merits in a prior post and stand by those impressions, but the bigger SET adds a certain reality and enjoyment I prefer to audiophile adjectives.
I've run these things with Class A SS, Class A SS transcunductance, Tripath, Class D, OTL, tube PP and SET. 845 SET is king to my ears. I don't have the vocabulary to convey the magic of the pairing like 213cobra has, but I'm very grateful he guided me this direction.
The amp juggling adventure was fun (and stressful at times), but barring catastrophe I'm done!
The major irony being, I was content with my sound initially, but wanted something cooler for the summer. These 845s make my Rawson amps feel like the cooler summer alternative. Its snowing outside and my damn windows are open 2 feet away from me! |
Gopher,
Can you compare the 845s sound to the sound of the Alephs and F1 or F1J that you have also paired with the Superflys? |
Pardales, how is that Miniwatt working for u, thinking about getting one. Would not be able to run a sub from it though, like I do with the idecco & Totem Forest. I know nothing about tubes but I'm curious. I know, might not need a sub with the Superfly but i think a sub always makes a difference. Bob |
Dave,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience. Well written and very insightful. If ever hot, exposed tubes become an issue in my house I will probably investigate the Quad IIs based on you and Phil's findings.
I have been extremely happy with the way my system is sounding driven by 845 tubes via a pair of Shuguang S845 MK monoblocks. It is hard to make these speakers sound bad, but from my experience this is the ultimate! Sound is sweet and fast while being harmonically developed and very dynamic. It also adds a little something special and romantic to the sound without being annoying and euphonic.
Phil is dead on in recommending 845 SET to drive Zu speakers and my only criticism of the pairing has nothing to do with SQ... Its heat output! These make my Atma-sphere S-30 seem cool running and put off far more heat than the Pass Firstwatts. |
Best bet is to give them a call.
I picked up 2 pairs if 1M b-stock Mission ic's @ $75 each.
A few weeks ago I also purchased a couple pairs of Wylde ic's for $99 ea. I got the Wylde since I run mono blocks and required separated runs (the Mission are single loom except for the cable ends where they break out into pig-tailed terminations).
I would also be in the market for Mission speakers cables bought I had just purchased a preowned pair of Auditorium 23's.
The Zu cables are terrific at these prices.
Regarding my Superfly's (just to qualify this post as per thread title) - have run them with various amps (Red Wine 30.2, Dignity Audio 300b monos, Monarchy SE100 Deluxe MkII) and my favourite is the Quad II Classic Monoblocks which seem to be optimized for the higher Z of the Superflys (16 ohm). Sound is rich, extended, detailed and very sweet. At my listening levels there's plenty of headroom.
I enjoy the Zu sound having previously owned 2 pairs of Druids.I think my previous favorites were the Druid Mk IV with upgraded tweeter and network (Mundorf silver/oil, Mills resistor, B3 cable loom) with original FRD. This variation had a slightly dark overall sound with a detailed yet smooth top end. With my Wyetech labs SET monoblocks the soundfield was very holographic. I did not care for the Druid MK IV-08 quite as much - just didn't seem as rich to me.
The Superfly produces more bass than either of the Druid variations with a more open and airy top end while preserving the richness (especially with the Quads) of my previous favourite Druid (same Mundorf network).
My audio nervosa finds me alternating the Superfly with Harbeth SHL5's (terrific with Dignity Audio 300b's) on a weekly basis. Two totally different presentations and can't choose one over the other so will keep both.
Harbeths are smooth, rich, deeply layered sound stage, very holographic with 300b's, incredible texture on voices (Mark Knopfler, Patricia Barber) with amazing palpability. They sound the way they look (rich Rosewood veneer). Pipe and slippers time? Maybe but absolutely full, balanced, non-fatiquing and gorgeous with my jazz/light pop playlist.
Appropriate partnering beverage - McWilliams Australian Shiraz.
Superfly is fast, more micro-detailed, upfront soundstage (less layered not quite as dimensional). Voices and individual instruments seem to separate and jump out for amazing realism and dynamics. Tonally full but not at the same level as the Harbeths. Appropriate partnering beverage - tequila Ceasar.
Just my thoughts on two great transducers with totally different presentations. Love them both and being a Gemini can't choose one or the other. Of course all comments relate to my specific room and partnering gear.
Regards,
Dave |
How did you order?
I'm trying to get a pair of mission interconnects but I feel like I'm in email limbo and don't want to miss my chance to get a pair as I have a single opening in my system/am curious. |
Ordered phono cable - 1.5m RCA-to-RCA for $99 from original $399.
Not bad. |
Zu has some B-stock stuff listed: http://www.zuaudio.com/store/b-stock/
Pricing seems interesting, especially on their cables at 75% off.
I personally use Wywires throughout my system and very much like how its working with what I have, but the cost isn't practical for everyone and the opportunity to step into Mission cabling for under a hundred bucks may interest a few here.
Might be an opportunity to try the new event line cheaply as well if they have B-stock of those too. |
Running the Soul Superfly off the 8 ohm taps of a Leben C300sx and they sound fantastic. Have owned the Druid and the Essence and the Soul is my favorite Zu by far. My listening room is 12' by 10' and I sit approximately 7 feet from the speakers. I had to experiment with the angle of the front baffle by raising the footers on the front of the speakers tilting the speaker back to improve the speakers coherence. With the the speaker level seemed I was missing some of the information coming thru the fullrange and the speaker sounded dull. The soundstage is huge , bass is tight and deep- vocals are much improved over the Druid and Essence . Zu soul Superfly offers tone/texture/detail in a nonfatigueing package. |
At the sale prices Zu has ben offering these days, the difference between the Soul and the Superfly, is a no-brainer, if that is the Zu speaker you are after. |
I would love to hear other's comments on any of the new Zu' and partnering amps. I was going with Quad amps but have decided on Manley 300B SE/PP monoblocks instead.
Soul Superflys with about 150 hrs on them, hooked to the 16 ohm taps of an Audio Space Ref 3.1 300B. Mission cables all around. I think there's real synergy there. The speakers are about 2.5' from the back and side walls, 7' apart, and slightly toed-in toward the listening chair. I don't really have the technical chops to give you a detailed review. I can say that I've been floored by a number of recordings from various genres; heard things I've never heard before, and yet find it easier than ever to get lost in the music. They make the music big. |
From what I gather, it appears that the Essence (more than the other Zu's) should be paired with a tube amp. I can state from experience that this is some extra "sparkle" when partnered with solid-state gear. That said, with toe-in limited so that the tweeters' axis converge behind the listener lead to a much more balanced sound. The "cuppiness" that some experience or point goes away with Libtec cables and proper toe-in. It is definitely there without proper toe-in. Also, moving to Mission cables from Gede cables helps tame the ribbon.
Can't speak to the Soul or SoulSuperFly. I also suspect that the impedance interaction with a suitably powered SET amp will improve the integration of the ribbon.
I would love to hear other's comments on any of the new Zu' and partnering amps. I was going with Quad amps but have decided on Manley 300B SE/PP monoblocks instead.
PMB |
I'd like to hear how you like them with your iDecco.
Took advantage of the black friday sale myself. Running mine with a Miniwatt N3 and HRT II+ DAC. So far so good, long way to go though as I have not had time to optimize set-up. |
Bjesien:
I think soul is good value at the price, although I do not know if I would pay more for soul superfly.
As for essence, well, i hate ribbons and they cut down sensitivitiy to make it work together, so it depends on whether you like that toneless ribbon sound and hi fi sparkle in HF.
many people like this as you can see from plethora of ribbon fans. |
Wilsynet,
My S-30 is on its way back from Atma-sphere via FEDex now after a servicing to bring it up to spec and a few updates.
I'll get to evaluate it healthy for the first time as I bought all new power tubes for it. I also have a pair of Shuguang Black Treasure CV-181s I'm going to throw in the first position followed by my Ratheons in the second two to see what this amp is REALLY capable of.
I have also been talking with 213cobra quite a bit behind the scenes and under his guidance I picked up a pair of 845 monoblocks which are doing VERY well as they burn in. They are the Shuguang S845 MK amps and I believe these are the fifth revision (early revision was plagued with a couple reliability issues). They came stock with Black Treasure CV-181s and 300Bs and with red label 845Bs and with a list of $2400 they're punching well over their price range. Without full burn in I like them better than the Alephs I've been using which I enjoyed quite a bit and found myself prefering to the S-30.
BUT--I suspect the S-30 was never healthy in the first place, so the real shoot out will be between my atma-sphere and the 845 amp over the winter holiday.
On a side note: I ended up with these two amplifiers after deciding NOT to go with exposed tubes for safety reasons with two cats and a soon to be mobile infant... lol. Well done, Fred. |
Gopher: Have you considered sending in your S-30 to Atma-sphere for service?
Bjesien: Just looked on Zu's site. Latest price for Essence is $3600, which is consistent with their pricing after they got out of the more traditional dealer model. |
I'm thinking of spending $xyz on a second system. I see the Superfly being good at $1500 PP. Is it better than that and what is the price point of the Essence?
People paid $5K for the Essence and it sucked and the latest price for the Essence is $1899 new. At this rate a competitive price for the Soul is like...$600?
Just trying to figure it out. Any information about pricing and long term value is appreciated. |
SE Michigan guy? me too, Macomb county. Got a pair of Superfly's on Black Friday. Not sure when they ship. There going to have to beat down my Totem Forest to stay. Running off a Peachtree Idecco. I'm thinking there going to do just fine. Keep us posted, what are u running them with? |
Just got my pair of Superfly. Let the "getting used to" begin. |
Has anyone by chance tried the Soul with Modwright KWA 100/150 amps? Would that possibly be a good match? |
I would say its sound is more similar to the F1J than the F1. The F1 was leaner a little thing harmonically and perhaps a little cooler in its tonal balance--The F1J on the other hand was a little warmer and richer and seemingly quieter while being 'cleaner'.
The Alephs tonal balance is more along the lines of the F1J to my ears, but with improved dynamics better staging and perhaps better tone--its more engaging. The F1 and F1J both had a little dryness that I'm not experiencing here. |
I have been using a Music Reference RM 10-MKII with the superflys for the past two weeks and am really impressed with the match. It gives you a decent amount of the tubey midrange you would expect, but is still quite resolving throughout the full spectrum. I had previously been running primarily with a Marantz SR7002 and also tried an EL34 (dyanco clone) amp. The Marantz pairing was very bad. The highs were brittle and harsh while the bass was non existent. With the EL34 based amp, things loosened up particularly in the midrange and bass, but there was a noticable lack of detail in the highs. With the RM 10, you get a nice detailed sound, but without any fatigue and just a touch of warmth. The more I listen to this pairing the more I dig it. |
Thanks for the detailed reply. And how would you compare the Alephs to the F1 or F1J you had in your system. I have had an F1 in my system so would be interested in that comparison. Slowly making my way around the First Watt stuff myself. And your comment put Aleph on my radar in a big way. |
Roscoeiii,
I do not have much information on these Aleph monoblock clones at all. I know it puts out roughly 60-70wpc but didn't inquire too much farther. I recently purchased an Atma-sphere S-30mkII which is a bit under the weather at the moment. It appears a resister may have gone and I am not a DIY guy so I've been trying to diagnose it/get help.
In the meantime I have a local friend who recognized my rig has been down for a couple of weeks and offered to loan me these unused monos.
I was liking a lot of what the S-30 did, especially after a tube change, but I'll tell you--in my system I think I actually prefer the Alephs. There is a similar level of transparency to the OTL amplifier with a significantly less analytical sound... 16 tubes in the Atma-sphere and the SS Aleph clones are a touch warmer with better tonal colors. They're offering really good control over the the drivers and are more engaging. I felt the staging of the Atma-sphere was a little flat, but its wider and deeper now.
I have my heart set on tubes at the moment as I'm hoping for that midrange lushness, staging and ultra emotional presentation that I've experienced a few times with tubes, but these things are damn satisfying and I like them better than... probably everything I've used with these Souls so far. FWIW I'm not sure my Atmas were healthy specimens for the comparison... Then again, I wasn't looking for a comparison--just wanted to hear music again and stumbled on a great pairing.
I'm believing more and more that these speakers do indeed come alive more with some extra juice.
I have been speaking with 213cobra quite a bit via email and his enthusiasm for the 845 tube and my faith in his ear from prior conversations and advice led me to purchase a pair of monoblocks to discover for myself. He believes the 845 SET to be the ultimate amplification for driving Zus and I'm excited t find out for myself! |
As an aside, if anyone here was thinking about picking up the Soul/Superfly/ or Omen/Def/Bookshelf, the black friday sale appears to be up and running on their website. |
Gopher,
As you well know, I follow your Pass/FirstWatt experiences closely. Can you say more about the differences the Alephs are making? And which model are they a clone of? Any things that the F1 & F1J had that are missing with the Alephs? |
I'll be hanging mine on the end of Naim kit so that's good news indeed but we're having trouble sourcing Zu stuff in the UK at present and the delay is beginning to hurt. Mind you, have you ever seen a company launch so many new products and a new site all at once. There's certainly an increasing sense if purpose about Zu. |
I can also confirm that the Naim Supernait is great with the Superflys. The combination of the Naim PRAT and the tone/jump of the Souls make an incredible combo. The system makes it difficult to stop listening. I expect that my Nait 1 would also work well, but I haven't tried the combo yet. |
For anyone wanting to avoid tubes and power the Superflys with SS, I'm borrowing a friends Aleph clones while my tube amp is under the weather and its driving these speakers extremely well. Significantly more alive and enjoyable then the Firstwatt F1 or F1J I used previously. |
Thanks for the feedback Wilson. I also spoke to a local dealer who told me it probably would be an issue running straight from the Perfectwave dac since it would be a little too harsh. Anyhow, I guess I gotta go looking for a good pre-amp for the setup now :) Anybody how any more suggestions about good pre-amps for atma-spheres?
-Alex |
Monsieurguzel,
I had the Atma-sphere S-30 for awhile, and I didn't like it direct from source. I was auditioning the W4S DAC-2 with the digital volume control at the time.The highs were a bit clunky, a bit harsh and unrefined. I tried it both balanced and single ended, didn't make a difference.
With the Red Wine Audio Isabella preamp in the mix things got a lot better.
As I understand, the W4S DAC-2 has a very good output stage, likely comparable to the Perfectwave DAC.
As in most things, no doubt your mileage will vary.
Wilson |
Well, since today was a federal holiday and I didn't have to work, I made it up to Ogden to pick up the Superflys. They've been unboxed and hooked up, and right now I'm working on placement. I should have pictures up in a day or two, after I get the room cleaned up.
I took my 6-year-old with me to pick them up and to let him see the Zu factory. He loves tools and enjoyed seeing how the speakers were made. Kristian gave us the tour and pointed out a lot of the new products that are set to be released in the near future. I can't give specifics, but there are some really cool products set to be released. I would definitely suggest that anyone interested in buying speakers before the end of the year keep a close eye on their website. |
After a lot of shopping around and asking for opinions, I've decided to buy myself a set of Atma-Sphere M-60s that I found a great deal on locally. They would generally be way out of my price range, but discounted they seemed like a wonderful bargain for a set of Zu Superfly speakers. Even though they are 60 wpc, I feel that OTL amps will make very nicely with the 16 ohm impedance of the Superflys.
Now I'm just worried that I will probably need to buy a good pre-amp since both Zu speakers and M-60 will both be extremely revealing. I was hoping to use the pre-amp function in my Perfectwave Dac (+bridge), but the digital volume control might not do the system justice. Any opinions? |
All other quality matters being equal, monoblocks are always worthwhile.
The Zu single FRD speakers have tremendous application elasticity for pure music uses. It's efficient and easy-to-drive and get good sound from a plethora of modest amplification options, beginning in the $$hundreds. But it has revelatory and tone density characteristics that can take good advantage of premium amplification many times the cost of Omen, Soul, Superfly, Druid or Essence. My Druids system has amps that are more expensive than what's in my Definition 2 system. Sure, somewhere there's a threshold where further expense in amps doesn't make sense for $2600/pr speakers like Superfly. But that threshold stretching credibility is much further out than most people would think, once you're committed to the holistic presentation of a single-FRD Zu system.
Essence is the problematic model in terms of pushing the amp/cost envelope, due to the mild loss of tonal intensity from the de-tuning of the FRD, and the discontinuity between the FRD and the chosen ribbon tweeter, but if your frame of reference is other speakers, rather than other Zu speakers, even that difficulty recedes. But the outer limit for amp cost to mate with Essence is nearer than it is for Superfly or Druid 4-08.
If you're not up for evolved 845 SET and their associated cost, a completely safe, tone-rich, beautiful choice for Zu speakers with 12-16ohms impedance is Quad II Classic (or rehabbed vintage) monoblocks. The Shuguang Treasure KT66z black bottle tube performs beautifully in them. The Quad II is the most SET-like push-pull tube amp I know, owing to its clever design simplicity and execution. And as hifi goes, cost is fairly modest. There are are others. I recently heard gorgeous sound from a Bob Hovland-modified Glow amp, its el84 5/5w easily trumping a number of megaprice amps, within the Glow's surprising dynamic range, on both Druid 4-08 & Definition 2. But $20,000 SET monoblocks don't sound like overkill either. Tremendous application range in amp options.
Phil
|
It may take a minute to get used to the OTL sound, honestly. I wasn't much of a fan at first but its RAPIDLY growing on me, especially after rolling 6sn7s.
I'm finding these speakers are so revealing of amplification and the amps I've tried are soooo different, that there is always an adjustment period (vintage tubes, to s.o.t.a. ss, to tripath to otl).
I'm very interested in hearing an 845 amplifier with these speakers as 213cobra recommends but I'm having a hard time conceptualizing an increase in enjoyment over the atma. |
In the UK Simon handles Zu stuff but he also handles Atma-sphere. When I heard them at a show I was less than impressed but a show is rarely a true measure of any kit. When I get my Superflys, and we're now moving in the sooner rather than later direction, and assuming I like the finish and get through the sale or return period without trauma, I intend to live with them for quite a long time before changing anything. However, I may well look at the Atma-sphere and see if I can get a demo.
Mike |
I've been doing a lot of listening lately with an Atma-sphere S-30 with NOS 6sn7s and feel it is a very solid matching. It took me some time to get used to such an accurate and transparant sound as I was coming from a Dynaco, but I'm growing fonder of it by the day and can recommend it.
213Cobra heavily recommends pairing the Zu speakers with 845 SET amplification. Though I haven't heard that particular type of SET with the Zus (or ever for that matter) he's has a great ear.
I am not sure what the question means as to whether monoblocks are overkill for the speakers. Mono configuration doesn't have anything to do with the power output of the amplifiers. I've owned 2.5 wpc mono blocks for example.
I think that these speakers are good enough to leverage the merits of any amplification I'm likely to be able to afford in the next decade. |
|
Monsieurguzel,I am using a Rogue Tempest III with the soul superflys and it is amazing. Tight solid bass,very detailed presentation, great sound stage.Vocals, especially female are scary good.Even my wife, who sadly could care less how things sound was impressed.At 90 watts per channel it does not strain to play loud. If there is one drawback it is the lack of a 16 ohm output. It does raise the hum level some but is really inaudible when playing music. |
My wife and I were at the RMAF this year and went to a couple of the Zu rooms (big room where the Omens were sharing space with a couple of other systems and their dedicated room with the Soul Superfly's). We really enjoyed both speakers as we like speakers that have some life and dynamics to them. They proved equally adept at providing fine detail and musicality. In fact, to my surprise, my wife ordered a pair of the Superfly's while at the show (while I was checking out gear in some other rooms) and they will be shipped either this week or next. Now I'm glad I brought her along as I thought she'd find the show boring and tedious. |
Hi everybody, I'm looking into buying a good tube amp for these speakers. Do people have any good tube amp recomendations for a medium room for moderate listening? I'm currently looking at a couple amps, one 35 wpc and the other are 70 wpc monoblocks. Would getting monoblocks for these speakers be overkill, or do they benefit from the extra power going from 35 to 70 wpc?
Thank a lot! |
Being a current Superfly owner and a previous Essence owner, I'll say Superfly no question. I do not regret the move in any way. |
The Ampino's power will decline to 12-15w/ch into the Superfly's 16 ohms impedance, and perhaps to 15-18w/ch into Essence. But Essence is 4db less efficient than Superfly. On balance, aside from Superfly being the better-sounding, more tuneful speaker of the two, it will also make better use of the Ampino's power and intrinsic dynamic aliveness, which you'll no doubt appreciate in a large room. I have no doubt that the Superfly super tweeter will be a much better match to this transistor amp than the hot ribbon on Essence. as I've written before, Essence is the least Zu-like speaker, duet the combination of the ribbon super tweeter's less toneful harmonic output, and the unfortunate dialing back of the Zu FRD's intrinsic dynamic capability to accommodate the less efficient ribbon. You end up with an audible dynamic muting relative to the 101db/w/m speakers, and then a slight tone disconnect between the FRD and the super tweeter. Superfly is a thorough improvement over Essence regardless of amplification, but especially so for Ampino and it's ilk. Superfly will also sound more expansive and explosive in HT use.
Phil |
If one could choose between a used Essence or new Soul Superfly pair what would work best in a large room for 50/50 use of music/HT?
I would power them with a Dayens Ampino. |
Cwlondon,
No, Zu does not use multi-level marketing. I believe there was an attempt a few years ago to pay owners to demo in their own homes to help get the word out in lieu of having real dealers. However, as I understand, that was met with limited success. As far as I know, that hasn't happened in quite awhile.
What have you read that suggests this may be true?
So far you've asked if people here are Zu employees, now you're asking if there might be another explanation.
Is it possible that people just like their Zu speakers? |
That is soooo friggin' cool, man! Congrats!
I'm not sure what room light green wouldn't clash with, but its all good when you listen with the lights low! |
