Your choice - TT, Arm, Stage, Cartridge - $5000 budget

Oops, sorry, it's $1308 plus shipping. I don't know how it would work in VPI arm, it would fine in Nottingham. Medium weight, 0.6mv output. $800 Carmen or $1308 Lyra Delos? Lyra no doubt if your phono can handle it. I would stay away from any AT or Ortofon, they can be bright in some systems.

Oh, and I steer clear of less expensive Grado, not familiar with their Reference level, they are foggy and not balanced enough.
I really like Grado headphones, though, very engaging.

The Lyra Delos seems like a stellar cartridge. Ultimately would be very interested on that based on what I've read about   

However, ain't getting it from analogue seduction. 

 "PLEASE NOTE WE CAN ONLY SEND LYRA CARTRIDGES TO UK and IRELAND addresses"  

Womp womp

Any way around that? yup, move to the UK. 

Sorry, I didn't catch that they can't ship overseas. The way around it is that you have friends or relatives in the UK. Or if you were going to visit the UK soon. You could try, theoretically speaking, some hi-end places in Japan. But..

Anyone knows anything about The Cartridge Man cartridges? Reviews are quite impressive.
Anyway, VPI Prime or Nottingham Spacedeck you'll get an excellent table. The phono stage.. most people who use tube amps use tube phono as well, there are also some who use tube phono with solid state amps. Sutherland or Allnic, as an example? How can one know for sure without comparing in the same system? Or maybe not better or worse, just different. 

I have collected vinyl for 47 years, lots of it used, and VPI unipivot arm is the way to go. Amazing how it tracks any slightly warped lp. A record cleaning machine is a must in your future budget.  Current setup is Scout 1.1 (though I would love the Prime), Soundsmith MIMC Star (my 2nd Soundsmith cart), Chinook phono stage (upgraded tubes, lots of flexibility, big soundstage). Should be an easy get for 5k. Rest of system is PL Prologue Premium Preamp and PL Dialogue Premium power, and ML ESLs, all upgraded tubes. Very content with the analog front end - for now!

P.S. agree with earlier post about younger guys getting great vinyl collections from us older guys one day. Trying to get my CDs and vinyl into Discogs now. What a project!

Cartidge’s are priced differently all over the world on a what the market will bear basis .
Sellers are well aware that Americans tend to judge on a more expensive must be better basis
which is not the case in most places .

http://https//www.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-soundsmith-zephyr-mimc-stereo-phono-cartridge-factory-rebuilt-2762-2017-07-03-analog

No relation to seller. I also have the Soundsmith Aida on the prime. This is a factory rebuilt cart for half the retail price. Remember this is MM/MI so less gain needed and no suspension to collapse. Its essentially new since the manufacture has rebuilt it. It can be rebuilt or re-tipped in the future at a very low price comparability to other carts. 

It also comes with a scale and Soundsmith E-Z mount screws which I use and like (worth like 45 bucks)

No question - VPI Prime, bought new.  Or if you can extend anpther thousand, the VPI Prime Signature

I just settled on the VPI Prime.

seller currently offering to include a new Cadenza Bronze installed and calibrated for $1600. Seems like a decent offer but is slightly more than I expected to spend initially. 

Anyone have any opinions on this Prime with that cartridge? 

moofoo,

All the great & rare vinyl that younger guys missed will be available when we pass.

Wives will sell collections that took 45yrs to build for next to nothing.

1st pressings, UK, Holland, Telefunkens, Toshiba Pro, MFSLs, other Audiophile pressings and just plain great pressings/recordings.

They are here in our collections just waiting for the future. 

The 2nd Coming of vinyl is in storage; Waiting for the next generation.


Vinyl Lives ; Tubes Rule

whacky-IMO, a good score w/cart.

Mission accomplished on the table end. Good luck on whatever you decide phono stage.

Edit: considering we have the same amp along end results, I would look at maxing your budget on the phono. If your final choice is a tubed, I would go in no particular order:Allnic,Herron,Manley,Zesto....etc.Someone else will add another amp.

 Saving a few bucks:Manley Chinook, Fosgate V2.....etc..  Under $1500

Now, this is a quite good cartridge, and if it's A-stock the price is excellent. It is quite heavy, you should talk to VPI people about compatibility with the arm. And as I said, Ortofon can be bright, especially with solid state phono. You could talk to Ron Sutherland too. But it's a little overkill for your table/arm in terms of resolution, anyway.
So, I don't know..

Nice score. If you don't like the cartridge you can sell it to hep finance your next one. Great deal!

I own a VPI Prime, I also own a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze. Though the Bronze cartridge has very good reviews, it was not the best of combination with the VPI Prime, IMHO.
Not for technical reasons, VPI recommends cartridges with compliance > 10, and weight > 7 grams, the Bronze checks both of those boxes.

No, the reason I didn't think they were the best mates is the Bronze is a pretty warm sounding cartridge, and VPI tables are a bit on the warm side.
I found the combination too warm for my tastes.
That is why many who own VPI tables like Lyra and Dynavector cartridges, as they are more dynamic and revealing.
A Cadenza Black may be more suitable for the Prime.

Also, I'm not sure buying it to try it is a good idea either. You will be lucky to get $1200 on the used market for a Bronze. Which means you would still be out at least $400 if paying $1600.
The Bronze would make a good mate with another table, perhaps a Basis, which are more transparent than VPI tables.

That's just my $0.02.

Yeah, buying to try a new expensive cartridge is not a good idea at all. I still think you might want to focus more on the phono stage. I would almost certainly get new Allnic phono for about $2600 instead of, say, $2000 used. I am not sure the warranty is transferrable, and Allnic guarantees even tubes for one year. You have a tube amp, like the sound, and I would see no good reason to break the tube sound chain, especially in the beginning of it. I myself would probably replace the Acoustech with the Allnic if I could if someone convinced me that I would not lose any dynamics and pace and bass. This I would not tolerate. But each is different. Cartridge and speakers choice is known to be the most personal.

@jmcgrogan2 So you weren't the biggest fan of the Cadenza bronze? Have you tried any other carts on your Prime?

$1600 was just a touch more than I intended on spending on the cart. But the cart lists at $2300. So I can definitely push the boundaries of the budget a little, but only for something that is a definite slam dunk at that price, or a fantastic deal in general. 

I think I might prefer a dynamic and revealing cart. That being said, you are right, the reviews on the Bronze are pretty solid in general. But there are a ton of cart options up to $1600, especially if you factor in the used market. 

That being said,I still dont know how I feel about buying carts on the used market. Seems like a great way to save some cash if the situation is reasonable. Dealers, low use, well maintained, etc. 

There is a dealer demo Cadenza Blue @ audio asylum trader for $1133. The Cadenza Blue is supposed to be very detailed and dynamic. I almost bought it but ended up with a Black instead. Check it out....

whacky,

I have a audio-technica AT-0C9. Used it for 3-4 hrs. It would get you some decent sound until you decide how you want to go and always have as a backup.

Its been sitting in a drawer for 10yrs +/- ; I would let it go for $80 includes shipping.

Would get you music and you can use it to learn "setup " without stress.

So you weren't the biggest fan of the Cadenza bronze? Have you tried any other carts on your Prime?

I'm currently using a Transfiguration Phoenix S which I am pretty happy with, but out of your range at this time.

That being said,I still don't know how I feel about buying carts on the used market.

I've never recommended buying a used cartridge. You would have to know and trust the seller very much to do this.
I'm fine with used turntables, phono stages, etc., but if you read my first post, I recommended buying the cartridge new.

My first post on this thread:

Alright, I'll play....for $5K

***VPI Prime table with 3D arm - used - $2500
(I've seen one sitting on USAM for over a month at $2800, so I figure you can get it shipped to you for $2500.)

*** Art Audio Vinyl Reference phono preamp - used $1600
(listed on USAM for $1895, probably can be yours for $1600)

*** Audio-Technica AT-ART9 phono cartridge - NEW from LP Gear $999.
I don't recommend buying used cartridges.


Yeah, I went over by $100, but maybe you can get another $100 off the VPI or AAVR.

Sit back and enjoy the tunes......

Cheers,
John

"That being said,I still dont know how I feel about buying carts on the used market. Seems like a great way to save some cash if the situation is reasonable. Dealers, low use, well maintained, etc."

whacky-
In most cases, I've read positive outcome regarding used carts. Whatever phono stage you end up using, the Cadenza seems to be popular regardless of paper specs indicating otherwise.

Being out of major acquisition mode, it appears there are great deals out there. More quality choices  than when I did the  jump to "proper"  gear.

Yes it is somewhat dicey buying used. My suggestions are. 

1. Buy from someone with many sales and excellent feedback. 
2. I would not buy an MC over $700 used. Its just too big of a risk. You have to figure out what your risk level amount 
3. If the say it has 600 hours or more pass
3. I think soundsmith would work well with your system I know it will work well with the prime/arm combo. 

I bought a SS Aida for under half of retail. I can get it re-tippped for $350.00. Its a $1900 cart retail. Even if it needs to be rebuilt after say a year you still got an amazing deal. They don't really go bad...... I guess unless you take it apart or smash it.

who knows if you would like the sound. Its very dynamic, smooth and musical. Not as detailed as some MC carts like the Lyra but it has a more full sound  The SS highs might not pop as much as MC but its a very balanced sound. 

Dynavector's work very well with VPI. I like their house sound. I find Soundsmith more neutral, Slightly more detail and a fuller sound. Dyanvector is a musical cart but I find Sound smith more musical 

The Lyra that I heard was very detailed. Leaner than Dyanvector and way more so than SS. More detail and resolution with a more analytical type sound IMO. 

Used does increase your performance ratio per dollar but comes with risk. SS Carts take some of that away. But carts are very personnel. Someone could come along and totally disagree with my thoughts on these carts and they would not be wrong. Just their ears vs mine. 

Ok, my bad.....I thought he was including the cartridge for a total of 1600, not adding 1600 to the cost. I think this cartridge is just over 2000 new. I would not lay that down unless I heard it personally, which I haven't. 

I'm running an zyx r100h on a tweaked out hw19 mkiii and it is killing me on how good it sounds.

I'm not sure how a Denon 103 sounds on a VPI arm but you might try a hot rod 103 out during the time you are looking for a higher end cartridge. You never know, you may find that the Denon delivers what you are looking for. Don't let the low price fool you. Magic happened when Denon made this cartridge and none of their others meet the same level of sonic satisfaction imo. Although, I've never heard the S1.

Go new with the whole thing set up including MC cartridge. If you have not set up a table before, you will have to buy additional gear for that. This way you got a plug and play guarantee.


                https://hifibuys.com/store/rega-rp8-turntable/dp/6701

This leaves a few dollars, but not enough for phono pre; you will have to add a few for that, but this is no hassle.
                 

Yeah I think I am probably going to pass on the Bronze for the time being.

The dealer also also offers other Ortofon, SoundSmith, and Grado carts and already assured me that he will offer me a solid discount on a new cart considering I’m buying a table from him.

Gonna see what the best cart he will offer me for ~1000. Maybe start from there.


Also, been looking into the Art Audio Vinyl Reference stage considering there is one on USAM now. Fits the price range. Been recommended earlier.

Anyone got first hand experience with this model?? Almost settled for a Whest 30rdt based on the price. But didn’t happen.

Otherwise I’m on the prowl for a good deal for an excellent stage. What price have people been seeing the Herron stage go for used?

Also, just got offered a Tom Evans The Groove stage for $1500. Havent heard much about this stage at all. Trying to do a little research on it presently.

Anyone have any insight into this?

OK scratch that. I settled on a stage.

Went with a used Whest PS.30rdt SE 2017 spec, which supposedly is has updated and improved components over the older SE models. (according to whest website)

I hadn't really seen a bad review on the unit. In fact, quite the opposite. Its a touch more expensive than the $1500 units I was looking at. But I am hoping it will be the last phono stage I need for a long while. 


So the last piece of the puzzle is the cartridge. My TT dealer is still pushing the Ortofons. Cadenza line as follows. Red $970, Blue $1400, and Bronze $1600. 

I hadn't asked about any Soundsmith carts and what prices he would offer me, but I am guessing it would be similar to the same kind of discount if I pushed the issue. 

If I'm not going to use the dealers discount, then so be it. Can definitely expand the search to any cart within the $1000 area. 

Still not sure what direction to go on this one. Any input would be appreciated. 

I have a Cadenza Red, Cadenza Black, and a 2M Black. All for use on a Classic Signature.  Any of these I recommend. 

This is the quote from Whest Audio website. The first introductory phrase. "  Welcome to the Whest Audio website. Here is the place of the very best phono stages in the world."
I'll refrain from expessing my opinion of this in a more open fashion than I just did.
Why did you decide to go with solid state phono, anyway? You are going to thin out the sound and lose some details.

A Groove phono stage for $1500??? That’s pretty impressive. I have the 3rd generation Microgroove Plus and it’s quite good. I previously had a Convergent SL-Reference Mk III and think the Groove quite close to it, although the Convergent line stages do the tiniest dynamic inflections a bit finer than the Evans (Groove) line stage.

As for the VPI tables sounding "warm"? Not my experience. I had a HW-19 back in the 90s, along with a Versa Dynamics 2.3, and THAT turntable (the VPI, NOT the Versa) was warm. The Classic I bought 3 years ago was ANYthing but "warm." I eventually sold it for that very reason. It is extremely ’neutral,’ but not dark like earlier VPIs. Meaning, in the lower part of the spectrum, it doesn’t have the ’weight’ I’m used to with older VPIs. Perhaps it was the Clearaudio Stradivarius I had on it. That was NOT a combination I liked. I understand VPI likes Dynavectors (Harry Weisfeld himself - when I told him I had the Classic - enthusiastically agreed the two (VPI/Dynavector) sound great together). The Dynavector is warm in the mid bass through lower midrange - the very regions where the Classic sounds "lean." Male voices, particularly Black male voices, have that full throatiness to them. Which means the lower midrange is pretty spot on. Even Sinatra’s tone is quite nice with the Dynavector. That’s why the two are synergistic: the Dynavector adds the missing "body." I only WISH the Classic WAS warm, because I’d have kept it. I’m not one for ’skeletal’-sounding turntables, having lived with a Sota Star Sapphire, then a Goldmund Studio/T3F, then the Versa Dynamics 2.3 (still in California), then the Nottingham Horizon and a Teres and a Rega Planar 3 and then the Classic. I think I can tell warm from skeletal, and I wouldn’t call the VPI Classic ’warm,’ as I already said.
In any case, the Groove is a steal for that price.
But how do you like the phono stage you bought? Is IT ’warm’? And what cartridge did you end up with?

I’ll go against the grain here and suggest you look for a solid state phono stage.

You already have plenty of tubes in your chain, and $1,000 - $1,200 will go a LOT farther on a used S/S phono stage than a tubed one. It is much more expensive to make a quiet tubed phono stage than a s/s one.

There a lots of contenders to choose from: Rega Aria, Blue Circle, Whest, Ayre, Lehmann, Graham Slee, etc. Just look for the best deal you can find.

Edit: Oops! I just noticed you bought a Whest phono stage. Good call! ;^)

In terms of carts, have you considered a moving iron, like the London Decca Super Gold? They are super detailed and behave like an MM.

"So the last piece of the puzzle is the cartridge."

whacky-you're  almost there. Hope that phono stage works well with whatever cart you decide on.

Cart selection is a drag. After using  a few popular MC carts, I've found a keeper that many here like-Audio Technica ART9. Under $1k and used by a few Prime owners.

If your new stage has 65-70dbs gain, a possibly more refined cart is the ART7 for even less $7-800, but only online. It has less output so you need a little more juice than what the ART 9 requires.55-60 DB's 

@tablejockey What do you like about the ART9? And what other carts did you try first?

The Whest phono stage can accommodate up to 72dbs gain I believe. So we should be good there. 

whacky-

I’ve used the following:
Sumiko Blackbird-overall nice sonics,but sometimes a little too much detail on the upper end.
Benz Micro Glider-too warm for my tastes,soft overall presentation discontinued now?
Audio Technica OC9III-great budget($500ish)MC, but shrill at the upper end, which was wearing.

These see traits may not be heard in other users systems/ears.

Check this thread out on the ART 9-
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/pani-new-art-9-up-and-running

The ART9 on my VPI Classic, thru my tubed phono, presents itself as a "goldilocks" cart. Not warm, not bright, just....
I would love to try several carts, but they are all $2K+!!
For the level of gear I have, the ART9 makes my system sing.

I wasn’t familiar with the Whest, after taking a peek at the website, looks like fine SS gear. I noticed they list the ART9 and AT50 as some of their test carts for their phono stages. That’s promising.

Your model has been superseded with the 40, but the specs are generally the same, so you have enough gain to consider an even lower output MC like the ART 7, which go for a couple hundred less.

Good luck weeding out the contenders

You can get a Technics SL-1200G for $3995.00
You can get a Cart and Phono stage for about $1500.00 A bit more but amazing.

I also have Luxman PD-171 with a tonearm and Koetsu cart. Store Demo at $5500.00
I also have VPi Prime with a fantastic Audio Research Phono Preamp and cart package for reasonable money.
626-966-6259.
www.sunnyaudiovideo.com

In terms of going second hand you have a wonderful selection available. 
For a 'big stage' a good phono stage is essential. I had an EAR 834P which has that big stage you are looking for. I own the original Whest phono stage on which I did a review over 10 years ago.
As to turntable... I think one of the widest soundstage you will get is the Michelle Orbe (famous for its wide soundstage) which is a great piece of kit and very arm friendly - a modified rega is often a very good buy. 
don't discount the idea of a good MM cartridge - they give a very bold full bodied sound and place less demands on a phono stage - raulrigas did a very long thread on this topic. I have an old Pickering that I got with a second hand Townshend Elite and was astonished with its' performance - very full bodied. Consider the Denon dl103 as well.

First and foremost, if you are new to vinyl, you need a pro to come to your home and set up your table for you. It should cost between $100-$200 and will be the best investment you can spend as far as turntables go. Having a pro set it up at the pro's shop is second best assuming you don't mess it up when you remount the arm onto the unipivot spike of your Prime, lose the counterweight setting, etc. I own the Prime and have had various Benz and SoundSmith cartridges mounted. I recently had my dealer install the dual pivot ($150) and an Ortofon Quintet Black and it has never sounded better. I have the 3D soundstage now that you have mentioned you are looking for. The Benz's are second best and the SS's a distant third in that category. SS's excel at lively dynamic punchy sound throughout the audio spectrum. The Benz's excel at detail and clarity. The Quintet Black with a well recorded record is the most organic, real-sounding of those that I have tried. Eventually you will want a top phono stage but it can wait. A used Simaudio 310LP or SimAudio LP5.3 or even a new iFi iPhono2 will give you years of enjoyment until you find the dream phono stage you can afford. I went this route (SimAudio Moon LP5.3) and eventually bought a Manley Steelhead that had about 5 hours on it for a very nice price. I've had a ton of phono cables in and out of my system. I had a slight hum problem. I just took a flyer on the Morrow Ph4's with Eichmann plugs because they are well-shielded and despite their veery reasonable price, my hum went down by 80% to a very low level and the SQ is incredible. Whichever phono cables you choose, make sure they are shielded between the Prime and your phono stage and between your phono stage and preamp. 

Trans-Fi Audio tonearm T3Pro, I have two of them.
Audio-Technica AT-ART7 or ART9 cartridge
Moon Sim Audio, used (see post avove)

My London Decca Super Gold does things that I've not heard any other cartridge do. With the optional DeccaPod, it is $1600 new in the US. I would build my analog front end around that particular cartridge; it is that amazing. 

I'm also highly partial to my Fosgate Signature phono stage. They are no longer made, however. If you can find a used one, grab it.

Based on my experience with my Marantz TT-15, I believe that a Clearaudio Concept (same tonearm, w/o cartridge $1400) will suit the Decca just fine.

Although many folks in this situation would spend $4k of the $5K on a turntable, and skimp on the cartridge and preamp, I believe my allocation would result in much better sound.

And, should you wish to spend a little more, I bet that a trip to England to purchase a Michell turntable and a London Decca cartridge could be paid for with the savings on just those two items!

If you haven't decided on a cartridge, consider the Decca.