Eminence Kappa 12A. The really nice thing is it is one of the cheaper woofers also but at 12" I doubt you can use it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here is how I addressed the bass response issue.
Instead of making a Single FR W8 + a massive 10 or 12 inch woofer + tweeter. I went this route
Dual FR, W8+W6, + tweeter. My Defy might take a woofer’s ohms, but why? For classical muisc, there is not much below 60hz, and blues, jazz, not much below 40 hz. Dual FR is nota heavy load on a SET amp, so I get double bass in the 50hz-100hz, band width, which makes up for the bass a 10 or 12 inch woofer would supply in that region. = a woofer has no use for my system. I’ve completely dumped the traditional woofer thingy. Now if you are into HT and heavy metal, yeah you need a woofer.
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They may be big structures,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Whenever I see a mnolithic horn cabinet,, I just have to chuckle Not only wife unfriendly, but just plain ugly, NEVER Even if it was the worlds best sounding speaker.
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Klipsch
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My tech has heard Klipsch, He has issues with the Klipsche house sound.
No thanks |
Oris 150 horns with AER BD3 drivers)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just curious what is a **Oris 150 horn??** For bass? hz band width? You have the AER 3, very nice speaker,,,although have not heard it next to my DavidLouis VX8. can’t say if I would like it better, same or less so. and I don’t have $8k anyway... so what I did to make up for lack of a bass driver,, if add a 2nd FR, now i have really good bass 60hz-100hz, then over lap all the way through 12khz or whereever the 2 FR roll off at.. I have no idea. VX8 hits 40hz, VX6 60hz
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Feeling like you are at a live concert requires low bass.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
99% of all music ever recorded is midrange.
Not sure why are hooked on deep bass.
Deep bass = 40 hz.
The 20hz-30hz is a hoax, a myth, and a fantasy. |
My subwoofers were designed for music not Star Wars
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Ridiculous
Subs for blues, jazz, classical??
Lets get real here folks, None of these 3 genres require a sub. Subs are ONLY meant for movies and who knows what other uses. Grunge, metal rock, OK,.
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@mijostyn --
"... sorry lad, it would appear your experience is lacking. I have heard and built Horn subwoofers. Mahlmans’s sense of vibration is not good. I hope he is not diabetic. The other answer would be that his horns do not go very low which is in keeping with his other posts. Yes, horns are very efficient but, bass is bass and it is very powerful and hard to contain. Any subwoofer, horn or otherwise putting out 20 Hz at 85 dB is going to shake and it is going to shake the entire house. Making one that does not vibrate with just the distortion produced by the driver is virtually impossible. There are examples that come close, Magico’s Q subs come to mind. I might be able to do better. We shall see. I have been designing and building subwoofers for almost 40 years."
Forest for the trees, as they say. Not to impugn your decades of experience, I hope they’ve done you some good, but it seems to me you’re chasing an aspect in subwoofer design that’s really the lesser evil compared to, in my mind, more primary goals. You’re a line source guy on the main speaker front, one terminated at both the floor and ceiling no less, so why haven’t you gone to length ensuring two bass columns, loosening a wee bit on the vibration control, placed in each corner behind the mains to meet the challenges faced here with both headroom and acoustic coupling? No, because you’re hellbent on killing vibrations as that which has precedence, thus limiting yourself to a smaller sub design. It’s all a matter of degree and measuring its importance relative to other aspects, and to you vibration/resonance control comes first with all that entails - fair enough. I’d have gone differently, as you imagine, letting physics more readily have their say - vibrations to some degree be damned.
@mahlman’s horn subs (yes, in my understanding of the correct use of the word ’sub’ they qualify, being they’re able to reach honest 30Hz without any issues) as a classic single-fold front loaded horn, very high efficiency at that, will most likely deliver some of the most effortless, smooth and nuanced bass out there. I’m sure there’re some cabinet vibrations at elevated levels, but do they really matter in the bigger scheme of things, not least outweighed by the qualities of a horn sub design that has the woofer cone moving close to zilch at anything but earsplitting levels sans mechanical driver noise, where a direct radiating sub design like yours, almost 20dB’s less sensitive, will necessitate up to 100x the amount of power and prodigious excursion for the same SPL?
Shelling out $40k for a single(!) sealed, 15" loaded Magico sub is just dumb, sorry. That’s $80k for a pair of them, and it’s not like they cured polio or other.
"As for horns being the best type of driver, they have their advantages. I am waiting to hear a horn system that is not colored. They also require crossovers. IMHO the best type of system is a one way driver crossed to a subwoofer below 125 Hz where digital bass management is easy to apply. The only one way driver that is truly one way is an ESL. With horns you are also stuck with a point source system. It does not matter how big they get. Line sources project power better particularly in the bass and are more capable of generating the visceral sensations of a live concert."
I have no issues with ESL’s, really, other than they need to be big to really be worthwhile (and usually lack macro dynamics), certainly compared to big horn setups. And yes, an advantage of theirs is not needing a cross-over in most of the audio band, except crossing over to a pair of subs and the challenges this presents. Point source(s) as a design characteristics is not necessarily a flawed approach. A single point per channel is desirable and to my ears is most favorably realized through the Tom Danley invented Synergy horns, but they also need to be fairly big to do their best and maintain directivity control down low to the subs. The dispersion characteristics of my horn hybrid main speakers is quite uniform through their audio band, not least at their single cross-over point, and this is achieved via the big midrange/tweeter horn and how it couples to the twin vertically mounted 15" woofers. In that regard they’re sonically not wholly unlike big panel speakers.
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How in the world is it that audio seems to draw those who know everything and also know the singular best way? I listen to what others say and incorporate good things I find into what I build and do. My list of those I listen to though grows fairly small over time and the ones I take seriously were vetted through the results they delivered in either their advice to me or their personal work I CAN VERIFY by putting my hands on it.
I see @mijostyn that you have many opinions and I disagree with many of them as my real world experience sitting in my shop right now says you like to throw stuff out there and sound authoritative, but you are not. You have passed today into the read for amusement but not for info category.
You seem quite stuck on subs but remember my big horn set is roughly -5db at 27hz and drops off quick after that and is not a sub but part of a two way system for 27hz to 18.5khz sound.
Do you honestly think I will take you seriously when the evidence, the physical evidence that is, is in my shop and you say it can't be done. It's a shame you have never had a chance to hear good horns in that 40 years of experience you tout.
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@phusis, sorry lad, it would appear your experience is lacking. I have heard and built Horn subwoofers. Mahlmans's sense of vibration is not good. I hope he is not diabetic. The other answer would be that his horns do not go very low which is in keeping with his other posts. Yes, horns are very efficient but, bass is bass and it is very powerful and hard to contain. Any subwoofer, horn or otherwise putting out 20 Hz at 85 dB is going to shake and it is going to shake the entire house. Making one that does not vibrate with just the distortion produced by the driver is virtually impossible. There are examples that come close, Magico's Q subs come to mind. I might be able to do better. We shall see. I have been designing and building subwoofers for almost 40 years.
As for horns being the best type of driver, they have their advantages. I am waiting to hear a horn system that is not colored. They also require crossovers. IMHO the best type of system is a one way driver crossed to a subwoofer below 125 Hz where digital bass management is easy to apply. The only one way driver that is truly one way is an ESL. With horns you are also stuck with a point source system. It does not matter how big they get. Line sources project power better particularly in the bass and are more capable of generating the visceral sensations of a live concert.
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@phusis "produce a smooth, effortless and enveloping bass, quite different even from direct radiating designs."
You bet they do. Hard to convey the impact they make to people who have not heard good horns. One of my favorite sound effects to play as a demo for people is Japanese Fireworks. Just like real life and the sound is so precise and quick and if you want to turn it up there is even a concussive wave that will hit you. And drums and stringed instruments with none of the lag time moving massive cones with large excursion create. Closest to real life as I have ever heard.
@sns I suppose it is possible. I have people who stop in on occasion to hear the big horns that tell me the same thing. I encourage them to bring that gear they think so highly of with them next time and lets see. No one has brought gear with them but they have come back to listen again. Right now I am not dumping a bunch of cash on things that might work better when peer review plus my ears and curves tell me what I have does work.
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@mahlman This isn't you vs I thing. Whether laptop or tower, there are better servers than general service computer. You don't have to take my word for it, again, do the research. Better yet, try a server engineered for audio only, nothing beats the experience of trial and error.
The experienced diy understands there are many things still to learn and experience. The curious desire experience, not afraid to admit they may not know everything. I listen and learn from those with experience beyond my own. I'm not trying to teach you anything, just telling you what I learned and experienced first hand, all credit goes to experts further along learning curve. All my diy work based on this philosophy.
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@mijostyn --
"... put on anything with a little low bass in it and turn it up to your usual listening level. Put your hand on the bass horn say just inside the mouth. Feel that vibration? Any vibration you feel is audible distortion. Getting any large structure not to vibrate at bass frequencies is extraordinarily difficult. This is the problem with bass horns. They add way too much coloration."
This is grossly incorrect and an assertion that clearly doesn’t rest in experience - period. My counter reply here would apply even at SPL’s where most typical commercial subs would’ve left the building, but you’re talking "usual listening levels"? Come on. I’ve you have ever listened to a pair horn subs in a home environment, which VERY few people ever have, you would know that they - properly implemented (and this goes for any sub principle) - produce a smooth, effortless and enveloping bass, quite different even from direct radiating designs. They may be big structures, but made of high quality plywood or even MDF they're sufficiently sturdy as the internal horn path acts as effective bracing, which is furthermore reinforced with additional bracing to support the horn path itself. Moreover the horn acts as a low-pass filter and thus filters out harmonics and driver induced noise that would otherwise be readily exposed from direct radiators which are working much harder being much less sensitive. Horn subs produce "way too much coloration"? No, sir, it’s the other way ’round.
"You would literally have to make the horn out of concrete. Getting a small enclosure not to resonate is difficult enough but a horn is virtually impossible. There are very few horns that make it below 30 Hz. The K horn is already down 4 dB at 33 Hz. A horn that makes it down to 18 Hz would be huge and even more difficult to control. The driver is happy as a clam, the horn itself is an audiophile nightmare which is why you do not see or hear many of them."
The predominant reason you don’t see horn subs in home environments is because so very few are available and that they’re very big. Oh, and the few that are are typically very expensive. Please name me a couple of commercially available, non-DIY horn subs that not only you but audiophiles at large are actually aware of. Horn subs aren’t disregarded by audiophiles for some speculated flaws of theirs, but because by and large they’re simply not part of the audiophile narrative.
Great bass requires big size, and proper implementation here is automatically assumed. 20Hz honest reproduction from a horn sub necessitates roughly 20 cubic feet of enclosure volume. Sure, that’s a lot, but it is manageable if you set your mind to it. As Arnold (and Nike) would’ve said: Just do it!! ;)
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@mijostyn No actually I feel no vibration as it is made out of 25MM Baltic Birch. I am aware of cabinet resonance problems. If you are ever near southern middle Tennessee I invite you to stop in and hear for yourself. Until you have your comments are just assertions of what you think my horns have to be doing. I will grant you the large size of horn to sound good and go down below 30hz is not something dainty and petite. Yes very few are out there for size considerations as most are not willing to go large. Does not mean a horn can't sound really good. I believe an all horn system done right is unbeatable.
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@sns Oh I do have an open mind I just assumed with all your PC warnings you had troubles to solve. You mention a list of things you did to make your MacMini right so I figured you felt there was a need too.
I agree on the laptops can be a problem and the Dell precision laptop I have does not sound as good as the Dell Precision workstation I use as a music server does. I am not sure where you get the idea I am using a laptop from.
If you are talking about internet or wifi music streaming I don't do that. I have not been impressed with streaming I have heard being any better at best than what I do on my own.
Yes I do believe many "audiophiles" do waste money and have all sorts of gear to fix their problems that resulted from the choices they made. I think there is a common mindset that exists that determines x number of boxes or pieces of gear and special wires are needed to have fidelity because peer opinion research says so. I thought that with two way speakers for years and believed three ways were the only way to go until I got a set of serious Klipsch Pro two ways.
"I always thought diy most open minded and experiential learners, sounds like you've made up your mind."
Indeed I have until someone shows me something better. I have a question for you. Why are you so sure what I have done is not as good or better than what you have done? How can you be so certain you have the best answers and that mine are not when we have never heard each others systems to be able to judge that? Fairly bold final answer assertions on your part.
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I don't know why you infer I'm having issues, on the contrary. I know from experience that general use computer not good for server, I used laptop prior to present solution.
I'll just touch on a couple issues with laptop, all those needless processes, noise, switching power supply, noise.
I think you need to do some research on what specialized servers actually do in improving sq. Do you seriously believe the many audiophiles purchasing and/or diy specialized audio system servers are all delusional? Or could it be they actually heard real improvements. Go over to audiophilestyle, many computer/streaming experts over there.
I have nephew, new to streaming, just like you he insisted his laptop sufficient for audiophile usage. I mentioned to him same issues, he's done his research, now prepared to upgrade server. He's realized perhaps he was wrong, willing to open up to new experience.
I always thought diy most open minded and experiential learners, sounds like you've made up your mind.
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@jasonbourne52 , Bob Carver does things just because he can. The cube has to take such long excursions its distortion increases dramatically at volume and sometimes you can even hear the driver moving. His best item in it's day was the Phase Linear 700, the first decent sounding high power transistor amp.
@mahlman , put on anything with a little low bass in it and turn it up to your usual listening level. Put your hand on the bass horn say just inside the mouth. Feel that vibration? Any vibration you feel is audible distortion. Getting any large structure not to vibrate at bass frequencies is extraordinarily difficult. This is the problem with bass horns. They add way too much coloration. You would literally have to make the horn out of concrete. Getting a small enclosure not to resonate is difficult enough but a horn is virtually impossible. There are very few horns that make it below 30 Hz. The K horn is already down 4 dB at 33 Hz. A horn that makes it down to 18 Hz would be huge and even more difficult to control. The driver is happy as a clam, the horn itself is an audiophile nightmare which is why you do not see or hear many of them.
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@sns OK I will bite. So how do you know this has existed on your setup and what did you do to stop it. I would also point out that just because you have had problems in this area does not mean I have thus experiences may differ.
I guess part of my verification process involves people bringing their favorite music with them when they visit and telling me what they hear. Of course one could say that there is too much time between when they listen at home and when they listen here for the comparison to be valid. Over time though and with differing ears I reach a conclusion about my work and none complain about fidelity.
At some point in time even if others have found a way to tweak output to be better in their eyes that does not mean the next person will like it. I am really close to not looking for further improvements as I am quite happy with what I have and any fiddling is for academic purposes without much hope for real improvements. You come up with good suggestions and specifics that would apply to my system, and not be MacMini specific, I just might try them. My suspicions right now are that your tiny little PC has issues with interference mine won't have due to extreme overcrowding of components.
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Noise you can hear is not the problem, its internally generated noise raising noise floor, supressing signal/info/resolving power. Noise floors that aren't heard at idle do exist, you'll never understand until you experience.
Surprised a diy doesn't understand or experienced this.
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@sns I agree with noise and funny things can cause them. Going to all SSD hard drives eliminated some and my corded mouse was guilty of more when moved while the stereo system was on. Beyond that there was and is no hum or noise audible when everything is turned up and the room is dead quiet with no music on. If I can't hear anything under those conditions I don't worry about things and leave them alone. As small as that Macmini is I can see you having interference where the much bigger PC box my Dell Precision resides in has components far more spaced out.
@jasonbourne52 I know deep bass can be had that way but I still believe that a single fold horn with a cloth pleated woofer that hardly has excursion visible at fairly loud levels generates the cleanest sound. It would have been far easier to go the way you went as there are many DIY plans out there for these little box subs. At the end of the day precise sound was the main consideration for my build after getting to the wanted bass notes. There is a superior presence to lower notes that the club thump large excursion boxes just can't do, in my opinion. I know some of my friends really like the club thump though and build or buy just for that. Your small sub in my world would do Star Wars good but not pipe organ music.
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I had that little carver subwoofer and it pressurized the room good, but didn't sound very good. My friend has the carver amazings, they aren't built very good and his apogee's blow them away in sound quality.
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Bob Carver's The Cube sub was indeed 12" x12" x12" and went down to 2Ohz loud! Long excursion butyl surround and a 2000watt class D amp (the size of a chocolate bar) inside. Now that's innovative thinking! Ditto for his Amazing Speaker from 1990 - four high-Q 12" woofers mounted vertically on one side of a six-foot trapezoidal open baffle crossed over passively at 100hz to a 60" ribbon mid/tweeter! 20hz to 20khz for $3000. Why bother with big horn-loaded boxes and complex active crossovers with multiple amps?
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I'm using highly modded Macmini. Uptone MMK dc internal power supply, Uptone JS 2 lps, Stripped of virtually every service, including those only accessed via DOS command. No wifi, wifi antenna removed, upgraded RAM and SSD, shielding for RFI.
Lots of internal noise generated within computers, noise is enemy of resolution.
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@kingharold That is an interesting looking system. Wish you had better pictures though.
@sns I know that is the general consensus but way to many people have come through here, many with great systems, with praise for the setup for me to doubt the quality this particular PC produces. I am not clever enough to tell you why this one works so well I can only say it does. Remember that the hi def driver from the audio card maker Reaktek is what made it outstanding and not the box as it came from Dell.
So what exactly are you using and why?
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@mahlman Lots of good effort there, but I don't understand the off the shelf computer. General service computer not quality server. If truly diy, why don't you build diy server, sure you could do much better than present. Really need lps with any server as well.
Most of my streaming chain is made up of off the shelf diy modified equipment, including server. I can tell you first hand that computer isn't coming close to extracting full potential of your system.
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Back in 1999 I got the idea to build a DIY fully horn loaded system with folded corner horns back in the corners and wide range horns (Oris 150 horns with AER BD3 drivers) and Fostex t900a bullet tweeters out in the room where they would provide a better image. DSP would correct for the great difference of distance to the various drivers. It was 2004 before I found a DSP that would accomplish everything I wanted. That was a DEQX HDP4 Preamp/DSP. After I got everything together and playing I was less than thrilled with the results. Since then I have changed woofers, bass horns, wide range drivers, all three power amplifiers and reprogrammed the DEQX a dozen or more times including one final reprogramming using the services of a factory trained DEQXpert. The final results exceeds all my expectations. My audiophile friends and I agree that they sound great. In addition to beautiful music I am also rewarded with the tremendous satisfaction of having conceived of my ideal speakers and then building them. A photo of my horns may be found in my profile.
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Assiduous application of solipsism. Your reality not mine.
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@mahlman , no I am not debating myself. Being the SOB that I am I am simply stating reality for what it is. If you want to cut yourself short for whatever reason that is your business but trying to convince people that you can have decent bass with woofers that do not move is another thing all together. Then you back that up by saying you do not like it (bass). If it does indeed hurt your ears that is awful and I do sympathize with you.
My subwoofers were designed for music not Star Wars although they do the Star Wars thing just fine. That was not the intension.
Feeling like you are at a live concert requires low bass. There is no way around this. Without it you have a run of the mill Hi Fi. Might be a great run of the mill Hi Fi but, it will not be convincing in the least. Having said this rather harshly I have to admit that realistic sound is not everybody's goal for one reason or another but, nobody has ever told me this is not the ultimate target for the serious hobbyist and my point of reference when evaluating systems. What other reference can you have?
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@mijostyn You are kind of debating yourself here. I have slight academic interest in subs that go that low and figure 27hz is enough for me. And I don't care how big the box is because I treasure precise low distortion sound over large excursion thump. We have different goals here and your 8 sub system sounds OK for Star Wars but I would not want to listen to my two channel music on it. neither of our positions are incorrect they address different goals.
I am sitting here thinking of your needs a lot of power statement. I don't happen to have that need and 100 watts is enough to run one out of the room with my current setup.
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@wvgraber , Nice System, my feelings exactly.
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@mahlman , you have to be very careful with specs when it comes to bass. What a speaker does at 1 meter is a far cry from what it would do in a room at 3 meters. Most woofers can move fine at 20 Hz but it does not mean they are actually radiating the sound with any authority.
@phusis ,I am honored that you would spend so much time analyzing my post.
It sounds like we are on the same side of the ile. We both use computer audio and not dedicated music streamers like an Aurender. I suspect you are a PC guy and I have to admit that my computer knowledge is somewhat lacking. But, the sound cards I have heard, and I have not heard all of them did not sound as good as an Apple driving a Berkley Alpha USB. They were obviously veiled for some reason and I suspect why many dis computer audio. I would not go any other way.
My point about brains is that each brain has it's own way of interpreting it's senses. Some interpretations are better than others. Just because someone thinks a certain something sounds better does not mean it will to other people. You can only trust the opinion of other people who interpret sound the way you do. I have two such people in my life. A multitude of issues will determine sound interpretation, looks and price are the two big ones. In my world they do not count one iota other than there are certain pieces of equipment I like that I can not afford, at least for the time being.
You are quite correct. Horn loaded drivers do not have to work near as hard because they are impedance matched to the air. Very few people use subwoofer horns because they are extremely large and they tend to have their own resonance problems. Forgetting about horns everything else I said is true. Someone mentioned foam surrounds as being best. It depends on the design and intension of the driver. I will say if you see a subwoofer with a foam surround, run away. I have seen to many of them fail including the Velodynes I ran for a decade or so. One of them is now the base for a fish tank. The vast majority of sub drivers are made with butyl rubber surrounds for a reason.
Take any pair of 12" or 15" sub drivers in an appropriate sealed enclosures. Put them in a 15' X 30' room, cue up a 20 Hz test tone and turn it up to 90 dB. What you will see are cones flying in approximately a 1" blur, a little less for the 15 cone. What you will hear is your whole house rattling. This is not my local context or my opinion. If you do not know this it is because you have not built enough subwoofers. What is "local" is that I only expect dynamic drivers to make noise below 100 Hz. Most residential folded horns run up to 350 Hz. K horns used to be 500 Hz. That is not bass anymore. Middle C is 256 hz. It is well into the midrange.Then you are faced with another huge problem. A large chunk of your midrange is five feet behind the rest of your speaker. That is a 5 ms group delay! In order to make that work you will have to biamp the speaker and put a 5 ms delay on the high frequency drivers using DSP. I always wanted to try that with K horns to see what you would get. I have another local problem. I use Line source loudspeakers. In order to match their radiation characteristics I had to create a line source subwoofer array using 4 subwoofers. On a 16 foot wall 4 subwoofer horns would be a site to see. I am working on a new system with 8 subwoofers. The four 12" subs I am using right now are working too hard and on occasion I run them into their bump stops. They have a X max of 19 mm. That is a 38 mm excursion. In a 16 foot wide room. It takes a lot to make powerful sub bass, a lot more than most people think. I do not have any problem with multiple drivers. I would use larger ones but then the size of the enclosures would be prohibitive in my "local" situation.
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I don't think you can get great sound from an internal sound card. My system is also pc based- converted my best vinyl to 24-bit/192 kHz on a decent system (Benz Ref cartridge; Graham Mk 2 tonearm; Sota Cosmos w/ vacuum; Blue Electric Virus phono stage or Audio Research SP10 Mk 2 Preamplifier; RME Babyface A/D; to Adobe Audition). Played back directly from the PC they suck. Played back via a decent USB DAC I can't tell the difference and haven't found anyone who can.
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While it does use large excursion woofers from Tang Band, Danley makes a sub that goes down to 17hz with 8" woofers. THSpud | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
There are plans to build these out there and the one I have which was given to me unfinished remains that way since real deep bass does not interest me much. Horn subs operate by different rules and what you need is a proper design. To go down low with small excursion woofers in subs means much more box volume and some pretty good length.
As Phusis says low excursion works just fine in the right horn for low bass. The Danley is a pretty small box so it has to have large excursion woofers to work.
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@mijostyn --
"... I did not say there were not other ways. They are generally a lot more expensive, not any better sounding and have limited functionality vs a full fledged computer. My system doubles as a theater. I can also stream videos and movies as well as any audio service. I can record records to the hard drive and AB various versions of ...you name it. IMHO music servers are an insane waste of money. It is like comparing the pricing of commercial vs consumer audio equipment. Hint, professionals are not as easily conned."
Can’t really say what you’re after here, but I’ll bite: pro digital output PCIe sound cards from RME, Lynx and Marian, not least Word clocked, to my ears are the easy and generally cheaper equivalent to USB or USB to S/PDIF offerings - the latter of which have been the hot cakes in computer audiophilia for several years now, and are a true PITA to be brought to their fuller potential (go figure). No indeed, pro’s aren’t easily conned; naturally they’re not going for the latter option.
And regarding PC’s/music servers: mine IS a fully fledged full ATX-sized DIY computer with care taken into a low ripple and powerful PSU, mobo choice, processor, RAM, etc. and overall implementation. A lot more could be done here, but it’s a balancing act with other areas that need attention as well.
"One last thing. The problem with ears is that they are connected to a brain and when brains are concerned all bets are off. Example. Have a dispute with your wife then go mow down 50 people with an SUV. Sometimes brains really s-ck."
Getting down to brass tacks: if one’s ears deems it’s worth going for, it is. If not.. And let me bring it to you - peoples brains seem to f*ck up their decision making perfectly well without the aid of hearing. Often it’s all about the proper narrative, and if it wasn’t as much about spousal-imposed restrictions, aesthetics, conjecture, prejudice, convention, snobbery etc. and a little more about what hits the ears only, well, that’d be something to cherish, I find.
"The material a surround it made from really does not matter. It is the design of the surround given the drivers intended use. Certain designs work best with certain materials. Subwoofers need a large X max and a long throw, low compliance suspension requiring large dual spiders and butyl surrounds. Foam surrounds are a poor choice for subwoofer drivers as the stress causes even the good foam to disintegrate. 25 years is not good enough. A suspension should never fail."
That a suspension material doesn’t fail for several decades is just a convenience. Foam surrounds allow for application in designs that otherwise wouldn’t be properly implemented, so yes you’re right; it’s what the design dictates. Subwoofers don’t necessarily need long throw drivers with butyl surrounds though, but more on that below.
"... unless you are using an insanely large driver (21") you are not going very low at all. In order to move the amount of air required to produce a 20 Hz note a 12 or 15" driver has to move quite a distance especially at volume. Even at moderate levels the excursions would be plainly noticeable. If they are not then your woofers are not doing anything below 40 Hz. It is simple physics and it does not matter what type of enclosure you are using. Distortion does increase with excursion distance after a point. Modern subwoofer drivers can easily do 1 cm excursions without distortion, some up to 2 cm. Down below 40 Hz it is not what you hear that counts. It is what you feel. A 20 Hz sine wave played at just 75 dB causes my entire house to rattle. I have four 12" subwoofers in a 16 foot wide room and you can see the excursions across the room."
You make absolutes from a local context - your own. No, a 12" or 15" driver doesn’t have to jump wildly about to make to some rumbling at 20Hz, but you’re right that they will in a sealed enclosure with max. excursion at the tune - that’s also physics. I can tell you for sure that a 15" B&C pro driver with accordion cloth surround and +/- 9mm Xmax in a pair of tapped horns like I’m using only vibrates at levels down to 20-ish Hz that shakes the air quite violently, because the horn enclosure and the specific loading of the driver does the heavy lifting with excursion minima at the tune. They’ll each do ~120dB’s at the LP @ 20-25Hz and stay within the B&C’s Xmax limits - that’s a damn fact. Actually, add a few dB’s because they’re corner loaded.
Where it does get hairy is sub 20Hz into the infrasonics. This is where you need a couple of big a** drivers to produce proper pressure to make these ultra low frequencies matter as something that reverberates your whole body. To some a subwoofer (for the term to be strict) should cover down to 10Hz, but mostly that’s fruitless unless you have the right floor and room construction and über displacement capacity plus -wattages at hand. Horns would be quite big indeed to do the honors down that low, but you’d get away with using fewer drivers.
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@jssmith RE the Realtek I had forgotten about Tom's. I used to go there for graphics card reviews but never thought about audio. I have heard a number of systems and the definition I heard with the Realtak was what kept me there.
I find it interesting though that Tom's likes the idea of a PC based music server. I can mix and match and have a set for the day and another for tomorrow grabbed out of almost 2TB of music. I would have it no other way.
I am going to try that Mini DSP HD on my smaller two way soon. I hear good things about it and it sure is cheaper than Xilicas.
I agree with the idea to save money is the only reason to start DIY you might not save any especially if you place a dollar amount on your time to learn. I am fortunate in that design software and a Haas VF-4 for milling were allready paid for from my metal working business so the tools to make things and skills were there.
DIY can still be cheaper though if you go with proven designs and flat packs and the associated proven drivers and beat the pants of virtually all the audio store offerings. #1 problem I have seen with inexperience is the idea you can just take all that stuff you have accumulated over the years and cut holes in wood, assemble and it will just sound wonderful. Does not work that way.
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Similar experience, but I don't do it because it's something I couldn't buy. For me, there's a satisfaction about building your own. Also, I don't like to waste money and DIY can be much cheaper. And I respect certain independent speaker designers because they focus on what's audible over what's saleable. My secondary system has DIY Linkwitz LXMinis with a chain of Amazon Music HD via Alexa (or FLAC on MusicBee cast wirelessly from a laptop) > DTS Play-Fi > Paradigm PW Link > MiniDSP 2x4 HD > AIYIMA A07 amps > LXMinis. When using Alexa, which I do 95% of the time, the system is completely voice-controlled. Even turning it on is voice-controlled, so I literally never have to touch anything. I even wrapped 12 gauge OFC speaker cable in braided sleeves.
The MiniDSP had the PEQs pre-programmed for this setup. The LXMinis are accurate when measured with REW, and they hit all the attributes when listening to the Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc, but I've always thought they could use more bass, which isn't going to happen because, besides a subwoofer or two, it would require a new $500 MiniDSP and new PEQ programming. And since this is a secondary system, I don't want to spend the money. Overall, this system cost less than $1,500, including the laptop and Echo.
My future primary system is partially built (lacks cosmetics and a suitable place to place them for now) and consists of DIY BFM Davids. They have been tested with vintage amps being fed by a SMSL Sanskrit 10th Mk II DAC sourced by my phone. If you consider my vintage Pioneer SA-8800 into the cost, this system cost less than $2,000. About the same as just one of my HT subwoofers cost new.
Since you've decided to stick with the Real-Tek, I suspect you've read the Tom's Hardware DAC test, which would give you comfort in your selection. I decided to go with the SMSL just to get the best measurements for the best value.
However, I would dissuade inexperienced DIYers from this endeavor if their goal is to save money because after they buy all the tools, supplies and whatnot, they likely won't. And it's very likely they'll screw up something, which will cost even more money.
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@mijostyn On the two way with 12"double woofers I go down to around 35hz before serious drop off. The all horn setup however throws that rule out the window and now going down to 27hz is no issue and that gets me virtually all the common instruments. A horn will easily go down to 20hz or lower if I were to build one for that with little excursion at any volume I am willing to listen at. Really deep bass is not pleasant to me and I avoid it. I have never built with being a pure subwoofer as my intent.
The Super MWM bass bin mentioned at the begining of this thread for instance was derived from an MCM 1900 Klipsch set designed for 600 seat venues.It can just loaf along and give more db's then I can handle.
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@phusis , I did not say there were not other ways. They are generally a lot more expensive, not any better sounding and have limited functionality vs a full fledged computer. My system doubles as a theater. I can also stream videos and movies as well as any audio service. I can record records to the hard drive and AB various versions of ...you name it. IMHO music servers are an insane waste of money. It is like comparing the pricing of commercial vs consumer audio equipment. Hint, professionals are not as easily conned.
One last thing. The problem with ears is that they are connected to a brain and when brains are concerned all bets are off. Example. Have a dispute with your wife then go mow down 50 people with an SUV. Sometimes brains really s-ck.
The material a surround it made from really does not matter. It is the design of the surround given the drivers intended use. Certain designs work best with certain materials. Subwoofers need a large X max and a long throw, low compliance suspension requiring large dual spiders and butyl surrounds. Foam surrounds are a poor choice for subwoofer drivers as the stress causes even the good foam to disintegrate. 25 years is not good enough. A suspension should never fail.
@mahlman , unless you are using an insanely large driver (21") you are not going very low at all. In order to move the amount of air required to produce a 20 Hz note a 12 or 15" driver has to move quite a distance especially at volume. Even at moderate levels the excursions would be plainly noticeable. If they are not then your woofers are not doing anything below 40 Hz. It is simple physics and it does not matter what type of enclosure you are using. Distortion does increase with excursion distance after a point. Modern subwoofer drivers can easily do 1 cm excursions without distortion, some up to 2 cm. Down below 40 Hz it is not what you hear that counts. It is what you feel. A 20 Hz sine wave played at just 75 dB causes my entire house to rattle. I have four 12" subwoofers in a 16 foot wide room and you can see the excursions across the room. I made my enclosures with Corian laminated to MDF with a layer of glass microspheres in between. Each one weights 200 lb. They are sealed.
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@mahlman --
"If pure sound quality was the metric they use I can only think they have not heard such a system. I suspect however that there is a lot of snobery involved and it is just "not possible" that serious hobbiests can build better than the high end audio store offerings."
"High-end" audio is a genre, even; it is as much defined by character and limitations as it cultivates certain virtues in reproduction, while not least being overly expensive. Our "playground" would seem to challenge the narrative of audiophiles-at-large that it’s moved outside their field of interest. Indeed, one can only do so much to get them to assess with an open mind, if they ever meet up.
"I find that when I have to put a lot of watts into a speaker to get decent volume I have also lost some fidelity. On a two way double 12" woofer + a horn top I have built the least I considered was 99db on the woofers. These things have great crsip sound and tremendous fidelity and even with Bach organ up pretty loud you have to put your hand on the cone to feel the excursion since visually it is almost imperceptible. I also prefer cloth accordian surrounds which only come with more efficient woofers.
I have about lost interest in 15" woofers which just don’t sound as tight to me as a good 12". Impacts on percussion are sharper and realistic acoustic string resonance is more defined for example."
I was at one point hellbent on all-horn, and while this is still largely where I’m coming from there are variations in design to attain an end goal that is hugely satisfying. A departure of sorts early on was choosing Tapped Horn subs instead of the more classical Front Loaded Horn dittos, which is really about maximizing the potential of a given cone size using both its front and back wave while attaining excursion minima at the tune (as opposed to a FLH that has the driver placed in a sealed chamber and excursion max. at tune). Then came the experiment choosing dual, vertically placed and direct radiating 15’s to closely mimic the dispersion pattern at the cross-over from the large HP9040 horn for a better uniformity and coherency of sound. High-passing those 15’s fairly high means movement is reduced to zilch, even at close to war volume, and the 15" drivers in the TH subs only vibrate at volumes that are physically overwhelming. Next may be trying out another variation on the 6th order BP that shaves off a wee bit size (from 20 to 16 cf.) but adds pro driver size from 15 to 21" and has a variable tune. They’re dynamite in a relatively limited package, and it pays off in dividends with regard to smooth, effortless and natural bass reproduction also due to a cleaner and more extended upper range.
My preferred surround types are cloth and foam. Foam is very low loss and more modern foams last up to about 25 years. Cloth is also very good, lasts longer, but is usually best at limited excursion (as in your case). Rubber I try to avoid, and has for some time now.
@mijostyn --
"... use a USB DAC or a USB to SPDIF converter to a DAC."
There are other ways, equally well or better sounding to my ears.
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I believe the OP asked which Dell computer I had problems with. It is a XPS 8030, custom configured. I replaced the chintzy 370 watt power supply that Dell put in a $2700.00+ computer with a state of the art 800 watt power supply. I had lots of trouble when I was running a few programs and the computer would run out of power, causing it to reboot many times and then it didn't any more. I had paid $400.00 extra for their best soundcard and it still sounded like junk. I will never, ever buy another Dell.
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@simonmoon That is my experience too although I designed and built the box for my double 12" woofer + horn speaker. 25MM Baltic Birch box + drivers and for a bit over 1G I have something that beats the doo doo out of 24G speakers I hear at the Nashville fancy speaker store.
I used acoustic foam in my box as I was more concerned about standing waves and not box resonance.
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I have been a long time advocate of DIY with regards to speakers. There are so many great, very high end level speaker kits available, by well respected designers. The end results are almost guaranteed to best the sound of commercially available speakers that would cost at least 5 times as much.
Designers such as: (the late) Jeff Bagby, Jim Holtz and Curt Campbell, Troel Graveson, Javad Shadzi, Paul Carmody, and quite a few more, have various kits, that easily rival high end speakers.
I am currently using a pair of Jeff Bagby’s "Auricle" speakers (RAAL tweeter, 6" SB Acoustics Sartori mid), sitting on a pair of Jeff’s woofer modules (10" SB Acoustics Sartori woofer). And a DIY powered sub.
Auricle
Woofer Module
I have about $2100 spent on the speakers (without sub) for the kits, the wood, the veneer, and miscellaneous parts. I have heard enough $10,000 speakers, to know, that my speakers sound as good.
I also lined the inside of the enclosures with mass loaded vinyl, and the front baffle is built using simple but effective constrained layer damping.
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@mijostyn it does go low. The difference is the proper tuned cabinet and good cloth surround efficient speakers make for yummy bass without all that excursion that tends to add distortion also. Bass seems to be enjoyed by most in two flavors. One is crisp and clean sound like what you would hear in person. The other is a sort of club thump that is not as accurate but appeals to many. It makes my ears hurt just thinking about what you describe and that is not what I am seeking at all.
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@mahlman , your organ must not go down very low. When I crank mine with a recording of the Boardwalk Hall Organ the cones of all four 12" subs move an inch and your vision blurs. Fun!
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@stereo5 , sorry to hear about your experience with the Dell. You never use the sound card in the computer. You use a USB DAC or a USB to SPDIF converter to a DAC. IMHO for audio use Apples are better. With programs like Pure Vinyl and Pure Music you can go anywhere and produce state of the art results.
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Eminence Kappa 12A. The really nice thing is it is one of the cheaper woofers also but at 12" I doubt you can use it.
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I find that when I have to put a lot of watts into a speaker to get decent volume I have also lost some fidelity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is what I have been trying to tell the folks here, the simply truth that higher sens speakers are superior to xover types. They refuse to listen Sure I have 100 true watts and have power to drive any Sonus Faber, Rockport, Wilson, Dali,,
but at higher gain on the amp,, = less fidelity.
This is a very simple truth but the xover camp does not wish to consider. xover types are dinasaurs.
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I'm running dual W18E001's /Seas with my FR, 87 db, its low but very damp, no resonances.
Which woofer at 99 db is this??
I might take a look and consider swapping out the Seas W18 at 87db for a higher sens woofer.
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"The Fr has 95db sensitivity. Anything higher than 95db is not going to work in my system,."
I find that when I have to put a lot of watts into a speaker to get decent volume I have also lost some fidelity. On a two way double 12" woofer + a horn top I have built the least I considered was 99db on the woofers. These things have great crsip sound and tremendous fidelity and even with Bach organ up pretty loud you have to put your hand on the cone to feel the excursion since visually it is almost imperceptible. I also prefer cloth accordian surrounds which only come with more efficient woofers.
I have about lost interest in 15" woofers which just don't sound as tight to me as a good 12". Impacts on percussion are sharper and realistic acoustic string resonance is more defined for example.
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