Thanks to everyone who took the time to contribute to this discussion. I received lots to think about before dropping the big bucks, or euros. |
Living in Europe, you should consider Naim speakers, some of which are specifically designed for wall placement. |
Oeiras99,
At the show I described earlier, the Carmels and V-2 were played in a very large room, I would guess at least 1200 square feet, and ability to play at high volume was not an issue for either. As for the price, I don't know if the Carmels have come down in price, but, I believe they were being represented as selling for a lot less than $18,000 (I am sorry, I can't remember the price quoted).
I have heard a number of other speakers that are specifically designed for near wall or corner placement. The various models from Audionote (uk) come to mind. These speakers vary WIDELY in price, even though they are basically similar speakers, in terms of design. The difference is a matter of refinement of components. These models are the complete opposite of the Carmel and Magico speakers. If one did a kind of check off of basic characteristics, they are NOT impressive. They don't go deep down into the bass (they tend to fake deep bass with a mid bass bump), they don't deliver the last bit of detail, etc. But, when it comes to musical enjoyment, they are terrific (to me). They have the kind of liveliness without being brittle, dry or overly bright, that is hard to find in many speakers. They are also quite easy to drive and thrive with lower powered tube gear. If looks matters, unfortunately, they come in a very plain looking box.
A much prettier looking speaker that I've heard placed very close to a back wall while still sounding very good is the Gradient Revolution. This is a speaker designed to accomodate difficult placement. |
Living in Europe, as I do, some of these esoteric (to my knowledge) brands are not available. To avoid import duty, I am favoring the Dynaudios, made in Denmark. However, I am now also considering the US-made Thiel 3.7s, for their looks and, according to the manual, ability to play close to the long wall. |
Hi Oeiras. I'm also shopping, and while I've not heard the YGs, I auditioned the C1s and also the Dyn Sapphires. You've got a broad (and not small) price range, and, like others, I think it makes sense to widen the search. My guess is the C1 needs a bit of room, but there are a some designs that are targeted for, or function well as, near wall. If you search "near wall" or "North Creek" here, you'll find suggestions. I've puffed about my North Creek Eskas here more than once (sorry!), and they do sound nice (with some compromise) very close to the front wall. In my (humble) opinion, the C1s (which to my ear bear the stamp of efforts to get low end out of a tiny box) do not conspicuously best the Eskas, and I strongly suspect the new North Big Kat (also a near wall design) would be *very* competitive for 4k. Other designs I've listened to that I think could be made to work near wall are Gallo 3.5s, Selahs, and (oddly, given their size) Legacy Whispers. Together with the Norths (which are hard to audition), these all might be on your list. Good luck, John |
"Dynaudio is more like a fairy tale :)"
lol, Funniest statement I have read in the long time.... |
Try to listen to an ATC SCM50. I moved from Dyns to ATC. Both are special sounding, ATC is way more honest and true sounding. Dynaudio is more like a fairy tale :). |
Wise words Jaybo. I intend to take my time and audition seriously. Meantime I'll enjoy some music. |
your speakers will compete with the ones you are looking at. you can drop 20k and get only 'arguably' better performance. the synchrony...imo...has a different house sound than the platinum....strangly more retro sounding. you may want to think about any change for awhile longer..its not like you don't have 'great' loudspeakers. |
How about a Vandersteen 5 A priced in your range as well as
a full range phase and time correct design.
With this particular design you can be confidently sure the final results would work for you.
We have tuned them at only 4 inches from close wall placement with wonderful results and still maintained a plus or minus 3 DB bass response to 24 Hz without room overload.
Best Johnnyr |
My dealer who has knowledge of my system recommended the YGs; Dynaudios were recommended by a trusted audiophile friend. Also, the review in Stereophile indicates that the C1s can benefit by proximity to the wall, as quoted: 'Dynaudio is correct in that the C1 is relatively easy to place in relation to room boundaries. This was a bigger issue in my small room, where being able to place them near the front and sidewalls returned huge benefits in sonic holography.' |
Oeiras99, who recommended these speakers to you? Each speaker only sounds optimal when used in a free space configuration. Why aren't you looking for speakers that are designed and intended to be placed close to the rear wall? Search the archives. There are several posts on the subject. |
There seems to be some confusion about price differences between speakers being discussed. I am comparing the YG Carmel at $18k and the Dynaudio Confidence C1 at about $7.5k. These particular speakers have been recommended, thus the discussion. From comments so far (see Raquel), I am leaning toward the C1s, price notwithstanding. I like 2-way monitors which suit my room better than large speakers, like Magico floor standers. |
OK, I was assuming V2 was more in that minis are monitors and more as pointed out. It was an apples and apples comparison price wise then between the YGs and Magicos. Thanks for clarifying that.
Regardless, I expect all speakers in those price categories to be absolute top notch and buyer preference the main determining factor. |
The YG Carmel is a floor standing two-way for about $18,000. The Magico V2 is a floor standing 2 1/2-way for $18,000. The Magico Mini II is a two-way monitor on stands for $32,000. I don't know about the Dynaudio that the OP is considering.
Though I was not there, that comparison demo referred to above between the Carmel and the V2 was for two evenly priced speakers, so the comparison makes sense though it was set up to benefit the YG, I'm sure.
The comments above about the YG and Magico being a lot different in price (Mapman and Oeiras99) must be referring to the Magico Mini II at $32K, but I don't think that that speaker was part of the YG demo.
I hope this clarifies what seems rather confusing from the various posts above. I'm sorry I can't offer anything helpful about the Dynaudios. |
I wasn't trying to be wise ass with my above comment. YGs advertising just seems to me to be the height of hubris and actually prevents me from wanting to hear them.
But maybe I'm not their marketing audience. |
I have no experience with the YG's. Regarding the C1's, one of my dealers has sold them for years and I know someone who gave them a very careful audition up against the Dynaudio Special 25. Both sources report that the C1's are superb monitors.
The dealer said that they are somewhat forward sounding (a bit of prominence in the upper midrange) and that some people are put off by this, and he said that, being a monitor, they can't handle power like a large speaker, but that they do have more headroom than most monitors. Again, overall, he said they are superb.
My acquaintance reported that both Dynaudios are really good, but that the C1 is more refined than the Special 25.
I ran 3.3's for a few years and can tell you that Dynaudio USA very much liked Bryston amps for my speakers, saying that Dyna's like power. I would think, however, that the limitations of Bryston amps (some grain, use of negative feedback, too many output devices mucking thing up) would be more apparent with C1's than with the 3.3's, the former presumably being the better speaker.
Again with the caveat that I have not heard the YG's and do not know the details of the crossover design (which YG is intentionally vague about), the YG's appear to have a complex crossover. I like the openness imparted by well implemented first-order designs, notwithstanding their drawbacks, so on paper at least, I would expect the Dyna's to be more to my liking, but who knows. |
Jaybo and Mapman raised the possibility of PSB Synchrony as being lower cost competitors to the YGs and Magicos. Since I am already using PSB Platinum M2s (which are the top of the PSB line), would there be any advantage to change speakers? This is an interesting point since in my opinion the PSBs punch far above their weight. |
Under other circumstances I would consider the Magicos but I am comparing two speakers at much different price points because the Confidence C1s and Carmels have been recommended to work well close to the front wall. My PSB M2s do that very well, and are very impressive, especially on female vocals (e.g. Diana Krall and Holly Cole) but maybe the others would be an upgrade. |
Ironically, I preferred the Magico even though the demo was for YG benefit apparently.
It was close though and Magico's are a lot more I suppose. I guess that was the intent to show YG similar to Magico for less.
Again they both sounded spot on with minor differences. Its just the cost I question, not the sound quality.
The music playing was a very good female jazz vocal with spare accompaniment as I recall. It was very lifelike with both, but again I would want to hear a few more challenging things before dropping those big bucks. The sound was arguably best in show with either. Only the custom GOTO horn room was as good for me and that was a different more aggressive yet very nice sound. |
I have not heard the Carmels, though I have heard the Magico V2. I would not trust any direct comparison between two $18,000 speakers, or any equipment for that matter, as set up by only one of the two designers. I can't help but think that particular demo was rigged to benefit YG, especially reading how these two designers react to each other.
I did hear a demo of the V2 at a dealership and it was the single best dealer demo of any speaker I've ever heard. (disclaimer, I now own a pair of Mini II's, so admit I'm biased) We did need to move the V2 around by a few inches to get it to sound best. My point is that if 1" movements can make the V2 sound dramatically different, how fair was that demo?
Listen to both the Carmel and Dynaudio in your own system and then decide. |
Tidals might be included on the expense list, don't know about their sound or value. |
Not sure YG is tube amp friendly. Pre-amp maybe.
They sounded really good. I just question the cost and value. I liked the Magico better but they cost even more. I think the others mentioned (Dynaudio, PSB and OHM) can challenge for much less. |
Seems like the YG's could benefit more from a tube preamp or amps ? |
there are lots of way less expensive designs that are also champs of transparency. try a pair of OHMs first and see from there. |
Thanks for the useful comments so far. The problem of distance from the front wall is my biggest worry as I chose the PSBs because they port at the front and, spiked, deliver a tight and adequate bass. The Dynaudio Confidence C1s port at the back which could be an issue. I don't know about the YGs but have read that they can have difficulty filling a large room with high-level sound, which gives me pause. For that price, I would expect a speaker to be limitless. However, they are supposed to be champs of transparency. My dealer is arranging an audition soon. Of course there is no comparison in price between the Dyns and Carmels as the YGs are over twice the price of the C1s. |
Hey, I heard the YG Acoustics are the "Best" speakers in the world. |
Both typically benefit from more distance from rear wall I believe. |
"Based upon the replies am I to believe that people think either of the speakers he mentions would work well when place 1 foot from the rear wall?"
No speaker will be best that close to the wall. The mids will rap around the speaker and hit the back wall, this will color the sound stage and timbre. The bass gain will be unavoidable, but with smaller speakers (Carmel, C1) that do not reach sub 30hz, and have limited bass displacement it will be lessened. |
Based upon the replies am I to believe that people think either of the speakers he mentions would work well when place 1 foot from the rear wall? |
I've heard the YG at a couple shows and have never been impressed by them, Dynaudio's are much more to my liking. |
I heard the YG Carmels at the Washington DC audio show myself, but not the Magicos. I have the exact same reaction to the Carmels as Larryi and Mapman. VERY interesting speakers. |
YEs, Jaybo, I was thinking of the Synchronys as a similar sound for lower cost. THey have a lot of the same strengths I heard with the YGs and Magicos that day for much less. THey are a line I would strongly consider if I were in the market.
The Magicos and YGs in that demo had very good electronics behind them and a lot of room to breathe in the room where they were demoed. That really helped them put forward their best face as is the case with many larger or more hi end designs. If that is not the case as well back home, results would vary. Make sure the speakers fit the room depending on how they can be placed there. |
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I heard the same Yg and Magico demonstration.
I thought both sounded very good, but was not sure of the value overall compared to other things I've heard for less, at least with teh Magicos. Not sure how much the YGs go for.
Yg was a bit leaner sounding to me than Magico.
Did not hear enough different kinds of music on them to get the total picture.
They are all good. Yg and Magico looked more different than they sounded to me. I think it mostly boils down to personal preference. I like Dynaudio a lot. |
Never heard the YG's but do own C1's. Depending on your room size and seating position both Dyn's are great speakers. That being said my room is approx 12' X 26'. Speakers on the long wall (I have no other choice). At my Dyn dealer the C2's kick butt compared to the C1's. But in my listening position at my home I need near field. When I had the C2's in my home it was very different. What I mean there was a wall of sound coming at me. Could I get used to that?? I'm pretty sure I could but stuck with the C1's. I did run with and without my Rel B3 sub. Either way in my home the C1's are great and the C2's were no where near as good sounding as at my Dyn dealer.
You really need to hear both yourself preferably in your home.
Good Luck |
the yg acoustics with there very stiff alum cabinet are made to sound very fast, dynamic, with low coloration.
The highs are refine, the mids are smooth but eerss on the thin side of things. Bass is tight and articulate.
The dynaudio would be more musical in my opinion.
Not as tightly sounding as the YG but smoother, warmer and fuller sounding.
Just make sure you have enough power with the dyns. These really come alive with good power.
I've also heard the Magicos & while very high end sounding, i felt there were a bit too pricey for what they were giving in return. |
Between the two Dynaudio would get the nod from me. I think the C-4 is a very good speaker. That's why they hardly if ever come up used. There is a pair listed right now for $7900. |
I heard the Carmel at an audio show in the Wash DC area a few months ago. The pair was set up in a large room, well away from the walls, and were powered by Solution solid state amplifiers.
I listened to the speakers for about two hours. This was an interesting experience. Almost immediately, I knew these were quite special speakers -- very clear, very detailed and capable of very accurately delivering the tonal qualities, harmonic structure and subtle "texture" of acoustic instruments. These speakers were also quite lively sounding in to an extent beyond the capabilities of MOST conventional dynamics speakers (somewhat like large horn systems). But, there was also a lean and somewhat dry and analytical quality to the sound (could be the electronics) even though the speakers were only slightly bright. I don't know if, in the long run that quality would become a major annoyance in the long run, but, its positive attributes make it worth finding out by extended listening and experimenting with other gear if you also find this speaker too dry sounding.
The speakers were also demonstrated in direct comparison with a pair of Magico V-2 speakers (moved into the exact same spot as the Carmel was located). Of course the speaker placement was optimized for the Carmel so the V-2 would have to be "lucky" to share the same ideal location. This was a very interesting comparison. The V-2 sounded warmer (more upper bass) which was a positive attribute, but, considerably less articulate (muddy sounding by comparison) and slightly less dynamic. Overall, I think I preferred the Carmel in this demonstration.
One of the more exciting and interesting prospects I have heard even though I have some serious reservations about the overall "gestalt" of the experience. |
I've heard the YG's - they set them up for us at an Arizona Audiophile Society meeting. To these ears they were VERY quick, with little if any overhang, but they didn't sound like music to me.....Dynaudios DO. |
I have not heard either of these speakers, but what is your price range? It just seems like two odd choices because of the price difference (Carmel=$18,000, and C1=$7500 I believe).
Also there is a pair of YG Kipods on Audiogon for $16,000 right now.... just a thought. |
