This amp is anything but “sterile and lifeless”. In the current rotation of amps I’m using to power my Apogees, it is the most dynamic and involving. It just sounds right to me. Of course, that is for my taste. I have a friend who prefers my Jeff Rowland by a slight bit. However, he comes from a system that has Magneplanars powered by Prima Luna mono blocks. To me, the Rowland is pleasant, but doesn’t quite have the impact of the 23.5.
73 responses Add your response
Resurrecting this old thread…. I’m very surprised at some of the opinions on here regarding the sound of an ML23.5 compared to more “modern” amps. Please. The whole fallacy that audio technology and sound quality moves in this infinitely linear progression towards perfection over time is rubbish. There are countless vintage components that sound as good or better than their contemporary counterparts. My floor is littered with both classic vintage and modern amplifiers. The 23.5 might be the best sounding amp I own. It certainly is not demonstrably worse than ANY modern amplifier I have tried, as some would have you believe. The reconditioning is a valid concern, however I think an investment of $5000 ($2500 for the amp and $2500 recap) will get you an amp that absolutely slaughters comparable modern amplifiers in terms of value and more than holds its own with sonics. |
Uh oh, sooner or later you may regret buying the Krell. Everything you and others were stating, regarding how timelessly good Mark Levinson gear is, I believe is true. My only personal ML excellent experience is with a ML 326S preamp but I don't think I could be more impressed or pleased with its performance in my system. I don't recall reading such exemplary praise being bestowed upon older Krell gear but maybe there is some and I just missed it. Best wishes, Tim |
Hello jeffvegas, Glad to hear you're back on track.My local dealer sold Levinson during the Madrigal era, and I remember the transition from the 23.5 to the 331/332/333 and later the 334/335/336. I never owned any of the 33X series stuff, however, I listened to it plenty. Mostly on Wilson Watt/Puppys and Thiels back then. The sound of the 335 was definitely on par with the 23.5, as I recall. The George Meyer 335 looks like a sound deal, and a safe way to go. |
@jeffvegas, key point is comment by @testpilot, and agree. nothing wrong with the amp, but they are known for running hot and being hard on caps. so maybe first question you need to ask is can you recap it yourself? If so then by all means jump in with both feet. If those skill sets are not yet developed then figure in the cost of getting it done at some point into your purchase price. best |
Back from Technetron listening to my system now with a big fat smile on my face. They did an outstanding job, the facility is not large its NYC space, the rooms were narrow, I was worried about scratches and dents but I found nothing they were very careful. They gave me a detail receipt with all parts and labor listed. Overall I received a bag with all the old parts including Resistors, Capacitors and Transistors. It says 14 hours of labor. They adjusted regulator bias, adjusted output and DC voltage and cleaned controls I have 90 days warrenty. I will go back to Technetron for future repairs they had high end equipment over there. In my opinion this is the best way to enjoy high end equipment, buy used at a great price and find a good repair shop. The parts they used are top of the line, all capacitors 105 degree Nichicon. The only negative comment I have is they did not accept credit cards, I could have gotten 2% cash-back lol, no big deal. As stated the amplifier should be good for another 14-15 years. I purchased a second used 23.5 for a low price in mint cosmetic condition it needs repair, going to save up some money and fix the second amp. I am still planning one day on buying the 33H going to save up and find the right pair at a good price that will be my dream system been planning this for many many years. |
Miss my 23.5. Casuality of the pandemic. Needed to sell for money. Looks like a No 335 is on my radar now. They are not cheap but either was the 23.5 I bought. Will this amp have the vibrant clarity and bass slam that the 23.5 has? Do they sound similar? What differences have you Levinson groupies heard between 3 series Levinson and the 23.5? I know the 3 series had cap problems but most out there have been fixed. |
I read your post and that made me post mine because we both have the same exact problem lol I will add one thing for you since we have a close system as well, I had the 380S and upgraded to the 32, its a big step in price but I will never sell my 32 it is the best non tube pre amp PERIOD, if you ever replace the 380 for the 32 I promise you will hear the difference immediately its like a window was opened, I apologize if I gave you the upgrade bug, believe me I have no regret, like many others I can't afford a new system and even at $9800 it was the biggest audio purchase I ever made, no regrets. |
OK here is my 2 cents, bought a 23.5 used about 7 years ago on Audiogon for $2500 I would rather live on the streets before selling it, this amplifier was used for many hours every day always gave me chills. I had it in storage for 2 years due to losing my job I had to relocate to another state for employment. After 2 years in storage I set up my audio gear few weeks latter I got the pop from the left speaker comes and goes (I wonder if this is due to not using the gear for such a long time) so I took my amplifier to Technetron in NYC an authorized Levinson repair shop. All the smaller silver capacitors were replaced and some soldering was done due to age of the system. I spoke with Pyramid and Technetron about this repair before I decided where to go, I was initially going to ship to Pyramid due to their reputation but shipping would have cost me hundreds of dollars so I went local. Let me state, Pyramid and Technetron both told me the big capacitors do not need to be replaced on the 23.5 they last forever, I told them I was willing to pay for the replacement but they insisted I was waisting money, this is coming from technicians that have over 15 years experience repairing Levinson gear, I was surprise cause I would have no problems giving them the money to replace the large capacitors. I am about to go pick up my amplifier in a few hours. I was told after the repair I should get 15 more years of joy with the 23.5 before I would need another repair I was told by the technician that the older Levinson were much better than the newer ones, they were hand made. He told me due to age and heat the boards in the amplifier turned brown he told me not to leave the amplifier on when I was not using it he said some people leave the amp on 24/7, my amplifier was on all day and only turned off before bed. A new amplifier at this level would cost over $12000 I highly doubt you get better sound than the older Levinson. My gear: Levinson 23.5 x 2 Levinson 32 Levinson 360S Dynaudio Confidence 5 |
I sent my Levinson 23.5 to Pyramid Audio about 2 weeks ago because the left channel was popping and crackling, and even going out completely sometimes. They just called yesterday to confirm the issue from their diagnosis and that it is time for the full rebuild. Time is about 30 hours of work over the next 3 weeks, and I should see it shipped back to me in about a month. Shipping is a pain of course due to the weight and bulk. I invested $300 in a heavy duty Pelican hard case to pack it in with soft foam, and then an outer box around the Pelican case. And shipping was about $200 as well, so this all in, is not a cheap investment and a lot of time packing/shipping/repairing for a 30 year old amp. |
I just finished reading this thread...really sorry to hear you had to sell your new found treasure, jeffvegas. Audiophiles are a fickle lot, so you'll get a crack at owning another one, or even a chance to buy yours back. Audiogon is like a pawnshop for audiophiles... Hopefully 2021 will be better for everyone. |
I just bought one with a mint exterior and an original interior. Still sounds good, but I'm going to pony up the scrilla to have it refurbished so the insides match the outsides. Legendary kick ass amp deserves a chance to drive a current pair of high current demanding legendary kick ass speakers. Cost is unimportant, we're all addicts here, aren't we? Good thing we still have two official old school Madrigal era service shops around. |
George Meyer told me to do NOTHING to the amp unless it breaks.I wouldn't either, but the way you were talking sounded like you were going to. If you do then do as I said with the cap banks. The 23.5 also killed a MACINTOSH mc402 . The sound of the 23.5 was far more open and detailed. Of course it did, just about anything does. But the MC275 is a different story. Cheers George |
George Meyer told me to do NOTHING to the amp unless it breaks. I wanted to replace caps etc. The tech there owns a 23.5 himself and told me to do NOTHING to the amp till it breaks. The engineers at MADRIGAL designed the 23.5 to last a LIFETIME. Which iN electronics terms is 50 YEARS. It could be the best built amp of all time. |
jeffvegas OP If you do that, then for that price he’s replacing the electrolytic power supply caps (and all others). Get him to replace the (high esr) big power supply caps per channel with banks of many 105c low esr caps instead, the amp will transform in the bass and speed of dynamics. 4 x of these would be great (120000uf per channel!!) 105c if mounted vertically in place of the big slow old caps, he may even be able to use the rectifiers on them or bypass them and use the original ML ones. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Assembled-6-10000uF-100V-Power-Amplifier-Power-Supply-Board-PSU-board-for-amp/312338006220?hash=item48b8cbc0cc:g:tEkAAOSwN2VZWzww Or these even better from the same guy "if the voltage is high enough" for 160000uf!! per channel note they are all high quality Nipon Chemi-con 105c Capacitors https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/8-10000uF-80V-Class-A-Amplifier-Power-Supply-Finished-Board-AMP-DIY/253027197008?hash=item3ae998a050:g:4NAAAOSwWv5Z9sh2 Cheers George |
Jeffvegas: I'm sorry to hear about your situation. This is a very bad condition for quite a lot of people and unfortunately many won't recover. Jobs are being lost at an alarming rate. I'm sorry you had to liquidate your equipment. Sigh! on top of losing income, to lose a favorite hobby of listening to great music hurts also. Hopefully, you will recover. |
I am so into this vintage thing now that I have heard what this old 23.5 can do. Just got done with a 3 hr listen and let me tell you I am now a Mark Levinson fanboy. If they built a amp to last 30 years and STILL sound good then this must be one of the greatest amps of all time. I am looking for a Mark Levinson preamp to match this 23.5 and I have located at 360s and 37 transport for super cheap. I see a place has a no 38s preamp for 2500 bucks so I think I am going to snag it. What's next? Vintage Krell stack? 400cx amp with a KCT preamp? KSA 80 with a KSL? THEY DONT MAKE EM LIKE THIS ANYMORE BOYS!! Well, they do. It's just SUPER EXPENSIVE. |
I read this thread with a lot of interest and appreciated all of the responses, even the naysayers. I bought a 23.5 last Fall as part of the system I put together that was purposely vintage 90's gear (380s preamp, 360s dac, 37 transport). My goal was nostalgia for when I worked at a high end store during 1994 and 1995 in high school and couldn't afford this stuff. My other goals were sound quality and build quality. Although I didn't cross compare other gear like Krell and Classe (i knew from the get-go that i was seeking out vintage Levibson gear) I have still been very impressed and satisfied with my investment. Jeff congrats on getting your 23.5 and it is great to hear your impressions so far. Like you I will also be planning a tune up and electronic component work on mine and you know what, I'm fine with that. It is worth keeping going another 20-30 years with a $2k or so investment. The question is, what will I use for an amp while my 23.5 is out for repair? Maybe I'll buy something else that I can use for a while but still easily resell. |
I am looking for another 23.5 to purchase so I have spare parts or if this one blows and cant get fixed I have a backup. 2500 bucks is nothing nowadays for an amp. This amp is seriously good for a 30 year old design. My neighbor was intrigued with the sound and somewhat shocked that it could sound as good as it did. He had to being his D'AGOSTINO MOMENTUM over to bring me back down to earth but I am still happy with my purchase and I didnt have to spend 200 grand for an amp. |
+1 on minorl’s comments. I have a 27, and Meyer quoted $2k+ to recap and update the boards with some parts replacements they would not describe. I decided to recap the amp myself, and waited over 3 months for a new run of capacitors to be manufactured. I replaced every electrolytic in the amp, as well as some slightly burned resistors, and as it happened, every output transistor, because 30% of them were substantially out of spec. Rather than just replace that 30% and try to match the new ones to the 30+-year old outputs, I replaced them all. Schematics for the 27, 27.5, and 23.5 are out there, but adjustment procedures are not well documented and because of the complicated design, are not similar to many other amp designs. It was the most difficult, and least enjoyable amp that I’ve worked on because of the complicated design and construction. Before the recap and parts replacement, I was really disappointed with the amp, and would have agreed with the negative comments here about the amp performance. At 100 wpc, it was not as powerful as my others (I have 8), but it lacked dynamics and definition. After all of my work, the amp sounds incredible. Working properly, these are wonderful amps, just a bear to work on and expensive to have work done by qualified Levinson techs.Have fun with your 23.5, but my recommendation would be to have the work done sooner than later to reduce chances for failures that could be even more costly, and I think you will then want to keep the amp for a very long time. |
Congratulations. The Mark Levinson 23.5 is one of the very best amps that Mark Levinson ever produced. It is wonderful. It is as good or better than most amps produced today. Period. It can drive any speaker quite well. Yes, it is a serious PITA to repair because of how the company put it together. But, not impossible. If the amp was in good shape and well looked after and the caps and other components are in working order, don't replace the caps. There was an upgrade to the 23.5 (yes, the 23.5) that was required by Mark Levinson that only authorized repair shops know about. So, if you have the cash for the cap upgrade and decide to do it, then request the upgrade also. I vouch for George Meyer AV in Los Angeles. They do very good work on pretty much any equipment. They are authorized by Mark Levinson, Audio Research and many others. Fortunately, when I don't want to work on equipment myself (quite rare), I have no problem using George Meyer technicians. They are open, friendly and know their stuff. I know you have already purchased the 23.5. But for anyone else considering it, if the heat sinks are black and the amp works and is in good shape, you are hard pressed to find a better amp. even today. This is one you absolutely hold on to. There are others out their that if found, grab. like Bedini amps (the 25/100/250 amps are great), Threshold, etc. anyway, enjoy your 23.5. |
The operational condition of the piece should be verified. I had one and enjoyed it very much. It had one failing that I only discovered after upgrading to a much better speaker- it didn't throw that 3-D image people refer to as a soundstage. But IMO it was powerful enough to drive anything and brought out textural information a lesser product would lack. It's also a classic looking amplifier that is well built without flashy cosmetics used by some (otherwise) great companies. You know what I mean. The company has had it's ups and downs, but in the end I would say it's stilla great choice regardless of all the jillions of other products out there. |
ML23.5 and it’s sibling 27.5 are great amps. @ozzy says ’sterile and lifeless’ Really? Have you had one at home and if so what amp did you compare it to. I notice you did not provide this information. I own both but the 27.5 no longer works. Will get on to it soon because it is definitely worth repairing. What would one have to spend to equal this performance, let alone surpass it? Because the 27.5 is much lighter I have hefted it along to friends systems and in every case it has bettered the competition. This includes Threshold, McIntosh, etc. It embarrased a big Bryston to the point where it’s owner wanted buy my ML there and then. Better mids than Krell KSA100. The one amp that challenged it for musicality was one of Bongiorno’s, a GAS son of ampzilla. Make sure your 23.5 is well ventilated and leave it permanently on. Has plenty of reserve power and usually does not have to work hard with the average speaker. Responds well to a good power cable. Enjoy |
This 30 year old LEVINSON is AMAZING!!! LEVINSON IS GOD!!! HAIL TO THE 23.5!!!! What for 2 grand new could even come close to this? I cant believe the clarity of this old amp. Vocals pop right out and are smooth with no grain. The bass is extraordinary. I had an ELECTRON KINETICS EAGLE 2 once which is know for its bass and this LEVINSON 23.5 blows it away!!! Dont know how long I will have till she pops and I will have to take her to George Meyer for a 2 grand fix, but until then this oldie but goodie can still rock!!! |