08-18-13: Richardkrebs
I totally agree with your assessment of the SP10 MK3. However this is, IMO not a result of its design, the use of a servo, or DD. I believe it is the way it is built. The tension, greyness and lack of ebb and flow, can be significantly mitigated. I dont agree with this comment. I hear a dissembling of musical flow and timing from the SP10's including the ones you have rebuilt. If we compare direct drives on their own, the Kenwood L07D and SP10 sound quite different in terms of musical flow and timing. The SP10mk3 will measure better than the L07D because the L07D error correction servos only work when the speed error is quite large. The L07D relies on inertia to minimise tiny speed inaccuracies, whereas the SP10mk3 servos are much more aggressive. The differences in the implementation of servos and their operating parameters are clearly discernible in the musical presentation of these 2 DD's which are quite different. The Technics SP10's in particular dissemble the music, musical timing and expression becomes compartmentalised and lacks flow. Jean Nantais has expressed the same view, he prefers the softer servos as used in the Sony DD's to the SP10. From my listening experiences neither of these DD's would compete with the top Micro Seiki's that I have heard in the areas of musical flow and coherence. The Gestalt of the music is lost with these DD's compared to a well implemented inertia driven system. It may well be that if one has lived with Direct Drives with the intrinsic servo jitter for 30 years or so it is possible ones ear does not detect these issues the way that others do. By the way, in response to your posts in the ET2 thread, I have now heard the full krebsupgrade and the SP10 in question sounds more woolly and ill defined than the earlier mule version of the exact same deck. |
Dear Dkarmeli
I totally agree with your assessment of the SP10 MK3. However this is, IMO not a result of its design, the use of a servo, or DD. I believe it is the way it is built.
The tension, greyness and lack of ebb and flow, can be significantly mitigated. On top of this, contrary to most contemporary views, in its as built form, the SP10 is quite noisy, but not in the conventionally measured way. It produces noise that rides along with the music. This modulation noise can be dramatically reduced.
Can it be made to equal the EMT? I have no idea, what I do know is that it can be made considerably better than standard.
Many thanks |
Raul said,
"Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?. It can't hurt if we know about."
True, but the rub is in what is measured, and how it is measured. Let's use speed control as an example. I make a turntable that is "speed accurate" to at least one part per million, which is the theoretical limit that can be achieved with an idler type drive due to the inherent tracking error of an idler wheel. I know that sounds impressive, but what does it tell us? The answer is not much, really. Why not? That is because such a measurement is an average.
Here's a hypothetical scenario. Let's assume that a given record has twelve transients of the same character on one side; say a cymbal crash followed by a low organ note. And, let's say that the turntable slows down 2% when it enters the transient, and speeds up 2% when it leaves the transient going into the low note, but only for a millisecond. Now, you have a smear in the music, and no matter how small it might be, the turntable is performing less than than optimum. So much for one the part per million measurement even if that is the average accuracy, right?
So, how could the measurement be beneficial? It is useful only for comparison with lesser turntables. However, if you calculate the inertia of the platter, then it would be useful without making some comparison that may, or may not, be a fair one. The reason that an inertia measurement along with a speed measurement would be useful is because then one could predict what might happen when transients are encountered. Nonetheless, it wouldn't necessarily tell anyone how the turntables sounds when compared to another one. Ears are best for that.
That crazy scenario is one example, but there are so many variables to almost every aspect of a turntable that developing a standardized system of meaningful specifications is virtually impossible. I would welcome such an endeavor, though. |
Dear Rauliruegas, "Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it " + "Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?." +I asked to Dkarmeli. If we are saying that the 927 is the holy grail: where are those facts that could prove with out doubt is in reality the hoily grail?
The conversation isn't about me liking it or not, I'm just another audiophile, with access to one who can confirm what others have heard and known long before I came along. The EMT 927 is a PROVEN REFERENCE and the Holy Grail without my liking it. There's years of history and track record and not only from the audiophiles but from the best recording engineers, top recording labels and mastering labs, from people who had access to best master tapes and knew recordings with access to everything under the sun and did it for living. It was always THE industry standard and holy grail from day one to the last day that they were made and that's nothing to do with my opinion of it. It was, is and will always be unique. Thank you Mr. Franz!
- "I heard several times the 930 and other TT EMT models in systems that I know very well and other that was my first time with. I'm not impressed for it in a different way that hearing other top TTs."
EMT wasn't concerned with the audiophiles, they built industrial grade professional equipment of the highest order. The 930 had a very different set of design parameters to the 927 or high end consumer tables you're thinking of. It wasn't a mastering reference it was a dj table with market specific qualities and wasn't all about sound. It delivered what that market wanted 24/7 in spades, that's why they dominated that market until cheaper Japanese dd tables arrived. They did the same job for a fraction of the price, and again sound quality was't the main criteria. If you really want to know the 930 stick any of those top tt's in the same environment and then compare them. They use to stick the 930s in a van and drive around cobblestone streets playing music. Repairs in the field, swap out cartridges on the fly, and get abused by all kinds of users and still sound pretty good, which high end consumer tt you know of is capable of that? EMT engineers accomplished what they set out to do with everything they designed. They had very clear parameters that they adhered to.
- "Dkarmeli, posted examples of that " natural " sound and reality when we are seated in different places in a music hall but that IMHO we can't take in count because what comes in the LP grooves was recorded for microphones that was in a very different position that when we attend to a concerto. Those microphones are really near to the source and the direct sound is the one that prevail when at our seat position the reflected sound has a main influence in what we are hearing."
I used that analogy as an example of how different tables could all be right yet different at the same time. Its a matter of differing perspectives for the same reality and nothing specific to any recording or table. FYI what you hear on the finished LP is the mastering and production engineers perspective and not the microphones and their location.
- "About the Final TT I know an Agoner whom own it and I can tell you that maybe he does not agree with that: " too many gimmicks"
The principle behind the Parthenon 2025 was resonance control, they tried to do this with mixing copper and aluminum in the platter, the inverted bearing and the ridiculous ball bearing in the tonearm base and the wooden platform. Of course it was a high mass design common in Japan and was a pretty decent sounding table but compared to the Continuum which its design is also predicated on resonance control the Final is only a high school science project. And this is purely scientific fact and not anyone's subjective opinion.
- "Now, IMHO nothing in audio ( including the 927 ) is a rocket science that can't be duplicated. If, for example, I'm a TT designer ( that I'm not. ) that wants to put on the market the real ultimate TT I can asure you that I will analize every single today/vintage top TT not only to duplicate its performance but to improve over it. Maybe no one thinked that the 927 is the one to beat ( price no object. ). Could you think that in China, Japan, Korea, etc, etc can't be duplicated? I think this is not the subject."
The great stuff is a lot more than rocket science, its art of highest order and only the artist knows how to achieve what he created, you can't copy that if you're not on that level and the ones who are capable wont copy, they'll also create. Ask Mosin who's also and accomplished designer and creator, he can explain it better than I can.
-++++ " my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me. " ++++
What's strange about that? I know enough to know what I like. My most treasured cartridge is a 60s vintage SPU with a crooked cantilever that came mounted for free with a 301 that I bought off ebay for parts, imagine that. |
Dear Dkarmeli: Thank's for your wide answer explanation.
++++ " it goes way beyond measurements " ++++++
agree, with today measurements we can't explain for sure all what we percieve or discern on almost any audio item but those measurements is a reference especially when we are talking on this kind of top quality performance level.
Of course that what is important is how deep an audio item " moves " you how well wake up our emotions/feelings but from this point of view, that as you said we can't measure, MUSIC it self has a mains characteristics that's to moves you even if you are hearing trhough a Walkman.
I heard several times the 930 and other TT EMT models in systems that I know very well and other that was my first time with. I'm not impressed for it in a different way that hearing other top TTs.
++++ " my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me. " ++++
When we make that statement IMHO that means: " end of history ".
There is no single argument to that " I like it ". It lost any proposal because any one of us are unique and what you like it could not like to other persons and the other way around too.
Facts/measurements does not cares on what we like it but in what's wrong or good and that today measurements can't explain what we heard in precise way does not means that that can't do it it's only to know what to measure and where to measure. Even those the TT typical measurements are good reference.
What if the 927 S/N is a mundane 75db or the w/F only 0.1%? what could told us these measurements?, plain and simple: that what we like are colorations/distortions away to be natural and higher that what we can hear trough other TTs.
At the end the whole subject is really complex and only testings in the same audio system the 927 against other 6-7 top TTs we could have a " true light " about and only if that subjective testing were made it by non-biased persons avoiding that: " I like it ".
About the Final TT I know an Agoner whom own it and I can tell you that maybe he does not agree with that: " too many gimmicks " .
Now, IMHO nothing in audio ( including the 927 ) is a rocket science that can't be duplicated. If, for example, I'm a TT designer ( that I'm not. ) that wants to put on the market the real ultimate TT I can asure you that I will analize every single today/vintage top TT not only to duplicate its performance but to improve over it. Maybe no one thinked that the 927 is the one to beat ( price no object. ).
Could you think that in China, Japan, Korea, etc, etc can't be duplicated? I think this is not the subject.
Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?. It can't hurt if we know about.
Don't you think?
Regrads and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul,
You asked, "Dear Mosin: What could be main targets for you or people like you when are going to design an audio item?"
Dksrmeli made three points that are key, in my opinion.
"They achieved that fantastic figure with a servo controlled motor, what that means is that the speed of the platter is continuously monitored and adjusted. This constant tweaking creates certain sonic artifacts that don't occur with an inertia driven system and a non-servo motor, where the platter spins continuously and seamlessly."
" There's nothing extra here, every element serves a purpose."
So, I would suggest:
1) Do not interrupt the flow of the music by altering the speed in some artificial way.
2) Use inertia to best make the music happen in a natural way.
3) Don't add useless elements that get in the way of the music.
Of course, there are nuances to everything, but if the designer misses one of those three principles when designing a turntable, he is screwing up, in my honest opinion. |
Halcro, I got in touch with Tommy. He still likes the Victor but says parts just cannot be found. I think I will probably just stick with my Nantais Lenco. Thanks for the information, however. |
Dear Mosin: What could be main targets for you or people like you when are going to design an audio item?
for me that that audio item " does not add or lost nothing to the recorded signal ". That we can achieve it or not is another matter but the important subject is the target.
The R"R comparison sugested here IMHO does not works because what's in the LP grooves is way different from what is in the tape if for no other thing because the eq. RIAA. We have to remember the additional steps where the signal must pass before we can have on hand a LP.
All in " nature " have its own natural coloration. We can't mimic the real thing in a two channel home audio system, so at least try that at each single link in the audio system chain all those link can approach ( nearest ) that neutrality.
I care about in my system. Approaching 100% of accuracy and lowering every kind of distortions through all those system links we can be nearest to the LP grooves.
Dkarmeli, posted examples of that " natural " sound and reality when we are seated in different places in a music hall but that IMHO we can't take in count because what comes in the LP grooves was recorded for microphones that was in a very different position that when we attend to a concerto. Those microphones are really near to the source and the direct sound is the one that prevail when at our seat position the reflected sound has a main influence in what we are hearing.
I always say that the main difference between audio system is it's distortion levels ( everything the same ) and accuracy.
What are we touting here with the 927?, only subjective words not a single fact as the ones I asked to Dkarmeli. If we are saying that the 927 is the holy grail: where are those facts that could prove with out doubt is in reality the hoily grail? some people here say that the motor is something as the star? well where are the facts that can prove it against say the motor in the Rockpot Sirius 3 that has a signal to noise over 100db!!!
Subjective tests are always important but we need to have those measures on the item performance to know if what we are hearing is a real inprovement or only a full of distortions performance.
Now, if you have different targets than accuracy and neutrality then everything is different.
MS designers never had those targets and even in the SX-8000 they offered in those times two different kind of TT platters with different colorations. If a designer is looking for some kind of colorations ( named distortions. ) then he are away from neutrality/accuracy. Any one has the privilege to design or buy what he wants.
Things are that I like the accuracy/neutrality approach.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Rauliruegas, Thuchan's thread started with a question about a quality that can't be measured and his emotional reaction to the EMT 927, so yes its all subjective. You bring up a few different points and I want to break it up and answer you to the best of my ability.
1- What we have here with the 927, American Sound and others isn't something that you can capture, put in a bottle and sell, it goes way beyond measurements. This is a musical interment designed and fabricated by someone who was an artist and an engineer. What is it makes a Stradivari or a Guarneri so special. If you see theses instruments up close, there's nothing special looking about them. They're dull and utilitarian yet they have a magic that no one's been able to explain, measure or reproduce. You can hear it and you'll feel inside you, its there and its real but how do you qualify or measure it if not subjectively? This is exactly what you have with a 927. The EMT 930 is a fantastic turntable and a near exact smaller copy of the 927 but it doesn't share that special quality that we're trying to define with words here. This isn't BS or illusionary its there and its beyond the norm.
2- Measurements are important but in this and they play a part for sure but they can't explain things. A HT subwoofer might measure down to 16hz or lower but is it the same 16hz that you get from a great pipe organ? They'll measure the same but subjectively different!
You mention the SP10MK3, wonderful table, very good sound specially with the heavy obsidian. It measures great too but at the end of the day it lacked that special something that makes the others great. Mosin briefly discussed EMT's motor and I'm sure that its part of the overall recipe as is SP10's motor. That speed stability of 0.0001% you is achieved by its motor, which is part of why I don't care much for the SP10. They achieved that fantastic figure with a servo controlled motor, what that means is that the speed of the platter is continuously monitored and adjusted. This constant tweaking creates certain sonic artifacts that don't occur with an inertia driven system and a non-servo motor, where the platter spins continuously and seamlessly. Granted the SP10 was one of the best of its kind with less noticeable artifacts than the ordinary servo controlled motors but they're still there. So this fantastic measurement which on the one hand tells a story of greatness also creates some of the major shortcomings of the table. My point here is that the measurements serve a purpose but at the end of the day my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me.
3- "Engeneering must be reflected on accuracy characteristics against what is in the market, especially when we are saying that the 927 is the " holly grail ". Maybe you can put some " light " about."
The quality engineering is all there and that's only part of the story. The character at work here is extremely rare you can't just quantify it and measure it when there no comps. The best I can do is to invite you for a listen.
4- "Natural from your point of view and your examples posted is more a subjective parameter that means it's not neutral but only diferent with different colorations/distortions."
No, I never said anything about colorations and distortions, Natural means just that. Its a sense of realism portrayed these tables. As a matter of fact its exactly the opposite. There's no overriding tonal character here, every recording and performance sounds distinctly different. The only constant is reality. Real person, real instrument, real performance. I don't hear additions or omissions of character but that's always subjective too. We have no way of knowing what is in those grooves, only what I hear sounds and FEELS real and its different from disc to disc.
5-" I never had the opportunity to heard the 170 kg. American Sound TT that's a different kind of design including its drive mechanism but I heard the Final Paruthenomn( 140 kg. ) that was an assualt to the state of the art on TT."
The Parthenon was an assault but didn't get all the way there, too many gimmicks. Its not only mass here, The American Sound Table is a minimalist design, a purists dream. There's nothing extra here, every element serves a purpose. Its brutally simple and I think that's why i think it sounds the way it does. |
|
Raul,
"I know that you know exactly what I'm refering when I speak of neutrality on TTs."
I did not understand, and I did not mean to offend. It is just that I find the term to be misleading for the reasons that Thuchan explained so eloquently in the post above this one, assuming the word "bullshit" fits into ones definition of eloquent. Being the forward thinker that I am, I'll accept it. LOL |
Mosin,
I agree with you on the usage of the term neutral. This seems to be to most often abused expression in High End. People were educated going for a neutral (= no influences of any part of the TT in comparison to the original recording) reproduction. The term itself is a contradiction. But in man's history everyone was looking for the stone of wisdom and some church bishops developed rules and everyone followed. Followers have an easy job just repeating this formula all the time giving themselves a kind of wisdom.
Of course we know that the world is colorful and that even the quality of master tape recordings depends on the engineer's carefully designed set up as well as the capabilities of the musicians and the room. Whoever has visited different recording studios knows that the term neutral is complete bullshit. I understand that people are always on the road asking for traffic signs, guide lines and reglementation - also on audio.
Nevertheless one may argue if we cannot set up a standard in recording we need to agree on a standard in reproduction and this one we may call neutral.Following this reaching the highest standard in reproduction is a 1:1 copy delivered by the turntable. All small deviations caused by the drive, tonearm, cartridge etc. are not allowed. What you need to do is owning the master tape or at least a 1st copy tape and compare it with the turntable's result. I sometimes do it with my Reel to Reels just to get an idea of the turntables signature which all have!
Doing this I have found out that neutrality is a nice theoretical formula. People hunting for this might believe they are on the right track but the reality shows a different picture. Usually the ones being happy with the sound at home are those who know about the signature of their reproducing machines and do like this. It seems to me that more often unhappy people are going on the neverending quest for something neutral - my god there must be a unit providing this and who is not seeking a neutral reproduction cannot be a musical expert at all |
Halcro, is TopClass Audio in Hong Kong? |
Tonywinsc, there is an easy way to understand neutrality without unicorns.
Make your own recordings and commit them to LP. The process of doing so will result in a recording of which you have a complete understanding and memory. When you hear it played back you will instantly know the limitations of the playback system and will be able to gravitate to those that impose less limitation.
IME, transducers and electronics arrived at a point long ago such that they can fool the most jaundiced audiophile (seen it happen) but the media (tape, LP, digital) has a long way to go (although lathe cuts played back on a good system are the best thing out there by a long shot).
Hmm. Maybe I am talking more about 'reference' here than I am 'neutral'... |
Hi Tbg,
I love the Victor also :-)
Extremely hard to find these days.....in good working order?
It took me two years to find mine....and I kissed a few frogs before I found the Princess.
If you contact Tommy at TopClass Audio and ask him to find one........at least you know it will be working. Tommy also has the TT-101 as his personal turntable so he knows what to look for.
Good luck..... |
Dear Dkarmely: There is no doubt that you are a passionate music lover an audiophile and a in deep admirer of the 927 and so deep that maybe you a are leaving some importants facts or at least not mentioned yet on the 927 quality performance.
I have no doubt either that at engeneering level the 927 is a " tour de force " and I would like to know how that so high level of engeneering is reflected against some facts/specs/measures that speaks about one of the main design TT targets named accuracy. I think that first than all when we are talking at this so high level of designs we have the right to know how accurate is the item.
So, how it compares on signal to noise ratio for example against the Exclusive 3a that measures 95db? or against the Yamaha GT 2000 with a wow and flutter of 0.0025%? or the Technics SP10MK3 speed stability of 0.0001%?
Engeneering must be reflected on accuracy characteristics against what is in the market, especially when we are saying that the 927 is the " holly grail ". Maybe you can put some " light " about.
Now, I agree with Tonywynsc that neutrality could be the " perfection " that can't be achieved but ( again ) when we are touting so high the 927 is reasonable to ask for that characteristic that as Peterayer said is plain and simple: " don't add or lost nothing to the recorded signal ".
Natural from your point of view and your examples posted is more a subjective parameter that means it's not neutral but only diferent with different colorations/distortions.
I never had the opportunity to heard the 170 kg. American Sound TT that's a different kind of design including its drive mechanism but I heard the Final Paruthenomn( 140 kg. ) that was an assualt to the state of the art on TT.
Btw, Mosin I think that is so elusive the neutrality target that you really can't find out that " boring " you said. But that's not the point, what you said seems to me only : how to find out a mistake on what I posted. I know that you know exactly what I'm refering when I speak of neutrality on TTs.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Halcro, I love your Victor. I have sought one for years. |
I see how this works now Everyone-last replies on 8-113, this is how they should have shown up.
1st response, twice by mistake-Thuchan
Tbg- the one after on manufacturing
Petarayer - 3rd one is reply to your comment on neutrality
Mosin - the last reply on 8-15-13 is for you |
Finding neutrality is like finding the mythical Unicorn. I mean it is more an abstract concept than something real. For example, just listening to live music and moving around the room, concert hall or even outside venue the sound changes. Suppose you could get your favorite singer to stand in your listening room and belt out a tune. It isn't going to be the same thing as the record because the artist's studio sound is completely different from your room. Afterall, our hifi's are supposed to recreate the ambience of the recording. So now suppose you get to stand in the studio while your favorite singer performs. The recording engineer is in an isolated chamber hearing the performance through some studio monitors. (That's how I perceive it; but I have never been to a studio). How much comparison does the recording engineer compare the live voice to his mix down? What if they adjust timber of the singers voice a bit. So at best, neutrality is a comparison between systems or components and becomes a subjective judgment like everything else. |
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Mosin, How about defining a "neutral" component as one which has "no discernable character of its own". In other words, one that does not add or subtract a sonic signature to the music.
This may be impossible to achieve, but I do think it is a reasonable goal. One way I would describe a turntable that is too fast or two slow is that it is not "neutral". Such a turntable would impart a color on everything it plays. Some would probably say the same about particular drive types and certain build materials.
Now, if one likes having three platter options in order to alter the sound to his/her personal liking, that is fine. But for those who want to hear what is in the grooves without any alteration, it does not seem to be the best approach.
I think neutrality is a worthwhile goal for a designer. Not the only goal perhaps, but one which will meet a demand in the market. And because it is so difficult to achieve, I don't think there is any chance of everything sounding the same. |
Mosin,
Jean did a brilliant project when restoring the double deck. In case of the motor it is an over dimesioned design of fully industrial production at a specialized German motor producer. You see similar "guys" in the Studer C37, very heavy and very stable, these units will survive us! When the 927 motor is running and you are going close by with you ear you may hear a typical sound. |
I came across that thread a little while ago, the energy and the camaraderie there moved me and brought me right here to participate in this thread after years of avoiding audiophile forums like the plague. It was a great feat that he pulled off restoring those tables but I wonder why he really got in the end. This wasn't a straight forward restoration job, so much had to be remanufactured and they could be all over the place with it. The best they could do was follow some of Mr. Franz's footsteps but they don't know his heart and mind, the 927 is way beyond straight forward engineering and the sum of its parts, its ART!
Even if there was a theoretical market for a company to start reproducing the 927, without the creator it will never be right. Take 927 vs 930, on paper outside of scale are almost identical but sonically they're worlds apart. One is a creation and the holy grail of record players while the other is only a great piece of engineering. As an accomplished designer you know exactly what I'm going on about here. |
A correction.
I misspoke when I said the 927's motor was made in-house. Rather, it was EMT designed, and built from scratch by a vendor. Still, it is an incredible piece of work. |
Dkarmeli,
I agree on all counts.
By the way, The motor for the EMT 927 was made in-house. A look at it will quickly reveal why it has never been copied. It would be pretty much cost prohibitive these days, not to mention that no turntable manufacturer that I am aware of has the in-house setup to actually do it. However, the Continuum has a motor that was especially built for it by a company in California. I suppose that company could do it, but would a sufficient market exist?
Here is link to a 41 page forum thread about the 927 where one can see the motor, as well as the other parts...
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=7793.0
Raul,
I have never met anyone who can define neutral, so Dkarmeli's "natural" term is one I find far more appropriate. "Neutral" is probably the very last term that should be used anywhere around the audio hobby! If we knew what it is, everything would sound the same, and that would be so boring. ;) |
We're talking about nuances and perspectives in musicality here, much easier to demonstrate than write about. In the purest sense I would say that the American Sound is the most neutral and Natural. Yes a live concert is the ultimate experience and you'd be surprised how much of that Real experience exists in good recordings and tts like the 927 will bring it to you.
Differences between these tts isn't a matter of coloration but perspective. It's the same as sitting in different locations in a concert hall or club. Your insight and emotional experience will change accordingly. We're not the same and we will relate differently to the same experience. You'll notice that regular concert goers have their favorite seats and will change them at times depending on performance or mood. Try it some time, go to a concert hall visit the same performance, start in the orchestra half way center hall and then move to a side balcony box close to the front and change again to a center balcony box in the same or other floor. You'll have a distinctly different sound and musical experience in each location. Even moving seats in the same box from front to rear changes things. Is any location more neutral or Real? They're all Real just different but you might prefer one location best and that's how I see these tables, different versions of the Real. Airforce One allows further tweaking of your favorite seat. When I lived in NY I used to go to Carnegie Hall on a regular basis, 4 to 6 times a month during the season and I had my favorite seats. My preferred seat was in the orchestra, center hall about 2/3rds from the front. The sound was almost always, sweet and full bodied, glorious like the EMT 927 if you want. My other regular seat was 1st floor balcony, 2nd box stage right and one of the two front seats. The sound was somewhat dry and detailed easy to focus and hear the individual instruments, more Micro Seikish if you want. Same Real but different perspectives. The American Sound somehow gives you both and supposedly with the Airforce you can get one or the other perspective by changing platters. I hope this will help clarify some of the confusing.
david |
Dkarmeli, I'm curious about your analogy regarding the face to face conversation and how it is better in every way than the same conversation over Skype, telephone etc. I agree with this. But you completely lose me when you then write that these rare and favorite turntables of yours, like the EMT 927 and American Sound, offer this kind of "Natural/Real experience". If those turntables in presumably equal quality systems, offer a kind of life-like "Natural/Real experience", then how would you describe an actual live orchestral performance? Surely a live concert is more analogous to the face to face conversation than is any audio system.
I agree with Raul on the issue of neutrality. I prefer a component, especially one like a turntable, to be as neutral (tonally) as possible. I don't want it to impart a signature to the sound.
You write that each of your top turntables sounds "distinctly different" and that the AirForce One can be made to sound different depending on the three different platter materials. Presuming this is the case, which one of your many excellent turntables sounds most "Natural/Real" in your view? And if there is one, than it must follow that the others sound less "Natural/Real". |
And they don't have manufacturing capabilities to produce something like the 927 or the 930. Manufacturing at that level is a huge undertaking and given today's costs it would be price prohibitive for a minuscule audiophile market. |
Unless you really want one there's no reason for you to get it, between your 927 and 8000 you're fully covered. As a dealer I have to get one. The time I spent with it at CES convinced me of its exceptional qualities but I can't draw final conclusions until I have it sitting in my room with its various platters. Their new pump system is superior to the 8000's and will have sonic benefits, how much is to be seen. My reference arm is also the 3012, I even cut my 927 to fit one.
There's nothing cheap or plastic about this table, it has a gorgeous build and IMO a very attractive design. Yes it's not the utilitarian beauty of the others but its still very attractive. My only gripe is that you're limited to two arms and only one long one. It's disappointing at this level. Will keep you posted with more when it arrives. |
Unless you really want one there's no reason for you to get it, between your 927 and 8000 you're fully covered. As a dealer I have to get one. The time I spent with it at CES convinced me of its exceptional qualities but I can't draw final conclusions until I have it sitting in my room with its various platters. Their new pump system is superior to the 8000's and will have sonic benefits, how much is to be seen. My reference arm is also the 3012, I even cut my 927 to fit one.
There's nothing cheap or plastic about this table, it has a gorgeous build and IMO a very attractive design. Yes it's not the utilitarian beauty of the others but its still very attractive. My only gripe is that you're limited to two arms and only one long one. It's disappointing at this level. Will keep you posted with more when it arrives. |
Dkarmeli, EMT still exists; why don't they make a new model? I have had 300B amps and sought and bought even 1950's WEs. There is no question that they are better than the 1960s or '70s WE 300Bs. The '88s are junk. Why is this so? I think because the quality makers were still around and QC was still rigorous.
I doubt if any of these are responsible for the EMT 927. |
Dkarmeli,
When Jonathan informed us on Agon some time ago about the arriving Airforce One I was pretty curious comparing it with my MS SX 8000 II. I saw the New Micro Seiki design at Highend 2012 in Munich the first time and got dissapointed about some functions and the plastique appearance on some parts. In the meantime they have improved it. I had the Graham Phantom which I had mounted also on my Micro. It is a very good arm, nevertheless I prefer 12" or 14" designs with SME headshells.
Some of my friends asked me if I would go for an Airforce? I told them "why should I invest 100 bucks when I can get the same quality and sound for 30 bucks"? - the price you may get a very good MK II in 8/10 condition with matching air base and parts etc. |
I'm guilty of not explaining further. The tt is a playback system made up of many different components including setup and dependent on another reproduction chain that includes your listening space; so by definition neutrality is relative and imo not the right adjective. But if you insist, In this relative world, great tts like the EMT 927, Thorens Reference, Micro Seiki 8000, Goldmund Reference, The American Sound and now Airforce One are as neutral as they come. If set up properly in a playback chain of equal quality, sans audiophile tweaks!, you'll never notice any overt characteristics from them. There is no so called Vinyl Sound. No big fat bloated bass, thick midrange, overly sweet highs, or any audiophile attributes that are often the focus here. Basically nothing that stands out and creates a distraction from the music. Instead what you get is the music with its life and soul, energy, majesty or horror as the case may be. Its extremely natural and real, no vinyl or digital sound, no sound, nothing discernible missing or added. Natural or Real is what I would call these wonderful machines instead of neutral.
This Natural is the hardest thing to explain if you've never heard it and even more difficult to achieve. We all know it but we're not always aware of it and tend to ignore it when it comes to things audio. The best way that I used to explain it to my clients was to imagine being across from someone and have a face to face conversation. It could be friendly, passionate with a loved one, adversarial or even boring. Now imagine the same conversation over the phone, Skype, PA system, whatever. The content is the same and many of the emotions are there but the experience is totally totally different. Today we can look at someone through the monitor, feel and express love for them but its just not the same as looking them int the eye while saying the same words or better still, being able to put your arms around that person or their neck as the case may be. Under the right circumstances this Natural/Real experience is what the EMT 927 or the American Sound will give you, more so than any other piece of equipment that I heard and there lies the magic for me. Look somewhere else if your definition of audio nirvana is based on the latest TAS/Stereophile issue. |
You're right it's not always about money. Products like 927 are personal expressions of self and ego, caring about the audience as much as the object itself. Of course a high degree of competence and knowledge is a prerequisite. The 930 was the money side of things!
PS. You still owe me a visit to your lair Johnathan! |
Tbg, digital killed many turntable manufacturers almost overnight. The 927 wasn't a dj table, it was originally designed for mastering purposes. It was a very expensive no compromise work horse impossible to copy without in depth knowledge of the product and a production facility capable of manufacturing all the various parts that make a 927, just to get the motor is an impossible task today. It doesn't take much to turn a piece of acrylic on a lathe and stick a cheap servo motor on side and connect it together with a rubber band, that's all most record players are today! |
Hi Peterayer,
We had the Airforce One in our room at CES. The electronics were all Lamm which I'm intimately familiar with. The cartridges were a ZYX and an Ortofon which I use daily. The only unknown were the Graham arms.
The Airforce One is really a Micro Seiki SX-8000 mk2 at heart with some upgrades? or refinements? or whatever you want to call it. Sonically it was pretty close to the 8000 mk2 but it was still under show conditions and things aren't optimized as should be, so further listening is needed with known tonearms. Airforce One has 3 platter options that affect the sound giving the user further options to tune it to his/her liking. Over all its the best sounding table that I know of made today. Of course nothing is perfect and there are some things about its design that I didn't like and don't understand why the designers made these choices. I'll have more to say when I get mine. |
Tbg, if you have a close look at the technology, the design and the build quality of the EMT 927 you will discover quickly why it is not made anymore or why no one copied it. I recommend looking at one or even better listening to one if you have the chance.
Dkarmeli agree with your assessment - of course :-) |
There must be some reason why it is not made anymore and why no one has exactly copied it. I have never heard one and only ever seen one, but it just looks too much like a DJ turntable, which of course it was. |
You are referring to the 927 used with the 139st phono stage?
Thuchan runs his r80 without the Emt phono so his valid judgement(s) is (are) about the deck vs other decks playing with his various step up and phono combos.
The Emt 139 lacks high end extension and bottom end also vs top end phonos of today, despite this the 139 it is my favourite.
But....to see how deep and high and just how the deck holds these all together another phono is needed. Then you unveil the full potential. This is why I have fitted another arm board to the back of my Emt 927 to taste those potentials.
All fun... |
Dear Mosin: ++++ " I suspect that in the end, whether one likes how EMT 927 sounds, or doesn't, depends solely on its maker's idea of what constitutes the proper signature .... " ++++
IMHO if a TT ( including the 927. ) has its " sounds/signature " then is away of netrality, a TT main tragets must be accuracy and neutrality.
No one here speaks about neutrality but how great it " sounds " against other TTs, makes no sense to me.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
"Climbing the Everest is not about money nor is it a BtoB market...it is about personal achievement or ego......"
Perhaps, but I am convinced that the EMT is about personal achievement, not ego.
Mr. Franz understood one simple truth; that the job of the platter is not to control the resulting sound, but to provide the turntable's signature. That signature is merely his idea of what the resulting tone should be; it does not define the physics of the machine.
Unfortunately, that simple truth is lost on the vast majority of turntables in the world. Their designers often laud the perceived benefits of flywheel effect at the platter, but I am convinced that Mr. Franz abhorred the notion. I know I do, although I didn't for many years.
It's a lot more than that, though. His machine works as it does because he had a grasp of what its task really was. He was able to see it as an entity, rather than a collection of parts, and he knew what roles to assign each of part, so that it would be in perfect unison with all the others. That is what makes it an entity, and the end result follows logic without any gaps. There are no weak links. Every single aspect of its design can be defended. One cannot say that about most turntables, not even the purported "good" ones.
I suspect that in the end, whether one likes how EMT 927 sounds, or doesn't, depends solely on its maker's idea of what constitutes the proper signature because all the other bases seem to be covered. |
Dkarmeli,
Have you heard the new TechDas Airforce One? If so, how would you say it compares to your favorite tabels? |
Perhaps the answer lies with the man behind the machine, Mr. Franz. The 927 is his ultimate expression of the art of music playback. It's no different than Enzo Ferrari's marvelous engines or Ferdinand Porsche's genius. These men gave their creations souls. There are many good engineers but very few Creators who belong to this exalted group and Mr. Franz was one of them.
Thuchan, I agree with your praise of the EMT 927 and that there's nothing out there like it. I love mine, perhaps more than any other table I own except one. EMT isn't the only magical player there are a few others with different but equally exceptional qualities. I found that all these machines bring you closer than anything else to the heart of the performance and the voice of the music. In my collection I have all the top Micros, the Thorens Reference a Goldmund Reference and the rarest beauty, The American Sound. Each and every one of these faboulous tts has the creator's soul yet they sound distinctly different. Its like viewing life from different perspectives. Sorry, I know that my commentary is subjective and emotion based but I don't know of a different way of explaining how these players communicate.
As a dealer I come across many of the new high priced players and aside from a few imo none of them are created. Some are well engineered and many are over priced pieces of junk, either way they're boring and lack the magic! |
I just got in touch with another wonderful idler, the Pierre Clement. Does anyone have experiences with this quite rare table. Would be fun running it again the EMT 927. |
Dear Peterayer: It's normal that the manufacturer advise be that you go for a bigger speaker in his catalogue.
Still today IMHO when we are talking of home stereo system subwoofers perhaps no one knows more than Velodyne. JL are good but not good enough.
In the other side, for integrate a pair of subs in a system the first issue is to know exactly what we are looking for and from my point of view the main targets are not bass impact or extension. We have to have very clear which kind of installation we will do where crossover frequency on the subs and main speakers is critical and it's from here where we can start to " build " the subs integration followed by the room subs position.
Yes, it is not an easy task but if you or the person that help you have the knowledge level then there is no doubt that you can achieve success about.
++++ " seamless integration " ++++, again with the right knowledge level that is IMHO always attainabel.
I took almost a year with my system to achieve that: " seamless integration " .
First decision you have to take on subs is to choose the right subwoofer and IMHO JL was a " wrong " alternative. It's not my opinion but there are facts about, example: for the model 212 JL gives an spec of 6.5% value for its THD at 50hz, this means that at lower frequencies as 20 hz that number can goes over 10% easily.
The Velodyne THD at 20 hz is only 0.5% and there are several reasons for that and one is the Velodyne system acelerator/servo that sense/measure over 15 K times each second the woofer movements to impede not only overload but to mantain inside that 0.5% THD. No not all subs are the same, but the important issue is the knowledge level we have.
If you are trying to add subs with high distortions you can't have success.
Believe or not IMHO the integration of active subwoofers in system with passive speakers is a " new science ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul, I should add that Alon Wolf of Magico strongly discourages the use of subwoofers. He told me that if I wanted more bass extension, I should just buy a larger Magico speaker instead. These speakers are known for their lack of distortion.
I have heard two of my friends' systems with subwoofers. They each have larger full range speakers, and in their cases, sub woofers did smooth out bass/room issues and increased overall clarity. |
Raul, Thank you for the suggestion. I did own two JL Audio F110 sub woofers which I bought to integrate with my Magico Mini 2s for exactly the reason you mention. Unfortunately, I tried very hard to have a seamless integration and it never quite sounded right.
I then had a guy with lots of experience try to integrate the two and though some things improved like bass impact and extension, overall clarity, tone and presence did not and we both ultimately preferred the system without the subs. I think the issue is my room with that fireplace between the two speakers.
Regarding distortion in these Magicos, I'm quite pleased with how they sound. I'm sure that in purpose built, dedicated room it could be better. |
Dear Peterayer: I have no doubt that what you experienced in Viena listening at near source field live music was the most enlighted, learning and full of enjoyment of any other music experiece you had on your life.
I assumed because I had that kind of full experiences too in several ocasions. This is IMHO the best music reference we can have and a must to live it.
So, you understand very clear what means: low distortions and certainly what's right or wrong and that's al about.
Btw, looking to your system and even that your system place/room is not a big one but due that your magico's 7 inch. drivers are handling a wide frequency spectrum I can tell you that you could be nearer to teh recording and nearer to what you experienced in Viena adding to your system two active subwoofers in full stereo fashion. You will lower distortions as you never imagined. An opinion only.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Ecir38, I did at the High End Munich show 2012 in connection with the Silbatone Western Electric show. It was very impressing! Maybe a somehow underrated table. |
Raul, though this is a thread about the EMT 927, I will indulge you.
You asked why no one posted how he improved his system or something about listening to live music. I will describe a few of the things that I have done:
About six years ago I wanted to decrease distortion and increase transparency. So I hired an electrician. I bought 45' of JPS Labs IN-Wall AC cable and three high quality Furutech IEC connectors. I gave them to the electrician. He then replaced my three wall AC outlets and ran three lengths of 15' JPS cable from three dedicated 20 amp circuits on my panel through the floor and terminated the other ends in the Furutech connectors. They go to each of my mono amps and to a conditioner to my front end electronics and turntable. There are no outlet connections in my system. The noise floor dropped and I decreased distortion.
Another example is that I was unsatisfied with the isolation supports for my amps and turntable. I ordered three Vibraplanes, preloaded them with custom cut steel ballast plates and properly isolated those components. The result was dramatic. In particular, the bass frequencies were cleaned up and this increased overall clarity, tonal accuracy and balance, and extension and impact. This decreased distortion still further.
I recently made a trip to Vienna to see the State Opera. My host was the Director of Archives for the Wiener Staatsoper. He told me that he wanted me to experience the energy created by the instruments as heard and felt close to the source of sound. I attended three closed rehearsals and sat six feet away from the first violinist and conductor. Four hours a day, for three days. Then, for each of four nights I sat in the Director's box and heard four different operas. You can image the quality of the sound and music in that great hall. And the difference in sound from the orchestra pit to the second balcony, first row center.
When I returned home and listened to my system with the memory of that energy and sound in my brain, I realized that I needed to adjust my cartridge loading, phono gain and volume settings. I also confirmed cartridge alignment. Based on what I heard live in Vienna, I changed my settings which lowered distortion and helped my system sound more like the real instruments.
All of this was in service to what you call "right" or "wrong" with live music in a great hall as the reference. My regular BSO seats are seventh row center.
I hope this is an example of what you mean by someone attempting to lower distortion and listening to actual live music as a reference to improve his system.
The funny thing is, now I "like" my system more. |
