I just bought a new CD player and was underwhelmed with it compared to my cheaper, lower quality CD player. That’s when it hit me that my cheaper CD player is using an upgraded power cable. When I put an upgraded power cable on my new CD player, the sound was instantly transformed: the treble was tamed, the music was more dynamic and lifelike, and overall more musical.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
Even though this thread has veered wildly from the original question, the evidence for the validity of using high-quality AC cords is overwhelming. That ARC's most longstanding employee, who listens to every piece that leaves the factory--including repairs-- uses high-end AC cords to aid in product development should impress both the most hardened doubter and the seeker of advice and guidance. As a student of the hobby, I visit these forums to learn from others, and that's all any novice needs to do to advance their system from good to great.
In addition to ARC (a very well respected company BTW), Audio Alchemy's also states this in their manual;
You will get the best and most reliable performance from the DDP-1 by using high quality audio cables. We recommend against using the "freebie" cables included with blue-ray players, CD players, etc.
I don't recall if they included cables with their equipment or not. If they did, it's still in plastic in the box it was shipped in.
Thank you, Kaarmstrong, for your real-world findings. Others would do well to listen and learn from you. That’s a good way to advance one's system development.
Let me share my experience. As you can see I do not spend a lot of time posting on forums, for I spend most of my time working. I have an engineering background in education and last 18 years have spend most of my time developing technology to enable the next generation circuits for smaller and more efficient semiconductors. If you have owned an Apple product or an Xbox or another device which uses semiconductors you likely have owned a product which I had some part in designing. This includes many patents. The reason I tell you this is because I want you to understand my background started with known mathematical equations but when you get into the real world those equations although not wrong fail to capture all the variables which drastically effect the out come. When I completed my education I would of told you power cables would not matter if they satified the basic requirement for impedance, etc. My new college graduates with Masters and PHD's typically make these same assumptions and quickly learn that imperical data is king. When you are dealing with the tolerances required to be successful in semiconductor design we can not assume or theorize an outcome with known electrical equations and material properties. It requires experimentation because nothing is perfect plus we as humans have not discovered all things. We are still learning. We also understand each human can have an inherent bias so we have training to understand these bias's and work so they do not influence our decisions. That is my work, my passion is audio. Because of my background I use to test everything and that included cables when it comes to audio. Mostly of my testing involved digital and interconnect cables but also power cables. Once I was familiar with the sonic characteristics of cables, we would perform blind testing and not only would I hear a difference but I could tell which cable was being used. This was repeatable many times over. Over the years of testing, my blind testing matched my non blind testing. I no longer question if the changes I hear in my system are real. I do not claim to know why there is a difference in all cases. I am sorry if you do not know cables can sound/feel different even if they measure the same. I trust my ears.
I’m not at all embarrassed, nor likely to become embarrassed by my posts. Simply put, you posted a quote from ARC and grossly distorted it to apply to this conversation, and I called you on it.
While it may be true true that PC can affect the sound of an ARC amplifier, your quote from that particular manual sure as heck doesn’t show that ARC feels that way. You know it, I know it. That’s enough on that matter I think.
Much more interesting to me now, having seen on this thread, is just how many people are convinced that (essentially) they own equipment with inadequate power supplies.
It is nearly (nearly) inconceivable that a decently routed PC could pick up enough noise that it affects the sound. But it’s easily conceivable that noise is on the AC lines up to the receptacle. (But again is a PC really capable of cleaning it up?..,, and yes, I know, I keep on using that word, and you don’t think I know what it means)
I’m going to try and find a company that believes strongly enough in their power conditioners or rectifiers that they offer money back guarantee. I’m sure some naysayer would blame my Lyngdorf processor or Bryston SST or B&W speakers or interconnects or speaker cables of inadequate resolution if I can’t hear the difference, but I’m willing to give it a shot.
It it would be interesting if any of the people who are hearing improvements in PC swapping have ever found equipment with adequate power supplies from the factory that simply can’t be improved on with a different pc. It can’t all be c__p out there, can it?
I understood his last two sentences to mean that if one is skeptical, not to be antagonistic. Which I abided by. Now, if the OP meant that ANY suggestion of skepticism was by nature "antagonistic" then that I think is unwarranted. There’s no reason differing views between mature adults should be rejected as "antagonistic" simply because "it’s different from what I believe, and I don’t want to have to deal with alternative viewpoints."
However, IF the OP had written something clear such as "This thread is based on the assumption after market AC cables can alter the sound of a system: if you are skeptical about this, please do not bring that to this thread, as I wish to discuss purely the ideas of how AC cables could alter the sound of a system. Thank you."
If it had been clear like that, I would completely understand and wouldn’t have entered this thread with another skeptical view of "why power cables affect sound." Anyway....having made my case I'll refrain from posting more in this thread. (Unless possibly baited to, or unless someone is actually interested in my responding).
So you fall in to the "If I just repeat the same criticism without any more evidence, and without addressing the other person’s points, that will do."
That doesn’t exactly elevate the conversation here.
In fact it seems rather...antagonistic.
Look at my first post - it’s not antagonistic, it’s civil and simply presents another alternative, including that I am not claiming to be "right" and others are "wrong." I’ve kept that stance through the whole thread, even in fhe face of actual antagonism.
I’ve simply expressed my reasons for not jumping on the aftermarket AC cable bandwagon - including how my own experience with AC cables helped form my stance. Where the AC cable supporters declare from their own experience "AC CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE!" I have been more cautious, saying I WASN’T going to claim from my own negative experience that AC cables don’t make a difference.
If you refuse to notice this imbalance in how views have been presented, and can only interpret the presentation of the alternative viewpoint as "antagonism" that’s frankly where the problem lies.
There are some forms of doing a blind test, even without an ABX box, that seem to me viable. E.g. if you could get two units of the same CD player or DAC, use a stock cable on one, after market cable on the other, run them through a pre-amp that can switch between them, and set up a blind test. There's a post, or blog out there somewhere that I read, where a guy in pro audio did just that, as he ended up being sent two of the same DAC, which made it easy to do the after market AC cable test. Results were negative for detecting sonic differences.
(I did something similar with CD players and DACs, though one DAC had a volume control which made it particularly good for matching levels. I easily identified differences between them in those blind tests btw...which goes to show it’s not the case that all blind tests reult in negative findings or "blind testing by nature erases audible differences" or whatever).
I’d do it myself if I had two identical DACs. I actually have the Benchmark 1 and the Benchmark 2 DAC. But as they are not strictly identical units, the claim could always be made that this presents another variable.
I haven’t actually set up the Benchmark 2 DAC yet, so maybe if I can pull off a blind test between it and the DAC 1 that might be interesting. (And if I can’t detect a sonic difference between them, in principle that would be a baseline for an AC cable test...hmm.....)
mrdecibel wrote: "Again, after the last post from prof and analogluvr, they are simply missing out on the fact that " after market power cables " make a difference, and generally, improvements. So, while I am enjoying these improvements in sq in my listening, they are still battling it. "
In other words, he confidently declares he gets to enjoy the audible benefits of AC cables while poor sods like us "battle" the idea. As if there are no POSSIBLE downsides to his claim.
Therefore I presented an alternative POSSIBILITY - note how I used that word? It’s not a declaration of fact, only another POSSIBILITY that others may consider - that of paying much more money for products that don’t in fact do what they claim to do - even if mrdecibel refuses to ever question his position.
I’ve been presenting a reasoned defense for skepticism about AC cable claims, with civility, and constantly keeping those claims modest and saying "I could be wrong, I’m not claiming anyone here is wrong, I’m not claiming to know people aren’t hearing sonic differences, I’m open to the idea AC cables alter sound." Again...that is FAR more open minded and conciliatory to the other side than the attitude the pro-cable folks have shown me here.
Whereas folks like nonoise reply with insults like "you have issues" and mrdecibel "I have no reason to respond to your ignorance or foolishness."
Why don’t you take their tone to task, I wonder?
Why do the Cable supporters get the free pass with snark and insult, but presenting an alternative view is "derailing" a thread with "antagonism?"
I keep trying to shine at least some light on the weird bias that goes on here, where cable-lovers seem like they process any skepticism as either dogmatism or antagonistic, and THEY are the ones who typically respond with blatantly insulting tones.
Kosst, "
Why not spend $1500 on a power cord that would do the same job as a $5 length of 14g lamp cord and $10 worth of caps, resistors, and inductors! If your goal is to clean up the power supply, THEN FIX THE POWER SUPPLY. This isn't rocket surgery!" A couple things here: 1. There is no such thing as "rocket surgery" 2. You don't need to spend $1500 to get an improvement from a power cord 3. The power supply of an amplifier is not the end all to sound quality.
prof, You missed a couple of your recent quotes in your post above, so I'll add them: "
Or, an alternative possibility is that you have wasted money on a product whose performance was oversold to you" "And we are getting just as great results without wasting money"
That stated, "wasted money" is a rather harsh statement for those of us who do hear an improvement in sound quality from power cords even though you don't, especially since the OP specifically asked that "
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism"
@prof I just love your posts. Everything I want to say you said it better. I hold exactly same position as yours. First, I don't believe an expensive AC cable makes a difference. Second, I welcome ideas that are scientifically sound explaining how AC cable can make an audible difference. Haven't seen anything solid on the latter.
What you or others believe, particularly in high end audio, makes little difference to me.
But the problem is you will still come here and comment on what you think my position is. And because you "don't care" you will continually misunderstand and hence make posts imply a position I explicitly don't hold. For instance you wrote:
The fact that you claim to not hear differences, does not mean that differences do not exist,
Now, if you had "cared" for a moment what I ACTUALLY have argued, you would have noticed post after post I was explicit in not making that claim. A selection from my posts in this very thread:
Now...that ISN’T to say other explanations aren’t correct, and that the power cord did in fact alter the signal audibly in the way you perceived
.
and:
As I already stated: I am not claiming everyone here is just experiencing a bias or placebo effect.
and:
Nor do I claim from my own tests, of course, "therefore NO audible differences exist between AC cables, and every positive anecdote is due to subjective bias." That would be far too rash and unwarranted.
again:
I have been very careful to say, explicitly, that I’m not claiming from my own results "AC cables make no sonic difference" and I have NEVER claimed that nonoise or you or anyone else DID NOT hear a REAL sonic difference.
Again:
I have no problem whatsoever with accepting I may be wrong.As I stated early on, I’m open to the possibility AC cables can change the sound of an audio system.
Again:
I could be utterly in error in most of what I've written. I'm open to the idea cables, including AC cables, can make audible differences.
So, mrdecibel, if you "don't care" enough about my position to actually bother reading it, you could at least refrain from commenting on it since you are bound to misunderstand and misrepresent it.
Answer honestly: Which of us has been intellectually honest and actually done more in this thread to concede "I May Be Wrong?"
When you honestly contemplate this, reflect upon your desire to continually castigate others for being obstinate in their viewpoint.
Man, you are so ridiculously off base, I can hardly bring myself to respond. Where did you come up with an idea of people getting into trouble or being fired? I cite the ARC manual for my Reference 210 amps, mention a respected cable builder and add that a top official at ARC uses his cables to help in product development, and you decide to build an investigation that comes off as a conspiracy case! I have suffered through a lot of pomposity, tortured logic, and know-it-alls on here, but you take the cake with this one. Please--don't embarrass yourself any further.
Prof, I just made clear of some human traits I see in others. On top of that, I am not upset in the least. What you or others believe, particularly in high end audio, makes little difference to me. Besides, you seem to be clueless as to the " camps " I am speaking of, or maybe you do. Some of us hear things, and some of us do not. I do not know why that is, but it seems to be the case. Enjoy your holidays, be well, and....Enjoy ! MrD.
I have no reason to respond to your ignorance or foolishness.
Why the insults? Why can't you simply discuss matters about audio like a mature adult? (What is it about AC cables...of all things!...that makes people's emotion run so high?)
My listening, my system, my music, my experiences, my money. Why do you care ?
I don't care what you buy.
This is thread where people are giving their own views on the merits, as they see it, of high end AC cables.
Guess what? Public forums will bring people with varying opinions together. If you post something, someone may challenge it. I suggest you get used to the idea rather than complain.
You posted about CJ and AC cables; I happen to have owned CJ products for many years, so I have something to say there. Then you declared to everyone how "prof" doesn't "get it."
That's perfectly fine if you want to write that. But don't get all upset if I actually respond to claims that I "don't get it."
If your feathers are so ruffled by encountering alternative views to your own, why post in this thread, let alone monitor it? It seems to only upset you.
(And btw, I don't need you telling me to "stay in my camp." I feel quite free to end up in any camp I please. I could be utterly in error in most of what I've written. I'm open to the idea cables, including AC cables, can make audible differences. I am not in a "camp" dogmatically, as you seem to be given your posts indicate you can not imagine yourself to possibly be wrong).
Joe, i respect the part of your posting here as helpful when you relay the following:
At some point in time, and we don’t know it’s duration or if it remains so, an aftermarket PC cord was in use, and preferred by a tester at ARC. We know also that the makers of that cord have gotten him to state so in public, on their official website.
You should have left left it at that. Your inclusion trying to extrapolate that one individual’s opinion to represent ARC policy as shown by your quote in their manual is simply wrong. I’m sorry you can’t see that you twisted the ARC official words dramatically to support your (and the tester’s) opinion.
For all we know your friend got fired for presuming to speak on behalf of ARC.
On the flip side, if you had in print from the official policy or manuals from companies of these high end products, it would be appropriate to post up. Your quote of the ARC manual doesn’t support it, and I’m not surprised to see an ARC tech quoted on the maker of a cable’s website. But I also wouldn’t be surprised if that sort of thing doesn’t get employees in trouble.
I am open minded about power in the lines being dirty enough that some people with poorly designed power supplies in their equipment can hear it.
prof, I indicated to you, and others, that I have no reason to respond to your ignorance or foolishness. I am never " sold " on anything, as I seek to " buy ", as, there is a difference between the two. My listening, my system, my music, my experiences, my money. Why do you care ? Stay in your camp, and I will stay in mine. The fact that you claim to not hear differences, does not mean that differences do not exist, as I certainly do hear differences. I am not trying to prove to you anything, as I do all of this buying, trying, tweaking, and of course, ultimately, listening ( which is why I do not listen with an Aiwa mini system or a boombox ), and, it is for me, and for me alone, as there continues to be more recorded information to be heard from within my music. I will move on, as it is best. Enjoy ! MrD.
More like Poe's Never Bet The Devil Your Head. As in: I'll bet the Devil my head that you're just hearing things, or you're just trying to justify the costs. And then this old man shows up out of nowhere with a power cord.... 😈
I’m sure the improvements were obvious to everyone when you told them you had subbed in a larger gauge power cable and that it would sound much better.
So, while I am enjoying these improvements in sq in my listening, they are still battling it.
Or, an alternative possibility is that you have wasted money on a product whose performance was oversold to you.
And we are getting just as great results without wasting money.(Remember: I've tried well regarded power cables).
It is the loss of the naysayers.
The people who chase better AC cables never consider that, if they are wrong, they are throwing away time and money fretting about and buying expensive AC cables.
I know: that's a possibility you refuse to consider. ;-)
(Reminds me of the audiophile version of that old fallacy, Pascal's Wager...)
Again, after the last post from prof and analogluvr, they are simply missing out on the fact that " after market power cables " make a difference, and generally, improvements. So, while I am enjoying these improvements in sq in my listening, they are still battling it. I have no problem with it. It is the loss of the naysayers. I did mention somewhere to prof, that I changed out, via hardwire, from the cords that were on a pair of the exact CJ amps he owns, with that of a heavier gauge, and supposedly, better quality cable. Even if it was simply the gauge of the wire, the audible improvements in sq were immediately obvious, to not just myself, or even the owner of the amps, but other listeners who were at that particular get together. Enjoy ! MrD.
I think people would be further ahead to get rid of the stupid IEC and hardwire a decent gauge cord in instead of spending big bucks on some silly overpriced well marketed crap.
This thread is quite interesting and has many posts with a variety of opinion, theories, pseudo science regarding electrons, and marketing material regurgitation. Also some good advice, reflection, and reputable electrical science.
I believe cables do make some difference.
They cannot compensate for or correct most electrical utility problems - how can the composition of 6 feet of wire reconstruct perfect 120 volt 60 Hz electricity after its being distorted and affected over hundreds of miles from the generating facility, utility switchgear, local industry and transformers, neighbors with unusual electrical loads, possible poor grounding bonds in the home service panel, and the cheap 14 gauge wire and 25 cent receptacles in typical modern homes.
A power cable with good conductors and contact, sufficient wire gauge, and excellent shielding can however maintain voltage level and keep the power from being corrupted by EMI/RFI at its most vulnerable - the lowest voltage end of the line state.
It is a question of not allowing it to get any worse from the wall to the component. If you are also using a good conditioner or regenerator, then the PC from there to your component is many multiples more important as you are removing many other potential effects and keeping the AC pure is far more possible.
Good conductors of sufficient gauge, good contact surfaces, excellent shielding. That will make a difference.
and the requirements CJ needs to " get the job done "
Which would be: that their products sound great.
And somehow they've managed that over the years without adding boutique AC cables.
Note that CJ products have garnered great reviews through the many years where reviewers were simply using them with the supplied AC cables.
Most Conrad J. products have had hard-wired AC cables. They aren't going to seriously hobble their own expensive equipment by choosing the wrong AC cable. (I seem to remember an interview with one of the CJ guys saying they felt all told hard wiring the cord in was the better route to go, even though audiophiles like to play with cables, but it appears they conceded to the cable crowd in *some* of their later designs). It's your money if you want to give it to the expensive AC cable market.But, sorry, the "I'm sure I heard a difference" anecdotes fall well short of that SHOULD be able to be provided as evidence for these products, if they were really altering the signal.
For whatever reason, my post was cut short. My CJ statement was supposed to indicate that the wire CJ uses, was selected, based on purchase price, availability and the requirements CJ needs to " get the job done " , probably not on sound quality ( from Electri Cord of the NE). An analogy : Tire manufacturers to vehicle manufacturers. The tires that come equipped with new vehicles are generally not the best available, as the vehicle manufacturer is not buying the best tire available ( in most cases ), even from the same manufacturer of the supplied tire. I likely will notice a change in the tires, by the ride and handling of the vehicle. Would a 12 year old sitting in the back of the vehicle notice ? The naysayers remind me of the kid in the back seat. Ear = designed to listen and hear. Most of us can hear direction of sounds, but, deeper within the brain = dissecting and descrambling the information, with the interpretation of better ( just go with different ) sq. Michael Green stated this earlier. Power cables are not new, but the controversy seems to be growing ,and I am with him in noticing. 20 years ago it was just accepted. I believe a reason is simply pricing. All of high end audio is expensive today. Ridiculously so. Best to you all. Enjoy ! MrD.
xyobgyn, Regarding my reference from the ARC amplifier manual: Not only do they recommend using the best interconnects and speaker cables, but they also use and endorse better AC cords. From Warren Gehl, Chief Listener at ARC, as written on the Sain Line Systems site:
l use Sain Line Systems reference power cords and pure reference interconnects and consider them essential to getting the highest performance possible from our reference system and they are key tools for product development.
I have combined the quote from the ARC manual with what I know about Warren Gehl and his use of reference AC power cords in product development, no less. I have the advantage of the wholistic picture here---you do not--until now. My sources are original and are highly regarded authorities--I have argued for the legitimacy of high-purity AC cords, interconnects and wires, I have explained to you why AC power modification is necessary. I hope I have been of some service to and others who are wondering where to go in the next development of their systems.
Joe, We have some common ground..... (pun not intended)
Not trying to personally attack you so much as clarify for others what ARC actually said. Interesting about Kinki or whatever above. Wonder if other companies say likewise.
I am surprised no one else picked up on this. An interesting poll would be to see if any companies include on paper, in their user instructions, opinions that one should invest in the best possible or best matching PC to go with their amp, preamp, DAC, Turntable or whatever?
The manual that comes with the Kinki EX-M1 integrated states to get rid of the "el cheapo" power cord that comes with it and to get a better one.
it’s very dissapointing to think that they don’t know how to build a great power supply to perform that task at the levels most of us invest in our equipment.
I think they do know but they weigh the costs of building a robust power supply that a smaller percentage of users will appreciate compared to the majority who will simply be content with it. They're buying the brand and nothing more. The more discerning here will seek out better so don't despair: it's just the way things are.
Sarjan over at 6moons marveled at the overbuilt power supply on the Jay's Audio CDT, saying that it distinguishes top hifi gear from the entry level. This is not to say that ARC or other great makes are entry level, but a lot of gear built today is derived from the same group think that used to think that as long as it's built to spec and what the manual dictates, than all is well. That way of thinking has held back real innovation. Working outside the box is what's needed.
I read both your posts regarding ARC. This is exactly what you said following the ARC quote regarding speaker wires and interconnects:
”Audio Research cannot emphasize enough the use of high-quality cords and wire, and I consider their advice of the highest authority. I have always taken that as audio canon. ”
You clearly changed what ARC actually said in your sample from the manual. You changed “speaker wire and interconnects” to “high quality cords and wire” trying to spread their official comment to include power cords. I think that is a distortion anyone can see.
Your comment that follows is an interesting observation of what ARC was doing at one point in time, but CLEARLY not a public endorsement from ARC in their user manual suggesting that the end user will benefit by using a different power cord. (As you tried to imply)
I’m glad you were able to improve the sound of your system with new PC. In my mind, perhaps only mine, that puts your power conditioner or main AC line into question, but I’m afraid you might take that personally.
I don’t think I would take anyone’s word as canon, though I would respect what ARC publishes on paper in their user manual.
But please, my reading comprehension is intact. Your quote from ARC doesn’t support that ARC told users to choose their PC carefully. Not at all.
Yes, the situation is much as you say; we can bring all this expensive gear into our homes, plug it into the wall, and not always be overwhelmed by great sound. It will be good--could be made better. AC power is often noisy and the typical 15 amp house circuit cannot provide enough wattage to perform the work required by a system of any decent size. Some modifications are necessary, and these can be taken to the Nth degree. A 20-amp dedicated circuit can be added. Two can be added. Isolation transformers are used, as well as regenerators and passive conditioners. AC outlets and power cords can be added, but something has to done to address ordinary conditions if you are using extraordinary equipment that is capable of extraordinary performance. Empirically--from experience and without further evidence--these things are the best Rx.
I haven't read all 10 pages of posts but here's another example of an extreme difference between PCs. My EAR Acute CD player came with a cheap computer grade PC. I switched to a Audioquest PCs NRG 3 and 5s. The result was nearly the same, slow and murky sound, lacking in highs, tubby. Horrible. I then used a GroverHuffman.com PC cable (or a high end cable of your choice). The EAR Acute sounds now as good as the near SOTA CD players available. It competes with my $22K analog set-up. That's why I can wholeheartedly recommend the EAR CD players as bargains, but you MUST put in a high quality PC or else it's mud.
The Belden brand " connection " that comes with equipment, is generally under a purchase agreement, contracted to the manufacturer, as their wire supplier. There are around 40 other well known companies who " manufacture " electrical wire, such as Carol, Southwire and GE ( and these, along with Belden, are some of the largest producing wire companies in business today.), that supply power cables to manufacturers. Wires for appliances, auto, aircraft, medical, clock radios, etc. All of these wires do need to conform to specific electrical guidelines and UL rules, etc. So, a cable that is supplied with a CJ power amp ( CJ has been contracted with the same wire company, which is a smaller producing company, for as long as I can remember ).
It it seems you, as well as others, are basically saying that the OEM isn’t sending their units out with adequate sound conditioners or AC line cleaners to cover noisy AC power lines.
The yay-sayers are essentially using these PC to clean up the AC line noise.
This is indeed a reasonable hypothesis to explain why some people can change the sound of their equipment with a PC change.
It is virtually impossible for the OEM to test for all possible noise on an AC line. And yet, it’s very dissapointing to think that they don’t know how to build a great power supply to perform that task at the levels most of us invest in our equipment. But it does make sense in that context.
Probably makes sense then, if you buy into “OEM shipping with poor resistance to line noise”, to use the supplied PC, and get a kick-butt power conditioner.... plug everything into that.
if you’re using a great conditioner, I’m at loss to explain or understand how a decent PC can be bested, other than it’s not an adequate conditioner.
Yes, xyobgyn, and then I asked that you read my subsequent posts on what ARC is doing with aftermarket AC cords in their factory listening room! ARC completes that quote about interconnections with real-world use of AC cords to voice their designs. Please do not try to edit the comprehensive evidence I have offered.
IMPORTANT: Use the best available speaker wires and interconnects. Audio Research cannot emphasize this enough. As better components and systems are developed, it becomes increasingly important to avoid the limitations of inferior system interconnections.
I trust you’ve copied what ARC has in their insert correctly. I believe it’s a valuable contribution to a discussion about what ARC believes the end user should consider for speaker wires and interconnects. But it doesn’t seem to apply to this thread.
It is your quote, not mine.
I am surprised no one else picked up on this. An interesting poll would be to see if any companies include on paper, in their user instructions, opinions that one should invest in the best possible or best matching PC to go with their amp, preamp, DAC, Turntable or whatever?
I know it doesn’t settle the question posed my the OP, “How do PC change the sound?
"If one were to grant that a PC can change the resulting sound of a system.... one has to posit that there is intrinsically “something” we are essentially conditioning or altering coming in from the wall current." xyobgyn
Yes, that "something" IS the electrical current that courses through your system and wires and into your speakers. Upon that current resides the audio signal you like to hear. If the current is kept free of noise and distortion, you hear more of the signal. An EE may say the current has been filtered through many phases of circuit and the AC cord does not matter. Empirically, those of us who are not EE’s are experiencing that high-quality AC cords, interconnects, speaker wires and fundamentally-important isolation transformers are bringing sound quality to much higher levels of enjoyment. At the expense of sounding naive, I have concluded that there must be a burden of distortion that must be shared by the audio signal all the way through the system. Otherwise, an AC cord would not matter, but it does.
"First, a poster quoted ARC, a respected audio company and unless I am mistaken twisted the quote badly to suit this discussion. The paragraph he quoted from ARC referenced specifically speaker wire and interconnects. Not power cords." xyobgyn
Yes, that was me, and yes, you are mistaken. See my subsequent post on the Sainline AC cords ARC has used at the factory to test their designs. Look at the Sainline Systems site for that verification by Warren Gehl, chief listener for ARC product design and every piece that leaves the factory. He uses high-quality AC cords in the ARC factory listening room!
Fascinating to read this. Appreciate many of the posts. I will admit bias and not having tested since I believe so strongly in the power of suggestion.
But two things stand out.
First, a poster quoted ARC, a respected audio company and unless I am mistaken twisted the quote badly to suit this discussion. The paragraph he quoted from ARC referenced specifically speaker wire and interconnects. Not power cords.
Second, a very basic concept (in my opinion).
If one were to grant that a PC can change the resulting sound of a system.... one has to posit that there is intrinsically “something” we are essentially conditioning or altering coming in from the wall current. I think this argues for power conditioners, not PC that “sort of, kind of”, function as conditioners.
I also find it hard to believe that all the people who perceive this improvement believe that the IEC connector on their unit has the optimal spec as well as optimal wire internally passing the current to the next destination. After all, we couldn’t trust the company to supply a really good sounding PC, and many of the same people swap in special wall outlets.
But all this belief on display that a PC can be heard, does make me suspect that there are some people where their systems would benefit from a power conditioner of some sort. Maybe.
ARC is simply advising to use high-quality connections to match their high-quality parts, hook-up wire, etc. By not doing so, you are dragging down the performance of your expensive gear to a cheapo level, I hate to tell you. Sorry, not sorry.
And I think some manufacturers say to use the best cabling because they don’t want to alienate potential buyers.
Exactly. Some manufacturers surely believe in the use of high end AC cables. But some are obviously making concessions to the audiophile market. I've seen speaker designers say if they had their way, they'd be selling fully active speakers, but the audiophile market just doesn't want them because audiophiles like to play with amps, cables etc. So...they sell what the market wants. I remember a number of manufacturers of gear say the reason they don't use hard wired AC cables isn't because they think AC cables make a difference, but rather that they would simply be cutting away part of their market - the sizable portion of audiophiles who insist they need to be able to swap in expensive AC cables.
@prof another excellent post! I would say the measurements that show a change to the output signal don’t exist because they don’t exist. And I think some manufacturers say to use the best cabling because they don’t want to alienate potential buyers. And what does that mean exactly? To me the best interconnects is a Beldon purchased for $50. If they said cables don’t matter and you’re an idiot if you think so, then if you believed they did you wouldn’t buy their product.
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