Asa's quote from his 3-11-03 post:
"4.4 trillion projected deficit + cost of Iraq "war" and occupation + Japanese impending bank implosion + $40+/barrel sweet crude + housing bubble + predominant tax breaks for top 5% + highest unemployment rate since last Bush recession + a thousand points of Perle's imperialist light + a yellow ribbon around your neck = tick, tick, tick..."
Good call Asa, especially the housing bubble part, recognizing it for what it was so early on. Now tell us, how did you know when so many of our lawmakers and policymakers didn't, hmmmm. |
well well i am listening to my jeff rowland 8T with my consonance pre. (which by the way has the best sounding phono i have ever heard) my sources are oracle delphi MKII table and sony sacd xa777es with alon MKV millerized speakers and the music it produces is absolutely heavenly, i've owned lots of macs/krells/classe/copland just about endless systems but nothing comes even close to the 8T period |
Pmkalby,
Delighted to have you weigh in on this topic. I agree that those who speak negatively about Rowland gear are likely doing so from a position of ignorance. To my way of thinking, Jeff Rowland has contributed more to the advancement of the High End art form than anyone else. And I'm not speaking solely of appearance when I say that. A careful investigation of his offerings will leave one better informed about State of the Art and more appreciative of the effort that can be made toward that end by one man committed to improvement and disinterested in marketing. |
Is it any surprise that those who don't own and who have never owned Rowland gear bash it? This is analagous to the ugly guy saying Playboy's playmate of the month must be stupid-- she'll never sleep with him anyhow, but now he feels better because he's taken her off the pedestal. Sniping at Rowland while listening to your surround sound receiver must be comforting.
Comments like "anything made today will run circles around " are simply ignorant.
What, exactly are the huge technological advances that have been made in stereo pre-amplifier design in say, the last 15 years? For extra credit, show the validity and technical merit of these so-called advances in light of the staying power of tube preamps and amps with numerous audiophiles (many with designs that are positively antique). Show your work.
No credit for --"you old 2-channel farts are just used to that sound, that's why you like old gear"-- type answers will be given. |
Cdc -- I'm not familiar with any of those products but it sounds like you answered my question. I see Rowland's stuff as somewhat timeless like a Porsche but, cool as the old Speedster may still be, anything made today would run circles around it. I can't imagine that the Model Two is all that obsolete yet but you offered three possible alternatives and it would appear that Audiogoners are shunning this amp for some reason.
As for what happens when you want to sell.....that's a crapshoot but maybe, as with stocks, it is good to buy while the market is down. A few months back I almost bought a Classe 25 for $1200. The poor guy couldn't give it away. He finally did and now they are commanding nearly $2K and are hard to find. Same way with Concentras. Sometimes there are 6 or 8 of them in our listings and at other times (like now) there aren't any. Go figure. |
I'd buy a Model 2 but how much will I loose if I don't like it and decide to sell in 1 month?
How much, if any, better is it than Musical Fidelity A3.2cr or Audio by Van Alstine Fet valve 350ex or Blue Circle BC22 mkII? These amps are ~$1,700 new / $1,100 used, more power and newer technology too. |
Wow!
Lots of activity on this thread! I use my Model 2 with a Pass Aleph P pre-amp or my Adcom GFP 750 pre-amp, or the way I currently use it-with the variable out on my Sony XA7ES player directly into the amp.
Yes, Rowland & Pass make expensive gear. And YES, most of it is exported to the Asian market.
You don't have to buy new, then both brands are much easier to afford.............. |
Macrojack- Just to answer your question: I'm not buying one of the Model 2s because I have a Model 10. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else. For what it's worth - I don't think it's necessary to use a matching Rowland preamp (and I'm not). |
Jfz, That may be their intention but sadly, they aren't going anywhere. What a bummer to have a $5800 amp that draws no takers at $2200. That's only 38% of retail on something that is still just like new. Look at the pictures of these amps in the ads. They look great.
If I take it to a personal level and ask myself why I don't want to buy one, the answer is that I have a Concentra. Perhaps the existance of the integrated is what has short-circuited the sale of basic amps.
Why aren't you (or anyone else) buying one of these Model Two amps?
Another issue to consider is the price and scarcity of the matching preamp. A Concentra can be had without phono for an average of $2750, whereas a Model Two and a Synergy One would set you back nearly $5000 if you get the best price ever to appear on Agon on both of them. That's a whopping big difference. Once you throw in appropriate interconnects, you've probably doubled the cost.
Pure speculation on my part but the numbers support the theory. However, who knows what anybody else is thinking? |
I agree that going from a Model 2 to a 302 is unlikely. People may be going from the 2 to a Model 10 or 12 or 112, though. |
Macro,
I've noticed a ton of preamps also, but I don't know why. Maybe folks are venturing into tubed preamps as they get older and wiser. |
Jond,
A friend of mine sold his Twelves on Agon and bought the 302 a while back and he says it is a quantum leap forward. He'a using Quad 989s and the Lindemann D-680 CD player with Nordost Valhalla throughout so you can see he is aware.
There can be no question about the impact of the 302 but I still think that while many are moving up, even more are moving out.
The item most prevalent on the for sale list seems to be the Model Two and going from that to a 302 is an unlikely leap.
By the same token, the only Concentras or Model 112s on the list are being offered from foreign countries. Old preamps (especially Consummates) are also pretty numerous. What would you guess is causing that? |
Macrojack,
I gave my opinion above, but to reiterate, economics, and the desire to upgrade. I believe the newly released 302 has some Rowland owners drooling. |
Hey Y'all,
Damn it Taters, what have you heard or demoed or owned that sounds better, in your opinion. It's easy to sit at your keyboard and spout out this nonsense about "shiny boxes" but you have yet to qualify your statements. Put up or shut up. Give us some examples of what you think are better performing amps or clam up..........John |
Like I said in my previous thread you are more impressed
by shiny boxes and award winning websites than you are
with sound reproduction!
|
Yes, Tater, you are supposed to be impressed. Please tell me in whole sentences why Jeff's award winning site doesn't impress you. |
Macro, I'm loving this! Funny!
Pendulums, yes, but oscillations bifurcate at increasingly progressive rates. The Earth is a mirror. Look outside, the pendulum is shaking; its not just about the stability of political structures of the species Homo sapiens over historic time, but all consciousness over evolutionary time.
Anyway, thanks again for the belly laugh! |
And, Taters, the SPECIFIC Rowland amps you have heard in your system and how they came up short compared to specific other brands models are...? |
Hey Macrojack,I looked up the Rowland website Am I supposed
to be impressed.If you like shiny boxes I could make you
some at a considerable lower price.Let me know what size
you want and I will make them for you!
For an extra fee I could even have them engraved JRDG! |
Jond,
Your request that I omit the Dead from this thread is fair and reasonable and I will honor it since I believe the Grateful Dead, like other religions should be a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of thing.
What's your theory about the equipment glut? |
Tater, honey,
I hold little hope for you as a result of reading your petulant anti-Rowland rantings. You can't or won't spell the man's name correctly and you have not as yet betrayed any knowledge upon which you might reject his fine amplifiers.
If you trouble yourself to type JRDG into Google ou will find his website. From there you select "products" and from there select the Concentra II. There is a tech talk section there which will provide you with many reasons to admire his innovative spirit and clever designs.
If ever you purchase a new Rowland product, the experience of opening the box and acquainting yourself with the sophistication and gracious goodwill of the people who built and packaged it just for you is delightful beyond ready description. If ever you have been attended to by the more elegant of the servant trade, then you have a hint of the feeling Rowland conveys.
Soundwise, it cannot be faulted. I will concede that there are amplifiers whose characteristics better convey the sound effects of overproduced, unintelligible commercial recordings but in my vast experience I have yet to hear any solid state device that can do better justice to the essence of real music performed on acoustic instruments.
So, Tater, please do yourself a favor by noting the correct spelling and reading about the Concentra II. If you are still in the mood to lock horns on this topic at that time perhaps you will have some.
|
Asa,
Don't be fooled by my misanthropic diatribes. I'm a believer in the pendulum theory and feel strongly that we'll recover from our greed cycle. People are stupid in their low level reflexes, what with tying yellow ribbons for Buffoon 1 and berating the French for their sensible position versus Buffoon 2, but insofar as they blow in the wind, they will be blown back to sanity. Unless, of course, we are all blown to kingdom come.
We are in YIN times and for that reason our focus is outward and superficial but Buffoon 2 is unwittingly reversing this trend by providing us with a virtual certainty of YANG times in the near future. When our belts tighten sufficiently, we will again concern ourselves with substance.
The future, while superficially bleak, holds much promise as gutcheck time draws nigh. |
Hey, leave the Grateful Dead out of this! |
Obviously when you all go off the subject at hand talking
about Harley Davidson and Mcdonalds It just shows that
Roland gear is not exciting enough to stay on the topic.
Like I had said in my previous thread there is better
sounding gear out there.If Roland gear was so entharling
you would not be bringing Mcintosh,Mcdonalds,and Harley
Davidson into this thread! |
Macrojack: you said it all. Pretty soon, me too, I'll just be listening to the music on a nice small system and fade off into the distance...It does make me sad though, to see people like yourself who love music forced from that retreat. I have said this before: the audio hiend is in trouble - and you are right, the attrition has been occuring, at a deeper level, for ten or so years now. This is happening because, underlying even that, is a decline in our society's valuing of things vs. meaning; we accumulate things in the hopes of finding meaning. This happens in most empires eventually. Pull up a seat, you have a front row view...Rowland being dumped is only a very minor surface eddy. There will be other oscillations...
I tip my hat to the brethren and say, this too shall pass. |
jrd -- I agree completely that all myths contain a kernel of truth. In the case of the Dead, Harley and McIntosh those kernels are old and dried up. Rowland is still vital and emerging where the sun has set on the others and only nostalgia or ignorance sustains their vestiges. |
mac,the dead,harley...all are recession proof enigmas...they all have an intangible that many others don't....rowland is great stuff but at the end of the day its still just another high priced amp without the mythology when it comes time to move on....all myths contain at least a little truth... |
Incidentally, I think it unlikely that any of you little boys would want a Harley if it didn't make noise. If not for U.S. government intervention, market forces would have eliminated HD years ago. They can't compete fairly with the Japanese as their products are dollar for dollar vastly inferior. All they are is noise and myth. That said, I will repeat that McIntrash is the perfect corollary in the audio world. Perhaps Crown is the Indian.
No complaints about my reference to the Dead being like Mac and HD? |
Can't speak of other markets but audio has been experiencing attrition for 10 years or more. Some of us have died and others have lost jobs, lost interest or succumbed to divorce, computer or home theater distractions or insufficient funds to continue reinvesting endlessly. When high-end audio was growing the "carrot" proffered by TAS might have cost $20K, more than most of us could afford but within dreaming range. When that "carrot" moved to a point well beyond our mortgages, many of us despaired of ever being able to so much as dream of reaching for it. Some lost interest at that point. Who wants to participate in a game from which they are clearly disqualified.
Since Bush (not Osama) pulled the rug from under Clinton's economy, there are a tremendous number of white collar casualties who have to decide between their kid's tuition and their prized sound system. Or maybe it's health care or mortgage payments that force that decision.
In any case, we are losing brethren by the score and their detritus is beginning to clutter Audiogon with many a glorious piece at ever descending prices. Rowland is only one of many. |
On Rowland: if you look at many "hi end" markets, not just audio, you can see this initial erosion in consumer confidence and buying power. For instance, last month wine auctions at ChristiesNY were off considerably on Bordeaux even though bottles submitted for auction were also up precipitously. Certainly, the richest will keep buying the Screaming Eagle Cabernets, but Rowland is not a Japanese AudioNote Kondo SE amp, and the wealthiest discriminate against the difference in terms of cache (which, without commenting on the relative merits of a Kondo vs. a Tenor, can be translated as, what will produce another of my socio-economic stata to covet what I have). Rowland falls in the demographic of upper middle class to upper-upper middle class, as far as price goes. It is this strata that is just beginning to feel the erosion that is moving up from the bottom stratas - even as the upper middle class deny it in default to the droning light ray connected from FOX News to their foreheads.
I can not say for certain that the Rowland situation here is necessarily following this trend, but many other such products are following similar arcs and market weakeness trends on ebay.
If there are any collectors out there with other hobbies, I would like to hear their comments on this.
Ohn: you are a paragon of restraint :0) |
Nothing..but it makes as much sense as trying to determine why there are a number of Rowland pieces currently for sale. That said, I apologize to LbSilver for contributing to the hijacking of his/her thread. |
Lets get on track here, what in the world has Harley Davidson have to do with Rowland gear in general and high end audio in particular? |
I've been riding for a little over twenty years, but I've never owned an H-D. In fact, I don't have any desire to own one either. That said I have respect for H-Ds and for those who ride them. The fact that Harley doesn't make a motorcycle that suits my specific needs, or at least my perception of my needs, doesn't put me in any position to judge their suitability for other riders. An element of empathy involves putting aside one's own bias and respecting the decisions of others.
If a Harley were an audio product it would be big tubed power amp. Maybe a McIntosh, or more likely a Manley. |
Asa- an Indian (pre1953) are way cooler than a new Harley;
a mint 1940 Indian Four will set you back $60,000. A mint
1940 Indian Chief, side valve, suicide shifter, and all
will set you back $30-40,000. A modern Harley or Indian, I do not think I would own one now. |
Ohn: "distribution" conotes distribut-ing, which is an action. All human actions originate from the mind. Similarly, a political hierarchy, in our case, democratic-capitalism, is an abstraction that hides its deeper, truer meaning. To illustrate, I can not walk out my front door and point to "democracy" or "capitalism" because they are words that denote a collective state of mind; in our case, conformism by a group of minds we call "America" who conform to certain ideas. Again, you are still brought back to the origin; that the mind decides. There is no structure apart from the minds which envision it, and that abstraction only becomes a "thing" when those minds assume that it is the only truth, or the only possibility for the collective. Economies of scale - that alot of minds eat processed food, so, therefore, the truth is defined by their actions - confises what I was taliking about, namely, that it not a political issue, but an evolutionary one. If you say, "Well, everyone else is doing it so it must be right" then you conform to others mind's rules. This conformism keeps you from seeing that the empathy I mentioned is not perceived by "happiness", or the desire to stimulate instinctual pleasure centers of the mind, but is found through transcending that desire for materialism, ie empathy is attained through perception of meaning, not simply pleasure.
Oh BTW, Harleys seem cool to me...(as a machine and apart from their internal combustion heritage) |
One thing that I have learned over the years dovetails with the lyrics of Jim Croce (how often can you trot out that reference?). :-) You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, and you don't mess around with Harley riders (the "pin setters" of the AMF days excluded, of course). |
I have owned a 1987 Harley Davidson Lowrider and a 1940
Indian Chief. No comparison. I have heard the Rowland 302
amplifier with the Meitner preamp and the Avalon Eidolon,
with both the Spectral frontend and the Ayre frontend.
It was an excellent sounding setup, whether the Rowland
made it better I could not say, but the owner likes it
better than the Rowland 10 or 12 which were in the system
previously. |
Asa, we live in a world where many problems (healthcare, clean water, nuclear proliferation, environmental degradation, etc.) are all technically solvable, but the political economic system does not encourage their implementation of these solutions. To say that it's a distribution problem really means that it's a political problem.
McDonald's has been a a successful company because of its ability to attract paying customers. You don't sell a billion meals without making someone somewhere happy. When you criticize McDonald's, or to bring it into the audio world, Bose, you are implicitly criticizing the decision-making ability of its customers. "50 Million Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong", but apparently a billion McDonald's customers can. |
4yanx, I knew it was tongue in cheek from you. I thought it was funny, actually. I need to use smiley faces more I think. Also, still stirring, can't help myself. My apologies for using you as a foil, but if I admitted the foil part then we couldn't get these guys out of the woodwork. Thanks again for the chuckle. Your responses are very interesting, at least to me, and they make me think.
MacIntrash, love it! Now that's FUNNY!
Ohn: "reasonable quality food." My my...matter processed for the masses with chemicals added to stay here longer. Are they food companies or chemical companies that process processed food? Regardless of context, ie price, doesn't something drop below the radar of quality, any "reasonable" utility, at some point? If they put a two stroke lawn mower engine on a Harley, what would be the point, regardless if someone who was poor could afford it? As you said, either you know or you don't...I sympathize with your compassion for the meek, financially speaking in the context of the "american project", but maybe start with the horse before the cart: maybe, just maybe, the problem is in an acceptance of the means, especially when it means eating a horse, analogically speaking. We have enough food now to feed everyone all over the world and not kill another mind; its just a distribution problem, and one of greater empathy than just for the $2 dollar guy, problems that multinational food processing companies would like to catalyze, not cure. Of course, just my opinion... |
Hello All,
Very interesting thread.
I have the Concentra 2 with Proac 2.5's and an Arcam FMJCD23. The sound (actually the music) is incredible. I have worked my way up to this rig and could not be happier. I listen to many types of music for extended periods of time and the lifelike presentation is amazing.
I also drive a Harley (FatBoy) and after driving many other types of bikes I can tell you the experience is second to none! Like the Rowland? Who knows? ---- I can only tell you that I enjoy both. Very special products indeed!!! |
The Harley-Davidson thing is so much more complex than any branding that occurs in the audiophile world. Either you understand The Motor Company or you don't.
Hey Macrojack, it spelled M-c-D-O-N-A-L-D's. As the largest merchant of prepared food in the known universe McDonald's serves reasonable quality food at reasonable prices in a convenient manner. If you want the greatest hamburger in the world, I've heard of a restaurant in NYC that serves a pound of ground sirloin on a fresh baked onion roll for $50 a serving. It must be so easy to look down upon those who only have $2 or $3 to spend on a meal.
Back to motorcycles - real men walk with a limp. I bet you don't understand that either. |
jrd,
I have no idea if Mac sells well through all kinds of weather but I think using Harley as an analogy is prescient in that neither particularly excels at anything but both have captured the imagination of those who have little other
cerebral enterprise. For those who can never quite connect the dots, Harley, Mac and, indeed, the Grateful Dead are prima facie icons.
What in hell does Harley Davidson have to do with freedom or Confederate flags? And what, pray tell, does MacIntrash have to do with high end audio? Those who still wave the Mac flag are unaware of the progress designers such as Jeff Rowland
offer and will always remain so. Quality is not for everyone. If it was, MacDonalds would not have sold any hamburgers. |
Asa, perhaps only a face-to-face would have revealed the tongue supplanted firmly in my cheek as I eschewed the bitter nectar of fruit on which I snacked (verjuice) and bemoaning the bad luck of the draw while engaged in a spirited round of Bezique (a pinochle-like card game). :-)
No trying to slip in that extra "j" (8 points) in 4yanx, either. ;-0 |
Oh, I know, 4yanjx, just stirring the pot-o-bit, don't you know; someone told me once it was the essence of democracy. (Things ahave been a bit calm around audiogon lately).
Not squeezing me, though, but sure is some people down the road (look out your car as you pass...). On second thought, if one does, in fact, identify with other people, then might just be squeezing that person too, ie empathic identification is a little more than just "world events", although that abstraction does have an intriguing distancing quality about it. On pessimism: who was it that said, "Wish for things exactly as they happen"? Anyway, yes, leave unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, metaphorically his lack of empathy for the other, but that doesn't mean deny that what he is doesn't exist. Can you say, embedded aristocratic corporate oligarchy with their own 'lil army? Hmmm...Yes, economically speaking, the empire will do just fine after it swallows this next thing, and, as such, we all as citizens of the realm will reap the profits at some point. But, will we also reap the wind, reap what has been sown?
I like the point thing though. Problem is that I don't know what Bezique is (!) or what verjuice means (!), so you would have to educate me there. But I still get what you were trying to say, I hope.
Oh BTW, I'm not really playing scrabble and hiding in a bunker; I'm hear talking to you...
Oh yea, I like Rowland just fine. |
Asa (three points), if world events are giving your shorts such a squeeze (25 points), perhaps a few hands of Bezique (27 points) are in order when you've had your fill of Scrabble. Me, I am less pessimistic, the taste in my mouth being less like verjuice (20 points). ;-) |
I would like to comment on two of the above posts. I purchased my Rowland amplifier to keep and enjoy. If it's just a stop on the way, it would be to upgrade to another Rowland amplifier. Again, to my ears it's the best solid state amplifier I have heard at its price point. I started with tube kits in the 60's and over the years have owned and heard many great amplifiers both tube and solid state and Jeff Rowland is one of them. The other post listed Gamut and Herron as better sounding amplifiers. I haven't heard any Gamut products but I did have the chance to listen to the Herron ss monoblocks in my system and while it was a pleasant sounding amplifier it didn't have the bass control, extended midrange and top end as the Rowland. Again, that is in my system, my room, my source components so your experience may be different. To answer another post, yes I would still buy it if it didn't look as good as it does. |
4.4 trillion projected deficit + cost of Iraq "war" and occupation + Japanese impending bank implosion + $40+/barrel sweet crude + housing bubble + predominant tax breaks for top 5% + highest unemployment rate since last Bush recession + a thousand points of Perle's imperialist light + a yellow ribbon around your neck = tick, tick, tick...
Hey, but that metal box sure does sound great!
Sell the Rowlands, consolidate, baton down the hatches, play scrabble while the storm passes over. |
many audiophiles are purging their two channel systems for multichannel,or going for tube gear. when times are tough the only brand that continues to appreciate at all is mac....lovem or hatem,thats a fact....its like a harley....look at all the top of the line motorcycles that can't be sold ...no one buys a rowland to keep and enjoy...its just a stop on the way somewhere else. |
Hopefully, everyone knows the difference between Rowland and Roland equipment. I have not heard any Rowland gear, but my son's Roland V-drum kit sounds mighty good! :-) |
tungwww:Have you heard ALL the Rowland amps? If so, in your own system with nothing else changing during the comparison? |
