I have read thousands of comments on upgraded fuses improving the performance of sound. I am very open minded but not sold either way. So, the question I have is....if fuses were so important, than why don't Amplifier companies all install them as OEM equipment? To me, if they are as good as people say, that would provide companies who use them a competitive advantage?
Every High End Audio store I go to in Phoenix have told me it does not make a difference and is a waste of money. For the record, I have fuses purchased at an automotive store for under $10 and I think my sound is awesome. The Company that built my amp tested the Synergistic Fuses and he emphatically said there was no difference.
If I were to try a fuse for fun, given my equipment, what would your recommendation be to try?
+1 Nonoise OP's question- "If I were to try a fuse for fun, given my equipment, what would your recommendation be to try? " Somebody took the fun right out of his thread huh? The Padis Nonoise reccommended sounds like a good option. I have the synergestic Red and Black. Really nice improvement in my system.
Those measurements clear it up for everyone? I love to listen to measurements. The warmth of some measurements versus the clinical sound of others. Oh the humanity!
Ear witness testimony just to like eye witness testimony is often wrong, and people hear what they want to hear based on the amount of money spent on cables, fuses, power cords, etc. Why do you think the big magazines never to an A/B test with these expensive add ons?
Waste of money . I don't think you will hear a difference in voodoo fuses or magic clocks or super expensive cables . But hey , its our hobby , so if you have money that does'nt interfere with monthly bills , have fun !
When I start listening to the difference sound for which direction I installed a fuse, I'm not listening to music anymore. I'm searching for extremely subtle changes in sound quality that may or not even be there, but certainly ignoring a great set of chord changes, a terrific session with a piano, deft fingering on a violin.
If ear witness testimony is often wrong how do we decide what to buy ? I would always prefer the less expensive stuff to sound best and for tweaks and cables to never help. But hasn't worked out for me...
When I start listening to the difference sound for which direction I
installed a fuse, I'm not listening to music anymore. I'm searching for
extremely subtle changes in sound quality that may or not even be there,
but certainly ignoring a great set of chord changes, a terrific session
with a piano, deft fingering on a violin.
+1. Exactly reason I prefer a boombox to Agastino Momentums. I dissect the sound with Agastino and don't enjoy the music. Is the air, resolution, bass ... real or product of Agastinos.
"Naysayers, you can't go through life using conjecture, insults, snide remarks, and a low and transparent level of sophistry and have any credibility"
+2 @nonoise - You couldn't have said any better. Sadly, it didn't sink in...one member here continue to blah blah his DIY skills based on a F5 clone. I mean anyone can put together an amp with off the shelf parts with proper instructions.
When you think about it, the notion that a fuse can make a difference is not that implausible. If, as most designers of high-end audio electronics will admit, the kind of wire used for a component's internal wiring can make a difference, then why not a fuse? After all, the job of the fuse is to melt when a certain level of current is reached, so might there not be differences in how various fuses react to current at lower levels, possibly constricting or otherwise influencing the power used by the component?
Based on my experience, the stock fuse don't sound bad, in fact they sound just fine. In my system, upgraded Fuses improved the overall sound with slightly better dynamics and transients.
As with any tweaks, the level of improvements may vary based on the components design and overall implementation.
If you hear a difference with upgraded fuses keep them, if you don't then simply return them. It's your money and your system, do what pleases you to make it sound better!
Waste of money . I don't think you will hear a difference in voodoo
fuses or magic clocks or super expensive cables . But hey , its our
hobby , so if you have money that does'nt interfere with monthly bills ,
have fun !
You need a higher resolution system to hear differences in fuses and clocks but cables?? What do you have for a system?
If it is just a piece of wire, then replace the emitter resistors in an amplifier with pigtail fuses, or wire lead micro fuses. ( I used sockets, so I could change the values and types)
Go ahead, try it.
Sounds like crap on a level that is near impossible to describe.
so about those fuses, again...... and how they have no effect on the sound?
Two kinds of fuses - power supply fuses and those in the signal path (output fuses).
Never heard a difference in power supply fuses. If you do, great. Something else to spend money on. Maybe it's just because I use amps that run for about 20 seconds after switched off before you hear the sound get congested and then finally end about another 20 seconds later as the caps drain.
Output fuses are a different matter. Doubt many of you have seen or even heard of the speakers I use in my 3rd system - Vandersteen 4a. In writing the manual on those Richard Vandersteen advocated getting rid of any output fuses and replacing them with 1/4" solid copper automotive fuel line. Not sure amplifier manufacturers would approve, but those fuses are directly in the signal path, and if you believe that speaker cables make a difference, you pretty much have to agree that the inch or two of fuse in the path also must affect sound.
@koost_amojan, This is beginning to sound like the "all cables sounds the same" argument, or "all amps, designed correctly, sound the same" argument. They measure the same, or close enough, so how can you hear a difference?
Are you in that camp? Another lost cause. As for your remote diagnostic abilities as to my being easily fooled, all I have to say is you missed your calling. The CIA could have used you for remote viewing, spying on the Russians. I hear they pay well.
As to the ability to measure black holes, if NASA, with all their resources, decided to investigate the differences between fuses, they's find it in the first round of testing.
As for measuring, I had to turn down my volume by 2-3db because after changing directions, it was too loud. Also, I had to turn off the treble boost and go back to 'flat' since the highs were now restored. That was measured by my ears. Delusion had no part in it. That's all I needed to convince myself. What have you done?
Under transient loading and a traditional power supply or rectifiers, caps and transformers..the fuse is definitely in the signal path.
And it carries import due to the fact that the ear/brain derives 100% of what it hears, via 10% of the signal -----which is that of the transients. Just the transients. Just the leading positive edge, in their value, with respect to one another, and the timing between them, as a group.
The ear does not hear or use the other 90% of the signal. Which is why engineering weighting in signal analysis, where 100% of the signal is used..is mostly in error when it comes to correlating those engineering numbers to what people hear.
The ear is a balls on -off the rails- impossibly complex ~impossible to replicate with human hardware~...FFT analysis device. Far finer and more refined than anything we can build.
BTW, FFT analysis is based on quantum holography. No joke, no woo-woo, no hyperbola. That’s where the math and method of FFT comes from. It’s where FFT really shines.
The takeaway or next domino of logic (much research in this area for the intrepid explorer of science to find and peruse) Is that the brain function is Quantum zero point energy based - non-local holographic.
Ain’t that a peach.
Point is, that most people arguing science here, don’t even know what the heck the car/vehicle that they drive and live in ---is.
No woo-woo, this is good solid modern cutting edge science I speak about.
A bit of extra point/credits, is that we’ve even had scientists remove part of the brain from animals and the animal fails to function. Which is expected, yes? Then, as an extreme level finale... to try and get to the bottom of their results..which will become clear in a second (regarding their high strangeness)..then take the half of the brain that was removed, grind it into hamburger(!)... and stick it back in to it’s original spot..and the animal goes back to functioning normally. In that context, what exactly is a brain, then? (No one exactly knows yet, but it’s certainly beyond classical Newtonian meat and clockworks, as the intrepid seekers have found out.)
Ouch. Definitely one step too far for the fears of most humans. Not unlike that of this ridiculously simple question about fuses.
When we look at how the world ~really~ works, it can drive the intelligent to tears.... to see how uninformed and unaware people can be...and then...argue about such trite and obvious stuff as whether a person can hear a fuse or not.
- If you have looked inside a fuse (like the glass fuses), you will see a VERY thin wire. Say a 1 amp fuse. The internal wire is extremely small, something like 26awg or 28awg (not entirely sure). If this is for a preamp, would you ever put on a power cable smaller than 18awg? (that’s stock, and I don’t think they make them smaller). No, you would upgrade to something like 14awg or even 12awg -- so that there is less current restriction. All A/C has to go through this tiny wire, even if it’s less than 1" long.
- The wire in the fuse has electrical resonance as well. Different upgraded fuses will sometimes do things to combat this resonance. The same thing happens inside electrolytic capacitors (during charge/discharge). The material/filler used in capacitors has a definite affect on electrical resonance and sound quality. Poor resistance to electrical resonance in caps will result is harsh sound that lacks solidness.
- People who say that the fuse and power cords are not in the signal path are not entirely correct. The actual waveform signal that starts at the source is never the actual signal that makes it to the amp. For anyone who doesn’t realize this, the basic idea of a transistor or op amp circuit is to "regenerate" the incoming signal. It never truly "passes through". There is always a resistor that the signal passes through and then a opamp/transistor gain circuit. Well, the gain circuit uses voltage/current from the A/C power supply to re-create or "add to" the output voltage for the signal. The power cord and fuse has a definite impact to the quality of this power supply voltage/current.
- Since A/C power is used to create/add-to this signal, the type of power cord or fuse will definitely affect the "flavor" of the sound. Just like comparing gold-plated connector to rhodium plated. Comparing silver wire to copper wire, etc.
- There are things that our ears are hearing which we cannot measure for at our current level of technology. Granted, electrical engineers will "nay say" this, but ask yourself this: What can we measure today that we couldn’t measure 10 years ago? 20 years? 35 years? (when they were making tube based electronics).
@willgolf, @jl35, No matter what is posted as of late, brings out people with issues. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Consider it a given in these times.
I just think the company Has to bump up there price if they put a $100 fuse in. I have tryed the Black fuse. The 30 day trial plan. LOL. you won't want to get The damn things out. if you get a great deal buy them. Only make sure its a great deal. I would rather buy a $100 5th. Of Tequila. I've hear more With a change for the better in a nice wall socket
Well, to be fair, I'm not sure I would characterize most of the naysayers' comments as intellectually sincere or even honest. Nothing like that. They just enjoy giving audiophiles a hard time. Nothing so lofty as any kind of intellectual argument, nothing like that.
Kosst_amojan 9-9-2017 Auxinput is just lying when he says it made a 3dB difference. There’s no physical phenomenon in the universe that would explain that and that’s a difference easily measured.
Kosst, for the record note that Auxinput did not say that. It was another member who said that "I had to turn down my volume by 2-3db because after changing directions, it was too loud."
Also, IMO both Auxinput and the member who made that statement have over the years established excellent reputations for sincerity. That said, however, I agree that the stated 2-3 db effect is simply impossible, and was probably due to either some other variable or to misperception.
Lots of things in this hobby are "impossible." Lots of things in this hobby defy explanation. Lots of things in this hobby appear to disobey the laws of physics. So what else is new? 😛 Just wait’ll you guys get a load of some stuff that’s really controversial. Tempers will flare.😡
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
@almarg Thanks for the compliment. Yes, it was me who said that I had to turn the volume down 2-3db and it was not a misperception. My normal listening level is -37db. That was with both the HIFi Tuning Fuses and the PADIS fuses in, the wrong way.
Both times that I reversed them, I had to turn it down to -39db to -40db as it was just too forceful, i.e., too loud. The only difference between the two fuses were that with the HiFi fuses, the highs were too rolled off and I had to boost the treble 2-3db just to hear things in a somewhat proper perspective. That was rectified once I reversed them. All settings returned to a flat, direct setting.
With the PADS fuses, that was not the case. It was the same with the volume, however. I now listen at -39 to -40db all the time while for the two years before that, it was at least set to -37db. That's the god to honest truth. As to what other variable it can be attributed to, I haven't the foggiest. What I did and what I heard as a result, with my eyes, my hands, and my ears, is that not only do the fuses improve the sound, they are directional.
I'm not inclined to pop open the units and get out my Rat Shack meter to measure the SPLs with test tones or quick and slow readings, going back and forth with the fuses. Been there, done that, twice already, just trying out the fuses. It never occurred to me to document the process as I never expected some of these responses. Someone else can do it. I know what I've heard. I'm not delusional. I try to respect those who disagree as long as they're open minded (like you, Al 😀) and I hope this lays things to rest, because as far as I'm concerned, I'm done with this.
Interesting discussion, With the regards to the ability of a fuse to make a noticeable difference in SQ, I have to wonder how many serious audiophiles ask about fuses when auditioning new equipment. Do any know based on how the component sounds if a 'better' fuse is being used? I would think most would simply upgrade the fuse after a time, and bear witness to an improvement (or not) from that point on.
As far as having the mfr. use a high end fuse, I don't think that is going to ever going to become a standard. Circuit design, and the incorporation of more high end audio components will always be a priority. Of course, many might consider a fuse being an audio component if it makes a difference you can hear. But if you do, then I think you also have to accept the fact that other design factors may affect how big a part the fuse plays in the overall performance. Like would it be as significant as a difference in the build up of tolerances between one production unit to another?
Actually I feel sorry for trolls can’t hear differences with fuses, super duper clocks ... and especially cables. Double blind test ... Either you’re deaf or what the hell is your system???
Hope you’re enjoying the music. Boy you’re missing out!
The differences between perception and reality are real, no matter how small they are. It is a shame, all the artists who will never know how much better their music would sound by changing power cords and fuses .
Thank you @almarg. I was going to comment as I can accept disagreements, but I cannot accept false statement about what I say.
That being said, I also have experienced the 2-3db effect when changing fuses or power cords or op amps. I'm going out on a theory here and I'm sure there will be a lot of conjecture to this, but I believe this all has to do with how a particular circuit "slews" in response to the input waveform. This also has mostly to do with digital sources (if we played from an analog tape, we probably wouldn't have this scenario).
Waveforms from a DAC chip are always created by the DAC chip sending out flat-line DC at different voltage levels. With a 16-bit CD, we have the ability to define 65,536 different possible voltage levels between the lowest point on a waveform and the highest point. However, the output from the DAC chip is always DC (essentially a square-stepped waveform). If we put a tap on the output of the DAC chip and look at the total waveform, it looks like a true analog waveform to us. However, once you zoom into the waveform very closely, you will still see that it's just square-stepped DC at different levels. You might have to zoom 1000% or more to actually see this.
The fight we have with any audio chain based on a DAC is to smooth out this square-stepped waveform so that it resembles a true analog waveform (with no steps). This can be done by applying several/many op amp circuits. The negative feedback capacitor value can affect how this adjusts the waveform as well. Class A circuits are excellent for waveform "smoothing" as they have a very gradual response to the initial input and have more "decay" on the back side of the waveform.
When an op amp (or discrete circuit) responds to the square-stepped wave, it will try to "slew" up to proper voltage to generate this on the output. As soon as it starts "slewing" it will draw voltage from the capacitors in a power supply. Because the capacitor are "temporary" storage, the available voltage starts going down. This is where A/C will start to flow in and restore any voltage in the caps.
Now, if a circuit responds too fast to the incoming "square-stepped" waveform, then it will try to reproduce that "square-stepped" effect as accurately as possible. Slowing down the "response" to a change in input voltage is where want to go.
Different fuses can adjust things one way or the other. For example, using a silver-based fuse can allow very fast and very high conductivity when the op amp circuit tries to draw from the power supply. It will do as least amount of "waveform smoothing " as possible because it can respond and slew very quickly. However, putting in a gold-plated Isoclean fuse can slow down the "initial draw" of current from A/C. It's not the total amount of current we are limiting. It is the "response of the initial draw" (like a water faucet slowly turning on until it get to full output). The Furutech rhodium fuses behave in a different way. They are quicker responding than the gold-plated Isocleans, but not as quick responding as the HI-Fi Tuning silver. This slower response of "initial draw" can cause a more smoothing of the waveforms, causing us to get "louder noise".
It's all based on speaker drivers as well. The square stepped waveform (when measure by a scope) can seem to be correct size, but when most of this is very fast slews to the next point where we have an area of straight DC, you won't get the volume that you expect. Since what we hear as based on the speaker moving (i.e. response to "changes" in voltage), if there is any DC in the waveform, we will not hear it.
This also can explain why silver elements or op amps with extremely fast slew rates will tend to translate waveforms to be faster than what they really should be.
This is all theory based on what I have learned over the years, but I believe it can explain why one fuse will "sound louder" than a different fuse.
My description of how the power supply works is not 100% completely correct. However, it was meant to give a "general idea" to those who don’t know.
Any sort of DC in a waveform is not good. The preamp and amplifier will still use "power/watts" to raise the voltage to the correct level and KEEP that voltage level. However, any sort of DC in the waveform means the speaker is NOT moving! Speakers only react to "changes in voltage". So, if there is DC in the waveform (even if it’s in tiny chunks and only makes up 50% of the waveform), then we will NOT hear it.
If there is still 50% DC in the waveforms, then the sound will indeed be about 3 db quieter. (essentially, half the power is being used to move the speaker - the other half of the power is used to keep DC at a particular voltage).
Also, changing the direction of the fuse could affect how the power supply does the "initial response to draw" from the A/C.
Yes, it's signed. That means the values don't actually represent 0 to 65,536. The values represent -32768 to +32767. This represents the waveform on both the positive side as well as the negative side the waveform (mid point representing 0 volts). When the 16-bit word is read, DAC knows to output 0 volts DC when the 16-bit data word represents the mid point. However, it is still 65,536 different actual points of voltage. It is not 8 bits positive and 8 bits negative. An 8 bit word would only represent about 256 different steps and that is not nearly enough for audio.
I also never said it was not a "A/C" waveform (A/C meaning alternating current). I only said it was not a true "analog waveform". As opposed to a digital waveform, which is usually interpreted to be "square stepped" or "on/off" in most cases.
I'm going to politely state the above as known facts for everyone who doesn't know and not respond from a post that I see only as a troll intending to start a flame war.
The "sound" of a fuse (piece of wire) is a tricky subject indeed! But first we must define (and agree) what exactly is "sound". I propose that "sound" is our brains' interpretation of pressure waves in our oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere impinging upon our ears (acoustic sensors). From this basic proposition we can then make further inquiries. The old debate going back 50+ years was the "sound" of tubes versus transistors. I propose that neither has a "sound". For either to work they must be used in a circuit (amplifier). And then connected to a wave-pressure generator (speaker). Only this coupling (amp/speaker) produces "sound" (pressure waves). Neither the "circuit/amp" nor the "wave pressure generator/speaker has an INTRINSIC quality called "sound". Only by considering the amp/speaker as a SYSTEM can we make progress in our understanding of the phenomenon called " sound"! END OF PART 1: Next, some of my subjective observations on the controversial subject of fuse (wire) "sound".
Here is an interesting aside: John Bedini (one of the premier circuit designers) came to believe in the directionality of resistors. He claimed to have invented a method for measuring this property and using it to select resistors for his amplifier circuits! If true, this would qualify as a major discovery in Physics!
Well, as much as I hate to toot my own horn 🎺 I have been saying all along that because all (rpt all) wire is directional, not only are fuses directional but also resistors, capacitors, transformers, and obviously cables and power cords. Also, internal electronics wiring, internal speaker wiring, crossovers including wiring and you guessed it inductors and capacitors. Gee, what about house wiring? Mr. Bedini might have stumbled onto something. 😳 A major discovery in physics, indeed!
@geoffkait There you go again spouting meaningless platitudes. Nothing in this hobby defies the laws of physics. Plenty of people are skeptical of things that don’t actually exist. I like those people. I get worried when I’m around people hearing things that can’t possibly exist.
Calm down, it’s only an expression. But judging from your reaction 😡, an expression that actually has some meaning, you know, inasmuch as naysayers like yourself keep repeating the same mantra: this directionality phenomenon can’t possibly be real, it’s not possible and it disobeys all known laws of physics and electronics. You like people like yourself. 😡 😡 😡 12 Angry Men. 😀
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
