Let's consider higher-end tables that all sound excellent. Same arm/cartridge and the rest of the chain. Turntable is a seemingly simple device but apparently not quite or not at all. What do members of the 'scientific community' think?
Dear @inna :
Why do turntables sound different?, this is the tittle of your thread.
For a " flat " simple question a flat simple answer:
because each turntable has different overall design, even the different models that comes from the same manufacturer but in a different price range.
Now, from a strictit audio point of view any TT must does not has a sound by it self but be totally " inert "/silent when in playback condition. That never happens for several things that already posted here that confirms that all are different kind of designs.
Something that we have to remember is that when we are trying to explain " something " in audio we just can't do it trying to aisle a single audio item but to take in count how that audio item/link is surrounded by and in the TT case ( as in many other audio items. ) at least we have to consider the cartridge/tonearm and its accurated or not set up and all these is for say the least.
Now, each one opinion about must comes accompanied with first hand experiences in a well know home audio room/system.
I hope that lohanimal post was made it taking in count what I'm saying here and if not it's just an opinion with not to much value about and I say this not because he agree with that " rookie " gentleman.
With so wide open questions are really dificult that the majority of audiophiles can agree with a spécific conlusion.
Anyway, I learned through your thread. Like that reference system that tell us what not to do. Good lesson.
Dear @has2be : I agree with you and I don’t took that post as an insult after analizing that system.
For some gentlemans as that one is very easy to post what ever you want with out gave any explanation/specific examples/facts supporting their statements as happened in that post.
Any one has the privilege to post anything we want, it’s not doubt about.
My post was only to understand whom in audio is the one that posted. Several roocky mistakes in that system, additional to the ones I mentioned: bad trackers cartridges ( a colored Olympos that I heard it 3 times: 2 in other systems and one in my system. It’s not only that I said is colored that Lyra one but in this forum J.Carr mentioned that characteristic of coloration against his other designs. This was before the Atlas. ), no subwoofers where the dedicated amps were designed in specific to fulfill the drivers needs, even the TT/tonearms can’t fulfill the cartridge needs because down there just does not understand which are those needs and many other kinder mistakes.
This kind of persons have its followers, obviously more ignorants than they. R.
dear @inna you said: "higher-end tables that all sound excellent. Same arm/cartridge and the rest of the chain. Turntable is a seemingly simple device but apparently not quite or not at all."
Can I just ask you about your question/proposition?
1. Are you saying all high end tables are excellent? 2. If not which ones are you saying are excellent?
I have heard various expensive decks that have a great reputation - or high price tag LUMLEY REFERENCE; KUZMA REFERENCE AND THE XL - I wasn't impressed with them at all.
By the same token there are some very good decks that do not cost the earth - Funk Firm Saffire; Artemis SA1; DPS; Amazon turntables.
I understand the Syntax point. There are a lot of new decks out there that are little more than a collection of off-the-shlef parts where little or no thought has been given to the overall result - hobbyists like me can be forgiven for 'fiddling for fun' but manufacturers can't.
Can I just say that there are few decks that are designed from the ground up with an integrated approach to the decks arm and cartridge. Consider an EMT Broadcast deck, or say a Beogram 4000?
Dear @rauliruegas , No offence, given or taken, but......
I firmly stand by my statement and the reason for it. Wealth and ownership of anything in life , has nothing to do with gross, over generalized statements on/ about anything or anyone, period. I don't see it as insult , it is just a very narrow and short sighted path to dismiss the few, with the wide brush of "most"....
Regards to you as well, and again.... no offence given or taken. Cheers...............
Dear @has2be : Everything has an explanation. Please let me know what you see ( at once. ) or understand when you make click in the syntax audio system?
My very first reaction is not the normal roockie expression: wow! but that syntax is a whealthy gentleman before any other conclusion but looking at his system items shows that that roockie wow! has no foundation from the point of view of room/system quality top level performance:
As him I owned MS RX5000 and before the 1500. Are very good looking TT's but not so good performers between other things: the platter rings like a bell, all metal design that is based in weigth and mass to stay away from vibrations with out success, all metal arm boards that are located at the TT footers where everything pass through afeccting the cartridge/tonearm quality performance levels, very bad ( for today standards. ) motor board controler and other issues that can't be fixed with that second platter avobe the metal one and add-ons that are only band-aids to a not very good TT design.
He likes all metal undamped tonearms as the FR where we need 2 things: damping and isolation, terrible tonearm. All metal undamped headshells and headshell integrated cartridges that was the fashion in the vintage times where between other things are connected internally with not today best transmition wires.
That system uses today tubes electronics that per sé can't honor MUSIC in any way but additional he use a tube phono stage ( a copy of an old french design. ) with a passive/transformer gain stage that only this phono stage item preclude in that system to have top quality performance levels and it does not matters what the owner can says .
Btw, in his system there is no today top ( very expensive because is his rule about. ) digital alternative that's a today must to have/own ! ! and I can go on and on in all what conforms that system but I think that is enough.
I can say for sure that the one that has no idea of nothing/anything is he. Money means almost nothing and his room/system confirm it. Money is always welcomed but MUSIC/SOUND knowledge levels and skills is the name of the game in any room/audio system.
Of course that roockies or stupid person can be a followers. Such is life.
I don't think that reviewers, manufacturers or customer/audiophiles that analyzed his system for quality level performance can think his post is an insult because it's not.
"I think most manufacturers have no idea what they are doing and why? They buy some parts, think they are good enough because they get praise from people who also have no idea from anything"...
@syntax
Sorry, no offence, but.... IMHO..... That's the most "over" generalized statement I have read in some time.... It also implies, no one else knows what you do, to be able to criticize "most". Below is a good part of most, and none, IMO, fall into your shade... Sure some have other current makes to add as well..........let alone the brands of the past ..... Some not mentioned may well fall into your generalization but the word "most" is a gross over reach.............and price has nothing to do with a statement that uses "most" when it comes to turntables .
Acoustic Signature AMG Basis Brinkman Continuum Davinci Dr. Freickert Forsell Grand Prix JA Michell JC Verdier Kuzmo Kronos Linn Oracle Rocksan Simon Yorke SME Sota Schick Tech Das Transrotor Technics TW Acoustics Walker Well Tempered Vyger
Problem is always those who buy things. If it's not good enough - don't buy it. It's not water or food, you know. But, some manufacturers are very good, so it's not all bad.
I think, most manufacturers have no idea what they are doing and why? They buy some parts, think they are good because they get praise from people who also have no idea from anything (revievers/customers) ....and the story will go on and on ...
"lubrication is made more effective as well on a smaller tighter tolerance contact also"
^^^ actually, I think I said that , in response to lewm on the first page...
and the tighter tolerances in engines and lighter oils is actually one of the many reasons I feel strongly on this point and why better bearings are both lower in friction and self noise..... These new engines run so smooth now its almost mandatory to have an exhaust specifically built to add a "note" so it sounds masculine...........
This is a bit of an Oxford Entrance Exam question, but IMHO and in short:
1. Drive mechanism - affects timing fundamentally - the amount of vibration transferred into the playback and indeed the type/cycle of vibration; 2. Platter - channeling of resonances from the record - also relevant to speed stability and is fundamentally linked to drive mechanism 3. Plinth/suspension - again vibrations both from the record, platter, bearing, and room born 4. the arm - energy transference from cartridge; cartridge match; resonance control
It is arguable that almost everything has an affect on the performance between decks. Just compare the various Linn Sondeks which have seen generations of change - new top deck; bearing; motor, and power supplies. For instance some arms are too heavy for the suspension on the LP12.
What is more interesting is when you have two totally different decks that sound almost the same - but I guess that brings around another whole new topic of discussion ;)
I have pondered whether or not all decks should all aspire to have the same sound, but I think being neutral and altogether accurate is an impossible ideal - why you ask? Well a full rock band, let alone an orchestra can fit in the average persons living room - so how can we expect all-together accurate replay of that very thing?
I would also think that the belt in the belt drive design should be very important. It's like a cable, in a manner of speaking, that connects two components. I can even imagine that at this level my preference might depend on a particular music and record, so I would take both the Continuum and modified Technics, no need to choose, really.
Anvil, With reference to direct-drive turntables, you wrote, "Coupling a motor to the platter, in my estimation is a compromised design." You are not the first person in your industry to make such a distorted statement, so I am sensitive to it. In a direct-drive, the platter IS the rotor of a motor that has its stator mounted symmetrically around the spindle. There is zero possibility for the coupling to introduce noise, except for the noise of the bearing itself. Bearing noise is a bugaboo common to all types of turntables. Quiet operation is a virtue of direct-drive, not a problem. DD introduces other possible issues, but not that one.
As to your statement about DD lacking microdynamics, this can happen if the motor causes counter-rotation of the stator, because of the hi-torque forces involved. (Motor drives platter in clockwise direction but its torque exerts an equal force in the counter-clockwise direction. Per Newton's Third Law of Motion.) If a tiny amount of counter-rotation of the motor or its parts occurs, this results in a perceived speed error by the servo, and the servo exerts a correction. Thus there can be a constant hunting for speed on a very micro level that is not readily perceived as pitch error but as a loss of detail or a mechanical sound. This is why DD turntables do best in massive plinths, IMO. But also, Richard Krebs has addressed the issue for Technics tables with his internal mods that reduce the capacity of the stator to rotate against its own force.
I don't waste my time arguing for one turntable technology uber alles. I have found what I like, and I plan to stick with it. Probably the same is true for others participating in this thread who champion other drive technologies.
Inna et al, Like any top dogs in any field of endeavor, both the Continuum Caliburn and the Rockport Sirius have their detractors, even among belt-drive aficionados.
To defend Ralph against myself, though I only attack him when he is advertising, he is not alone who thinks that modified Technics SP10-MK III with the right arm, cartridge and phono comes very close to the tape sound. I just wonder if top belt drive tables were involved in those comparizons. I think, not sure, that when Fremer was evaluating the Continuum Caliburn he actually said exactly that - closest to tape, and so he got it for himself. It's easy to choose an open reel deck - just get Studer A80 or 810 or Ampex, and if you cannot any of those - Otari. But with turntables, considering that there are many, it's not easy even if you can audition them. But yes, I would actually compare any table with my deck. In other words, even if you are not going to use the deck, you need it to choose a turntable ! And possibly speakers too. In fact, anything. I don't think many do it this way but maybe more than I would expect.
The exact science behind it let alone art remain elusive.
I laid out what the engineering principles are. How well a turntable manufacturer adheres to them will determine how neutral their machine is.
We have a Studer A-80 in the studio. Of all the solid state machines we have, it is clearly the best performer (and by that I mean the most neutral). Tape calibration is not hard if you have an MRL test tape and the manual for the deck. The main difference between consumer decks and pro decks is that the consumer decks are usually set up for flat 1K-10K record and playback, while pro decks are usually set up for flat playback with the lowest distortion in record.
When we recorded Canto General, we used two different machines. Essentially one was tube and the other solid state, both fed the same signal from the mic preamps. That way we were able to audition the difference between the two master tapes. The tube-mastered tape seemed to sound more detailed on both the tube and solid state machines, so we went with that.
Its a simple fact that all tape machines sound different (assuming proper calibration), just as all turntables do (and for that matter, a lot of digital playback).
We are not really closer to answering the original question. In essense, the only kind of answer we have so far is they just do sound different. Or, they just color the sound differently and that's why they sound different. The exact science behind it let alone art remain elusive.
Oh no, I don't have Studer, that's my future project, but I am familiar with good tape sound. And I certainly would not get any high-end table without comparing it to the tape. As for proper alignment and calibration, I would leave it to professionals, there are still people who know how to do it. It is also how I would choose speakers - with Studer or Ampex as a source. And if I was a crazy audiophile millionaires I would also move along three sets of electronics - solid state, hybrid and tube to audition speakers. Let's say, Gryphon for solid state, Ypsilon for hybrid and Lamm for tube. Some would say why such an effort, just get Continuum and that's it. They might be right but they might be wrong too. So, speakers frst, 'wire with gain' second, turntable/arm/cartridge/phono last. nkonor, why are you so sure about that Technics ? Do you already use Technics and want to upgrade? It's expensive stuff.
I think that almost everyone on these forums, think that they are applying science and art to their system at whatever level they are at.
Few mention that they are new to this hobby.
Fewer mention that they are wannabes.
I mostly agree with your comments. But, unless you have your Studer and have it fine tuned/ calibrated and your tapes match the calibration of that Studer; your almost in the same boat as the TT / vinyl people. I may be wrong on this point; perhaps you or Ralph can comment and clarify.
I will still wait for the Technics 10R.
It would be great if you would post your system with pictures. Help us visualize.
Yet, there are those who gave up their Walkers and other high end tables and use highly modified Technics SP-10 MK III while claiming this set-up's with various arms and cartridges superiority. I would be happy to compare if I could. Most likely outcome is that it would be different with the advantages and disadvantages of either, and also a matter of taste and the synergy of the entire chain. At the highest level I believe you have to match everything, including turntable to speakers. The system should work in complete oneness. This would take enormous effort, but that's the only way. Science is science but art goes beyond it.
As I said, according to Ralph everyone with good hearing and sense should go after the Technics and Triplanar arm. And don't forget about Atma-Sphere amps and Classic Audio speakers. Everything should be wired with Mogami cables, of course. That's the current state of the art. Yeah, that's how you lose competition not win.
Ralph, though you express your own opinion, I think that you misinform
some people. You did say that there were many tables that you had not
heard. Why would you choose the Technics before auditioning all of the
top tables? And tonearms. And cartridges.
I base a lot of my assessments on an LP that I recorded (Canto General- using two different tape machines, an Otari and a modified Ampex 354 tube machine). (FWIW I feel that the Technics needs a different platter pad and plinth to really show its stuff).
Since I was there and have the master tapes, I have a pretty good idea of what the LP is supposed to sound like. I've heard plenty of 'tables; the closest I've heard that does Canto General properly has been the Technics SP-10 MkIII equipped with the Triplanar 12" arm (of all the arms I've auditioned, the Triplanar is one of the very few that gets everything right). I've found that the cartridge choice is less important if the arm tracks the cartridge properly and the phono preamp is stable.
I do concede that when I see a machine that ignores what I see as basic engineering principles with regard to playback, that I will be prejudiced about that machine. So I am far less likely to even audition it. I've learned that from using about 30 different machines at shows. Its not worth the frustration of getting things to sound right if the 'table isn't based on sound engineering.
Interesting thread. We all know table/arm combo's will sound different. I liken it to global climate change. We all know its going on but it is difficult if not impossible to distinctly say why. There are a lot of factors. I tend to like the high mass tables with air bearings in both the platter and arm as i "think" this helps isolate or protect against sound effects from non-groove sources. How much is caused by what mechanism but every link along the chain from the source (ie groove) to the speaker impacts. Even the wire choice on a moving coil is touted as having an impact on the sound. I tend to agree with the crux of many of the responses in that vibrations caused by a variety of sources will impact the sound. I know that bearing induced sound from my old Michell occurred and changed as i tried different bearing types and oil types. Even the air bearing system will have a faint sound, though much less than any other table i have heard, as i rotate the platter as even with these there still is a centering pin that does provide some contact from platter to the table base. I do also agree in keeping the table if possible in a separate room from the speakers. is this a huge impact, not sure, but i do it primarily to keep my electronics in a more controlled environment. Obviously these are just my opinions and not based on scientific measurement but rather from 40 years in the hobby with many different tables
I would think that would make for a noticeable improvement. Also, don't misunderstand, as I think the Technics are excellent and great value too. I just think this whole w&f measurement thing is way overblown. Maybe I am biased as I had some woeful experiences with direct drive Denons from the 70s and 80s that were a hollowed out grey sounding mess.
If direct drive was obviously the best design approach not many turntable makers would stubbornly continue with the belt drive. Clearly, the situation is much more complex. Ralph, though you express your own opinion, I think that you misinform some people. You did say that there were many tables that you had not heard. Why would you choose the Technics before auditioning all of the top tables? And tonearms. And cartridges. I don't have an expertise to voice my opinion and I would certainly not rush when choosing one or another. Intuitively, that's what I would expect from great belt drive design - quietness and sophistication. I don't need it for jazzrock but I do for the rest I care to listen to.
@anvil_turntables I have ordered a new bearing for my Technics, I took your suggestion and went for the sapphire-ceramic bearing. This will be my last upgrade. The next upgrade will be a new turntable of some kind.
In my opinion, there is a certain "musicality" that's missing in many direct drives. Inner detail, densely woven layered imagery, finesse etc. I would call them macro machines as they get a lot of the big things right, but miss out on the subtleties that make an exceptional table. One reason for this is they are NOT necessarily more speed stable than belt drives. My tables in particular often produce less wow flutter and drift. Coupling a motor to the platter, in my estimation is a compromised design. Modifying them and adding a good match may produce a better result, and I have not heard the modded tables, and of course variables like the room matter too. Also, achieving the lowest possible w&f does NOT automatically make for a good sound. Other design criteria are just as important. Just my opinion
I'll take the new Continuum Obsidian, you know, the one with the mag lev isolated platter with huge, and I mean huge bearing. Also vibration isolation system for the tonearm. You guys can fight over the rest of them. And I would definitely use the Audio Technica wet playing system.
You guys run and sell your Comtinuums, Walkers, TechDases, Kronoses etc. real quick. They are not as good as Technics. And don’t argue, just do while you can still get a good price. Yeah, Rockport too. I am not talking about 100th generation copy of the master on junk tape. There are much more advantages than soundstage. But it should be top deck in top condition.
Would love to hear the differences on the above 3 turntables you liked.
You have direct drive and a heavy platter with 3 motors and lighter
platter with 1 papst motor.
I would like to hear about the tone, body, decay, attack, pitch, and separation of instruments.
I'm not sure I would characterize it quite that way...
Its important to understand that I've not heard all these side by side. At least all the 'tables mentioned had the same arm installed- the 12" Triplanar.
The best so far has been the Technics SP-10 MkIII. It came the closest to tape in the regard that there was absolutely no shimmer in the sound stage- something that is hard to describe until you hear it.
The SL-1200GAE was really similar. I've not heard it with the stock arm.
The model 208 is next- it is less speed stable, but does have a good solid plinth that is pretty dead and a very dead platter. The Kuzma was very similar but its plinth is not as dead. In addition if I had to guess I would say its drive simply is not as robust- it takes longer to get up to speed and the speed drifts more with stylus drag (but to be clear, not by much at all- its an excellent machine).
We've had tape in our room at shows. I've heard the 'tables above outperform the tape on the same titles; since some of those were analog sources, its led me to believe that we are in a period where lots of titles are showing up on half track 15ips 10.5" reels that don't have the provenance they need to actually outperform the LP- IOW, the LP is significantly closer to the master than the tape.
I found the KAB upgrade kits to be very educational in terms of how each upgrade impacts sound quality of the Technics. That is why I chose a Technics SL-1210M5G as my second turntable. I wanted to understand what affects sound quality for a turntable.
There was a thread years ago about recordings from vinyl to half track high-end deck sounding in some respect better than the record. There were a lot of arguments from both sides. I think, tape has more fluidity and continuity, it also sounds bigger with more powerful propulsion. Few audiophiles will openly admit that their super set-ups don't have the best source existing. I don't have any direct to disc records, but to compare you need to have both tape and record of the same recording. Someone must've done it. So, all great turntables should sound similar, not the same - that's impossible - but very similar. Just as everything else, perhaps, except speakers ?
Are you really serious? Placing everything but the speakers in a different room is ludicrous and extremely impractical. Actually, I am sorry to have even responded. Please relocate to planet earth.
Would love to hear the differences on the above 3 turntables you liked. You have direct drive and a heavy platter with 3 motors and lighter platter with 1 papst motor.
I would like to hear about the tone, body, decay, attack, pitch, and separation of instruments.
Ralph, would you name those turntables you mentioned that were competent and sounded similar ? I know, I know, you don't agree aloud that vinyl is inferior to tape medium. Theoretically, maybe not but in reality..
Kuzma Reference, Atma-Sphere 208, Technics SL1200 GAE with Triplanar arm, Technics SP-10MkIII with 12" Triplanar arm. I've heard a much longer list that I don't like and even longer than that are the ones I've simply not heard.
In addition to a solid plinth a robust drive seems to be really important to prevent shimmer in the soundstage. That is why the Lenco, Garrard 301s and some of the early Thorens have a following.
Regarding the tape/LP thing... Direct to Disc is really the only way for vinyl to really show off what it can do. So practically speaking, a tape with good proven provenance is likely to sound better... So in practice on this point I think we are in agreement. I mentioned that provenance thing because it appears that there are a lot of tapes out there that are questionable- its a bit of the Old Wild West on ebay for that stuff right now!
Just interesting reading from a fellow enthusiast and turntable designer. Hope some insight can be gained and either confirm or refute presumptions, assumptions, and the like. Happy Listening!
Visited both of your links this morning. Again, I appreciate your solid information. Much food for thought here. Will definitely help and effect my future decision.
"Most turntables from medium to high end have a vibration suppression system built into the unit."
The trouble is when turntables do have some sort of vibration ISOLATION system built in, such as spring system, the built-in isolation system is not nearly as effective as a very competent outboard isolation system. The spring rates of the on board spring systems are just not as low as they should be to be effective. Obviously, the cartridge and tonearm are designed with very low resonant frequencies, which is intended to suppress acoustic vibration, but are still susceptible to very low seismic type vibration. While damping and resonance control for turntables might be issues, they are not substitutes for vibration isolation. Furthermore, some damping techniques are more effective than others. There’s a damping gap. 😳
Placing the turntable ANDelectronics in an adjoining room us the best. The only long wires needed are for the speakers. Of coyrse, tgen yih lose the awe factor of showing off your stuff, but for me it is about the music, not the show.
Ralph, would you name those turntables you mentioned that were competent and sounded similar ? I know, I know, you don't agree aloud that vinyl is inferior to tape medium. Theoretically, maybe not but in reality..
Most turntables from medium to high end have a vibration suppression system built into the unit. What I see as being the ultimate difference in turntable sound is the cartridge you select. The cartridge actually reads the vinyl and transmits sound to your integrated amplifier, preamp or receiver. Looking for better sound? Try auditioning better quality styluses.
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