I've been around audio my entire life. I'm 45 and I bought a decent Technics system when I was 12 with my paper route money. Genesis speakers built in New England which were actually pretty darned good. I would spin vinyl every single day to the point it drive my parents crazy. My buddies father had a McIntosh system that I was in love with and he was allowed to play it. It was haunting for me to hear his fathers system.
Fast forward 28 years later and I'm perplexed at the hatred I see posted online about McIntosh. Is it really that bad or is everyone upset that McIntosh is so successful? It doesn't make sense to me that the resale value is the best in the business yet audiophiles bash them. I personally have always loved their gear and sound. I don't own any, and probably never will. Still, I just don't get it. I've always admired McIntosh. Looks aside, I always enjoyed the music. Can someone tell me that they're junk or do you just not like the presentation?
I have owned MA7000, MC452, MC601's, C50, C2300, and C500. Although when I had it, it was a pleasure listening to them and they look good. I recently had a friend loaned me a stereo 300w Bryston 4B SST2 to try out, and to my experience it worked out better than the C500 & MC601's. To me the Bryston has a better control on the bottom vs the Mc, and also I get better bloom on the mid compared to Mc. My final assessment is, Mc sound is little mushy. I was really blowned away that I would preferred the little stereo Bryston 4B SST2 over my Mc601's. My best advice to all is to audition different gear in your home before purchase, and don't let looks clouds your judgement.. Just my 2c
Donjr, as always, there is seldom if ever a consensus on McIntosh or any other audiophile discussion. My feeling is that if McIntosh changed their business model, the perception of audiophiles would change. However, it would no longer be McIntosh. But that is what it would take to garner more respect in the audiophile community (ie. an upgrade to higher end parts quality and a change in some of their design approach) This would also mean price increases. I have owned one McIntosh piece.
It's about vibe and feel...some Harleys are retro-beautiful but I don't like the riding style (tailbone sitting) personally, but so what? I'm sure people think my Bonneville is lame...but I love it. McIntosh has had GREAT reviews of some tube amps recently and although I prefer my Jolida (only because I own it, it sounds good, and the vibe...the vibe...) I think their designs look great, although I bet they don't care what I think. I have over 60 watches of many types and they're all fun...Rolex is an amazing brand in spite of my not having one (an old "red letter" Submariner in on my "want list") and mechanical watches are just a cool vibe if, like me, you give a damn about 'em. Somebody could argue that a Valjoux 7750 watch movement exploded and removed all their wrist hair and I'd still enjoy mine...although most people really don't care about my little hobbies...*sigh*...
Audiozen, For once, I almost agree with you. Yes, they don't use boutique parts and the priciest casework, but then they are only a fraction of the price of the brands that you mention. I recently updated my old Mac 2105 amp with new speaker terminals, input jacks and IEC input. The old stuff was dated and pathetic by today's standards. That said, even in it's older condition, it sounded far more like real music than the Pass Labs X250.5 that I thought I had to have. I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. So in the end, talk is talk, and as it is with most controversial topics, there will always be someone like Paladin giving an opinion that is based on an opinion. To each his own, and let's remember that it's about music, not brand names.
MAC's lower priced intergrateds 6300/6600 are poor sounding when considering cost. My Valve Audio Predator destroys both models. I bet a properly working NAD S300(<$1K used) would crush these as well! Reliabilty of their cd players/transports has also been an issue. Another factor is the smug brainwashed loyalty of many owners.
I've done (insert various high-end watches and motorcycles here). Currently have a good watch for a beach environment, after others leaked or took 12+ months for regular service. A Harley (second one) again mostly due to lousy service on BMW, Aprilia, Ducati, Triumph and others. (Don't flame me just yet, I'll give you more reasons)
Don't see any manufacturer as being "everybody's everything". I've had 3 pieces in 40 years come into my system only to be pulled within days: A Mac AV processor, an Onyx 300b and a Supratek Cabernet. The Onyx sounded like it had a sock stuffed in it. Mick never could get QC together and I've heard good Supratek: I got a lousy one. The Mac was one of the grainiest pre-amps I've heard.
On the other hand, I heard their KT-88 integrated and thought it sounded fantastic on K horns...not my cup of tea, but fun. I hear the MAC stuff almost every week-end at local dealer and most of it sounds really good. My system is low powered, SE-OTL and philosophically different from Mac's concepts, though.
My opinion: (you know what they say about that...) most companies make good or better components. Get rid of the ones that sound bad or you otherwise don't want. I even got rid of a couple because I no longer wanted a piece in my system from a company or person I had an issue with (I know, resentment sometimes makes me do less than rational things).
On the other hand "Are are motorcycles, watches over $10 or high end audio rational?" is another question...one my wife often asks...
You want to spend a ton of hard-earned-bucks on gear only to be dissed by the folks who took your money, try Levinson or EAR: I've never had manufacturers of ANY product cop an attitude like Levinson (black hole service dept from hell) or EAR's Paravincini (who personally emailed and berated me) when I was trying to get a broken proprietary piece replaced at my expense on one of his power amps. When these items were finally fixed, I sold them (never to return) and purchased other gear from manufacturers who I felt deserved my money/loyalty.
MAC is stand-up, classic, non-fussy gear with good service and flashes of (high-priced) brilliance that chooses to market to the carriage trade, not the state of the art or the bleeding edge of unreliability.
Jeez, with prices like they are in the high-end, MAC looks pretty reasonable in comparison, esp (1) if you want it and (2) it sounds good to you. You know it may not be the latest and greatest, but it'll last and have back-up long after a lot of the other guys are gone or in the shop (again). I guess that's my point. Others may have other priorities.
Now there, aren't you glad you waited? Flame away...
Schubert, your statement was hilarious.... I had never own MC, I don't think I will ever will, I don't like show off gear, I rather like companies that spend their money into parts not on statement look, ironically most of non audiophiles I know when someone refer you as an audio guy everyone said oh you must have Mcintosh oh you have to go to their factory with all the bikers on summer tour. Not for me, I will pass on that one.....but I will respect MC owners is all subjective I guess.
Because most MAC is sold to rich docs and dentists who use it to play Frank Sinatra which makes us poorer audiopiles both jealous and disgusted. A perfect storm of righteous indignation.
Frank McIntosh and Gordon Gow both died around 1990 and '91 and were partner's since their first amp they designed together in 1949, the 50W-1. Since their death the company has been bought and sold several time's. Their peak glory day's were during the 1950's and 60's. One example why their quality is not up to the very best is their standard copper glass circuit board's in all their component's. You won't find exotic, very expensive, fluorocarbon resin or teflon or polysulfon circuit board's which have much greater and lower noise level's, as well as the very best caps, transistor's, and resistor's on the market typically found in products such as FM Acoustics, Accuphase, Luxman, and the absolutely spectacular components from Tidal Audio and what is critically considered the world's finest solid state preamp from Robert Koda, the K-10. A masterpiece. McIntosh make's a good product but it is not the ultimate high end since they have alway's provided a product that appeal's to upper middle class income's.
Was in the biz back in the day, sold SME, Ariston, Dynavector, Accustat, H-K, Hafler, Crown, Rogers & more. Had a ton of it all in my home, and auditioned Threshold, Krell, Levinson, Logan, Snell, Magnepan, Grace, AKG, Empire, Conrad Johnson, Koetsu, Revox, B&O... List is endless. Boils down to perceived value and what your ears like.
Today, almost all my stuff is McIntosh with a few leftovers that can't readily be replaced for less than what I consider to be stupid money. From my perspective, you can spend a lot more money, but you can't get significantly better than Mc. It does what it does, well and without hassle. Are compromises made? Sure, but then everything in life is a compromise and the ones McIntosh makes work for me.
To expound on the matter, I was once told by a jeweler that there are only two manufacturers of digital quartz movements. You can pay 800.00 if you choose, or you can pay 2.00. Either way you get the same movement. SOTA tech is just that, no less.
However, Rolex has it's place and it is in fact on top with the best. Just take a look at any movement. You don't have to be an expert to tell. They're beautiful.
I've owned an MX113 tuner/pre in good shape and was not impressed though.
1. I have owned 4 different pieces of Mcintosh equipment (MR67, MR80, C28,7083). The problem with Mcintosh is their inconsistant sonic performance from unit to unit. Mcintosh makes some electronics that sound superb (MC275/MA275/MC2301) and some pieces that sound like sonic turds (Mcintosh 1700/1900/4280 receivers, MCD7000 CD player, MC2KW Amplifier. The company needs to listen and benchmark its equipment before releasing it to the public. If the product isn't the best that can be made at a specific price point then Mcintosh should not put their name on the product.
2. By the way, Mcintosh equipment is not overpriced (in today's marketplace) and in some cases their products are underpriced. You just have to listen closely before you buy a piece of Mcintosh gear.
"I have been into audio for more than 50 years & have never had a single piece of Mac equipment in any of my systems."
Paladin, Since you admit that you have never owned a piece, how would you be qualified to make a blanket judgement on their equipment? I sell Rolex every day, as well as Audemars Piguet and Breguet. As far as exclusivity and design value is concerned, the latter two beat Rolex hands down, but in the end, they all tell time, and as we also know, a Seiko quartz is more accurate than any of them.
Nothing against McIntosh here. Had a MD7007 CD player that sounded pretty darn good, and I have an MR 78 tuner that sounds exceptional.
Harley's underperform? I think not. What are you comparing them to, crotch rockets? I don't think Harley owners give a hoot about going any faster. Had a '92 Low Rider, more fun going 40 mph on that bike then any of my crotch rockets I had at 80 mph
It really makes me laugh when people say that McIntosh is overpriced. Overpriced in comparison to what? Other competing brands can be outlandishly expensive, and although I'm not saying that Mac is on top of the heap sonically, it's best offerings are very good, and far less expensive than the very top players. As far as them being "junk" sonically or otherwise, I think that professional and consumer response has finally clarified that issue. As usual, they are one of the available flavors. Some will love them, some will not. One thing that is getting really tiresome though is the comparison to Harley Davidson. They aren't noisy or unreliable.
As a multiple Harley owner, I'll join in on the bashing ...obscenely overpriced and they take a lot of work and $ to maintain, but in all fairness, the quality has improved with each generation introduced.
"When you're big, and flashy, you're a target." I think Viridian is dead on. I don't own Mcintosh gear, but I like that they have stayed committed to their original design principles. (And I do like the sound of a Mcintosh system).
Agreed. Cadillacs and pain in behind are synonyms. Coca Cola is good to get rid of corrosion, but not digestion. Most Harleys are way overpriced and poor performers indeed.
These items as well as Mcintosh are more of a culture thing than quality.
Mcintosh still have a great quality components that are somewhat overpriced.
IMHO - McIntosh is merely a highly recognized brand due to branding & not sound - Same as Rolex is in watches. People recognize a Rolex - but certainly not in the top ten of watchmaking. I have been into audio for more than 50 years & have never had a single piece of Mac equipment in any of my systems. As a watch dealer - I do on occasion deal with Rolex as you have to give the people what they want. I honestly believe that both McIntosh & Rolex are overpriced for what you are getting, but they both hold their value on the pre-owned market.
People mostly trash Harleys because they are (way) over-priced, under-performing driveway candy. Nowadays, Cadillacs are very nicely built and perform quite well. And McIntosh has always been very well-built gear that holds its value.
And it's not "Coka-Cola", it's "Coca-Cola", because of the "cocaine" connection...
Donjr - I also like McIntosh gear. Though the years of being on the merry-go-round of equipment by various manufacturers, I regret the Mc gear I sold. In my experience it is well-made, robust both mechanically and electrically, nice to look at, sounds good, and maintains it's value. Let the people who beat it up say what they want, but it always has a following of people who like it (me included).
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
