Precisely, Timrhu, Precisely!
:-) |
Frankly, I don't know how to give an honest answer when the discussion is whether BS argument A is better than BS argument B! One would have to eliminate the BS first to see the real answer. How can one do that????
Spatialking Great post, the whole post actually. Imagine the amount of work it would take to refute all the "BS." It would be like a full time job. |
I became a member in 2006; I am also 59 years old. One reason I don't post as much is my system is stable. After years of listening, I know what I like so I keep it. I read posts but I don't post very often now. But, I have been known to change my mind, so who knows?
Another reason are all the ones stated above; they are all valid! I'd spring for two JC-1's to replace my Class D amps if the economy was 10x better than it is.
I am also an Analog Circuit designer; I've been designing audio stuff for a long time now. So, a lot of questions that are often asked I simply ignore since my viewpoint is quite different than most of the posters who usually answer. I'd rather let them banter back and forth - an honest factual answer in this case would only destroy the fun!
The last reason I post less often is I find I am sick of the BS in most audio ads - and the BS hasn't changed in the decades since I started in audio. Audiophiles end up being the victims most of the time, which I find disheartening. I use the word "most" here, not all ads or companies BS and there are numerous honest companies out there. But I do believe they are not the majority in terms of ranking by annual sales. Frankly, I don't know how to give an honest answer when the discussion is whether BS argument A is better than BS argument B! One would have to eliminate the BS first to see the real answer. How can one do that???? |
BTW, Albert, I'm just having fun with not being on your list. I see a lot of familiar names on this thread, yours among them. Thanks for the chat everyone. That's the trouble with getting old, I can't remember all the members that have gone missing :^). I agree with comment about occasional lack of manners. Still, it's pretty civil at Audiogon compared to other places. I still learn from member posts, even after all these years. I also enjoy reading about system upgrades and component testing by people here. |
Why don't I post any more? Because Albert didn't include me on his list of missing members. :-(
While apparently not very memorable, I did originally log onto A'gon in 2000 and was an active member for a few years, then went into lurk mode. I reappeared for awhile in 2008 before going back to lurking.
There are four main reasons for the change in my participation level and three of them have already been touched on:
* My system is made up of components that are all well known and that have been thoroughly discussed. Not much new to be learned about them, nor is there a need to change anything.
* The downturn in the economy limited my purchases of all types, especially audio equipment. Putting together a new system a few years ago led to my becoming active for awhile, then the next point kicked in.
* There has been a shift in acceptable "manners" on Internet forums in general. These days I post very little on the Internet as arguing over opinions is a losing proposition.
* But the biggest reason is that the posters here have already taught me everything there is to know about audio gear. ;-) OK, so there's only three reasons...
Seriously, I lurk, swinging by once or twice a week to see what's shaking and to stay on top of what's new in the market. Occasionally I'll pick up a new tip on new music or a tweak to try. I also lied about not wanting to change anything. If an Ars Sonum fell into my lap I'd take it.
BTW, Albert, I'm just having fun with not being on your list. I see a lot of familiar names on this thread, yours among them. Thanks for the chat everyone. |
I got my first feedback in 2000, so must have lurked here for awhile before that. Didn't start posting until April 2001.
I used to post more often but it seems like most of the replies I've written lately I just delete, as I don't think it adds anything to the topic, plus at times it's the same old thing...
My reasons are personal but would have to agree with some of the other posts that point to the atmosphere in the forums not being conducive to posting more often. |
|
Ipods, ipads, diversions, kids, cash or lack thereof, time and lack thereof, twitter and all the other internet hash probably have taken some enthusiasm and users away from this site. Anyone with a pulse and a voice can be heard or read on a blog (not necessarily a good thing)...which probably is why the popularity of this site as a place to post diminished?
People still seem to use the site as a place to buy and sell goods...captive audience. I have been out of the country since 2006 and will repatriate this year. I'm very thankful that this site exists with some good information I have been out of touch with audio for 6 years...and man, a lot has changed...especially in regards to server based players, content, etc. |
Agree with Liguy - Too many people these days are unable to distinguish between what they know and what they don't know but have merely chosen to believe. Or they are just repeating what they have read or heard in order to sound knowledgeable. The more this works, the more brazen they become.
Truth be told, many of the older and more experienced members just tire of the repetition and the argumentative assertions of those who have not done their homework.
Engineers really do know more than I do. I know that and respect it. On the other hand, I'm still the world's foremost authority in the matter of my personal preferences, an area where I can well be misguided but never wrong.
For instance, I really do love the sound of my horns, even though there are members who insist I shouldn't. After a time, this sort of boorish behavior discourages participation. |
I am a member from the very early 2000's and post only occasionally now because of all of the know it all's. There are just too many egos here on people who don't know their butts from a hole in the wall. I hold an Electrical Engineering degree and got tired of people criticizing engineers simply because we are engineers and understand the physics behind things a little better than they do. I find it much more refreshing to hang out at DIY Audio and design and build some equipment. Nelson Pass is my hero. |
At the rate its going this thread can be retitled:
Why aren't the older members still alive? |
That is not a fair comparison, 6550c. My first car was a used vw that I bought for $800, and I had to take a loan out on that! :-) |
You hire a limo or rent a car. No need to own. |
Hi Inna, I hope my post did not knock rich people - I am far from a "march on wall St" type. I only knock stereo gear that cost more than a modest priced house, because over that last decade prices have gone way up and sound quality has gone way down, imo. I would really like to know really great sounding speakers for $5K - from what I have listened to in this range, none are even good and most are poor. (I hope you can mention some models and skip BW and other mass produced cheapy brands - I hope you have lived more than that).
"if you live in Manhattan, you don't (really) need a car" -
So, how to you get to your house in the Hamptons ? :) |
Wrong. There is a lot of moderately priced gear even new. But if you are serious about the sound quality you should be prepared to spend a few thousands on stereo. And if someone is just a music lover, this forum is not for those.
Having said that, a few thousands even for used equipment won't buy anything spectacular nor should it.
Also, some audiophiles who have $100k-$200k systems spent decades to get where they are now and save on many other things. They are not rich.
In addition, as an example, if you live in Manhattan you don't need a car so you can spend usual car dollars on stereo. |
It's been at least 10 years since a product came along that really knocked my socks off THAT DIDN'T cost more than my first 4 cars added together. This hobby started to get bad before the economy got bad. About this same time, the industry somewhat turned its back on the diehards and went for the billionares with giant mansons to fill with "whole mansion systems". i think allot of people have left the hobby or lost interest because there is very little to be interested in at this point, imo. |
i think as one ages, one realizes that the value of opinions /recommendations becomes less useful.
Mrtennis Asking for and accepting advice, I agree. Offering or giving advice, not sure about that. |
with age, hopefully, comes wisdom.
i think as one ages, one realizes that the value of opinions /recommendations becomes less useful. |
|
Recommend me.
Whats spinning.
Whats the best.......
I need a cable that does.....
How much should I pay for. |
|
No wonder I've never gone to any of my high school reunions ;^) |
This reads a lot like a high school reunion where a couple of people ask what happened to the ol' clique they used to run with. :-) |
After five years or so I'm less of a poster and more of a reader of the few and far between. As retailing has declined the site has kept curiousity alive and led me to get out more often to the shows as a hedge against forum hyperbole and magazine reviews. If the hobby is a learning experience, eventually one's system evolves toward an endpoint, which makes posting less urgent. |
The list is inherently going to be incomplete, as we will never be able to remember everyone on the first (or third) pass.
I'll add Eldragon this go 'round, though he occasionally pops up here. |
Yes, cencorship gets on my nerves too. Global fear and paranoia show themselves here as well. |
Good call there MJ on Mr. Lyons, one of my old faves for sure. If memory serves, I believe I may have been the first member to respond to him on the occasion of his first contribution to a thread.
Anyway, speaking for myself, as much as anything I think it's that I got the novelty of conversing and posting online out of my system (in my case thanks almost entirely to Audiogon), and went back to using that time for other things, including listening to more music. |
Not much "new" left to discover these days.......... |
I'm surprised to see no mention of TWL. He stood as one of the most interesting and pioneering individuals I met through this site. Is he still camping in Tennessee?
One of the reasons I tire of reading this stuff is the perpetual emphasis in brands. Audio theory, practices and principles tend to lead us away from endless mention of companies which have not grown along with us.
Many long time users have gotten off the highway and cannot any longer communicate successfully with those who still have their noses buried in TAS and Stereopile.
Censorship is very discouraging also. It seems random at best and uneven otherwise. |
|
perhaps, older people do not suffer fools, gladly.
some people have more patience for tolerating presumptuous opinions without the facts to back them up. |
I agree that people move on and often have nothing more to say than what has been said. You move on because of other interests and focuses in your life, a pretty normal process I would venture. Some come back, like I have over the past year or so after my interests in the audio side of the hobby was renewed again and had more time because of the economy.
In any case I do believe the open dialogue that was permitted in the early years, as others have noted lent itself a certain flavor that has been lost. Part of it was the relative newness of internet communication. Of course the moderators had their hands full in drawing the lines and how to control the site along with lacking the resources early on, I would guess. When they realized the potential to make money they were pretty much compelled to control the discussion forums to limit some of the contentious that sometimes developed and protecting themselves from potential financial liability. From that point on the site became a bit more controlled and a bit more bland IMO. Having said that there are always newcomers that fill in for those that have left generally adding a great deal of fresh perspective on audio matters and of course the new guys always wanting to know what the "best" is, me too for what its worth and I HEAR you TPReaves.:)
Today this site is primarly a place to buy and sell gear in a safe manner. I don't know if the present proprietors envisioned it as to what it has become but I would certainly venture that they found out it was a pretty good business idea and overall they've done an admirable job! |
Products change but principles not so much.
Not much new ground broken relating to principles of good sound these days that probably have not been hashed through to death prior.
Maybe more so with digital audio where the technology is still evolving rapidly. Less so with analog technology which does not change all that much anymore in comparison.
New products come out all the time still though, so there is new information to be discussed and honed relating to specific products.
So together I suspect that as most settle into contentment with what they have, activity on A'gon tends to lessen.
If you are in the market for or even just curious about new stuff or looking to sell, then not so much.
Also I have to say that this is a very static site that does not change much in appearance nor features compared to many sites. Innovation does not seem to be a big consideration, FBOFW. Perhaps that contributes to people losing interest over time? |
Tpreaves. I love that answer you've been putting in the "What's the best" threads. Very true.
I'm no surprised members stop posting here after some time. Maybe they have found what they were looking for or achieved a sound with their system that they find acceptable. I've been here a relatively short time and one thing that has come to really bother me are all the same repetitive questions. Best $1K DAC or best speaker under $XX dollar amount. Please make it stop.
That is what the archives are for. Search there and read up. I've been in other forums where the search capability wasn't there or downright horrible. The searching function here is pretty good. Or use your favorite web search engine. Put your topic and and then add site:forum.audiogon.com after it. Lots of good stuff in the archives will show in your results.
Sometimes I wish moderators would delete those repetitive threads but what can you do.
I also think the arguments that break out in some threads that would make other members want to go away. Some threads really get derailed. I'd love more moderators to delete some of that stuff as well to keep the threads from getting ugly. |
Maybe they got tired of seeing all the "what's the best" questions on a daily basis. Or recently,because of reading my answers to the "what's the best" questions!!!!!! Who knows? :) |
Thanks for the list, Albert!
I compiled a list, but it was woefully short next to yours. I'd like to add Brulee, Gthirteen, Natalie, and Leafs.
Isn't Kelly (Cornfedboy) on the other side of the curtain here at Audiogon? Or, has that relationship run its course?
Carl Eberhart and I stayed in contact for a while, but when his e-mail address changed, I was no longer able to write to him. If anyone can shoot that over to me, I'd appreciate it.
I saw Russ (Rcprince) a month ago, and it looks like I'll see him again in two weeks. He's doing quite well, and still posts here at times. |
Gunbei was a lot of fun! I often think of Lugnut.I remember many on your list. |
See any names you remember and wonder what happened to them? Albert: Yes, although to be fair a few, such as Elizabeth, Russ and Dan, haven't really left from what I can see. But I don't look (lurk?) very often, I was lucky to find this thread. (Also can't forget that crazy diamond Psychicanimal, who I stopped hearing from several years ago.) |
10-02-11: 2chnlben
I miss Sean too Albert. Let's hope he got married, or has a nice girlfriend who preoccupies his time. I hope nothing bad has become of him...or any of the guys from the past.
2chnlben (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) Agreed, Sean was the first that came to mind, we had quite a few conversations via email and phone outside the forums. A bright guy grounded in engineering and electronic principles and pretty much zero BS. There are others, too many to name, but here's a few I have from my list, sorry if it includes some that may still be active or have popped up recently: 1439bhr Abecollins Abstract7 Angela100 Aroc Artemus_5 Asa Avguygeorge Bear Beemer Bmpnyc Bob_bundus Bwhite Caterham1700 Chaskelljr2001 Chazzbo Chelillingworth Cornfedboy Dan2112 Danvetc Dekay Detlof Drewfidelity Drrdiamond Drubin Ed_sawyer Ehider Ejlif Elizabeth Frap Frogman Garfish Glen Grandpad Gregm Gthrush1 Gunbei Jadem6 Jcbtubes Jeffloistarca Jmcgrogan2 Joe_b Justlisten Kirk930 Kthomas Lakefrontroad Megasam Mezmo Nilthepill Ohlala Outlier Patmatt Paulwp Phild Pls1 Raguirre Rayhall Rcprince Rcreations Redkiwi Rgd Rmml Sagger Sattothestars Sc53 Sdcampbell Sean Seandtaylor99 Slawney Stereokarter Stevemcx Subaruguru Sugarbrie Sutts Suzy Tacs Thorty40 Tireguy Tom_nice Tubegroover Vantageaudio See any names you remember and wonder what happened to them? |
Maybe on top of newness gone and economy many just reached their goal or figured its just never perfect so quit fussing? Lets be honest new gear comes and goes but its seldom truely groundbreaking and after alot of exposure you just sort if see the more things change the more they seem the same. |
Gammajo, very well said; I agree with every one of your points.
Mrtennis, I think that the answer to your first two questions is yes; although speaking for myself, choosing not to participate in a thread is not necessarily an indication of a lack of interest. As far as which threads might be of interest to older members, there are many. But as already mentioned, how many more debates about wether cables or fuses make a difference do we need? Or about wether Kind Of Blue is one of the greatest jazz records ever? |
Sorry - correction : Audiophiles, not audiofiles. Last sentence in my last post continues... and during that time focus on exploring new music. |
hi frogman:
ate you implying that many threads are redundant and therefore certain individuals choose not to get involved ?
or, are you suggesting that certain threads are of little interest to older members?
if the latter, what threads do you think would be of interest to older members ? |
I miss Sean too Albert. Let's hope he got married, or has a nice girlfriend who preoccupies his time. I hope nothing bad has become of him...or any of the guys from the past. |
Has it really been twelve years? Amazing. I joined in Feb of 2000, and have been making myself obnoxious, and gotten heat for my posts about the importance of "the live music standard" ever since. I bring this up not to be self-serving, but because it may go to the OP's question.
I have enjoyed this site and this community immensely, and continue to do so. The level of intelligence, knowledge, wit, and generosity of many here is truly amazing and inspiring. I agree that for many of the previously active members the rehashing of the same questions and comments time and time again is tiresome. What I find to be even more important is how
many of the newer (younger?) audiophiles express opinions, and make
observations about audio matters as if they were making an observation
never before made by anyone. They have very little knowledge nor
respect for the history of the hobby. Before there was Audiogon, there was the work of folks like JGH, HP, JN, PHD, JM, and others. I know it is
in vogue to bash audio critics, but these folks were instrumental in creating
a vocabulary for discussing what we do on this site. Perhaps even more
importantly, there was always a very strong sense that it was the music
that mattered. Observations about sound was, more times than not, tied to
intelligent observations about the music; and with actual examples of recordings to boot. Imagine that!
I think this relates to the OP's question because there is only so much we
can say about the "audio" portion of this hobby that hasn't been said a
thousand times before. Music? That's a different matter. It is an endless
font of new discovery. The emphasis should always be the music. That is
what excites many audiophiles the most.
Remember the surveys of great concert halls, and pipe organs of the world in TAS? The very comprehensive articles on the range of the instruments of the orchestra? The interviews with folks like Bill Porter?
Man, I'm showing my age. |
How many old timers would agree with these tenets gleaned from 50 years of experience: Trust your own ears but educate them -enjoy live music often. Listen to as many systems as you can in other people's homes, you will be humbled at the many ways to achieve good sound and make great friends. Well reproduced music is worth the investment as it can be one of the deepest and most enduring pleasures of life, better than cars and other toys, only exceeded by friendships. Don't be afraid to experiment, even moving a speaker an inch can make a difference, yet the art is to not become obsessive. Keep your contacts clean and your relationship with other audiofiles cleaner. Once an awhile take a break of a year or more from equipment changes and dur |
Did want to make a point. There may be newer members who, while new to the site have some wisdom about stuff too. For example, I have been on Audiogon since 2005. But my journey with music started with studying piano in 1957 (54 years ago), then around 1960 being blown away by Leonard Bernstein live with the NY Philharmonic playing a Shubert concerto program in Avery Fisher Hall.
As a result my brother, an eventual electrical engineer, and I (mainly the listening tester)took the guts out of an old Strongberg Carlson console and replaced with Heath Kit and other hand built parts, resulting in a kick ass stereo that the whole family enjoyed.
After many years with classical and my brothers' 50's rock/pop collection, my first 45 purchase was Little Eva "Locomotion". Then in college, friends started returning from Vietnam with exotic brands such as Sansui and the race was on for absolute sound. |
I don't get on very often. I guess I have no opinions or my interest lies elsewhere.
Shubertmaniac People come and people go. But I think the answer lies in your situation. Repetitive threads, inane debates over unanswerable questions, heavy handed moderation and just plain stupid questions get tiresome after the newness wears off. Interesting to see some resurfacing. |
I'm still here (to a greatly reduced degree -- credit burn-out), and I still listen to plenty of 60's "garage" rock (including the more obscure, largely local type -- not what the respondents to your thread thought was garage-band music). Something which, to address your intermediate implied question, not many audiophiles seem to do (probably because it's often the essence of low-fi -- their loss). |
Albert I have just spoken and traded emails with Sean in the last few weeks. Sometimes life gets in the way of audio. Sean was very helpful in my trying to set up a vintage Ohm F system. He has a great knowledge base and has been generous with his time.
|
