I was just curious why more home systems don't utilize active monitors from hi-end manufacturers. Dynaudio, Focal, PMC and Genelec to name a few seem to have very high value offerings that, on the surface, appear taylor made for a simple system. Just add a cd player with volume and balanced outs or a hi-end dac connected to a music server. Pros and cons are appreciated. A home consumer version seems to have already made it to market in the NHT XDs system. I haven't heard the NHT system and would appreciate your comments.
I must admit I'm afraid to ask you the time for fear of discovering how a watch works.
I am an Engineer and also studied heavily Physics at College ...fortunately I took a great job rather than the PHD scholarship in my final year....I might never have escaped academia and probably would never have been able to afford a hi-fi hobby if I had stayed there!
Opening things up, reading text books, and trying to understand how things work in every detail is what Engineers and Physicists tend to do. Of course, understandably, it makes most people YAWN and turn away. So go ahead and YAWN!
Thomas Dolby "She Blinded me with Science" seems to capture the Jekyl and Hyde personality that Engineer's must struggle with all the time; on one hand deeply feeling the emotion (in this case music) yet on the flip side (get pencils and calculator out) it is all just tubes and wires, biology, geometry, machinery...
"Good heavens Miss Sakamoto - you're beautiful!" I - I don't believe it! There she goes again! She's tidied up, and I can't find anything! All my tubes and wires And careful notes And antiquated notions
But! - it's poetry in motion And when she turned her eyes to me As deep as any ocean As sweet as any harmony Mmm - but she blinded me with science
Thanks for the reply and I appreciate the answer. Its all beginning to make some sense and the case for actives at least dictates further exploration.
I must admit I'm afraid to ask you the time for fear of discovering how a watch works. For instance, where is the one guy in the world with the absolute reference gear that measures a true and accurate second? Do you think we can get THAT guy to fix IMD and Jitter? LOL. Peace.
IMD just does not sound at all like music. It is the complete opposite to harmonic distortion such as you get from mechanical drivers and clipping of tube amps (which can sound pleasant and may be totally indistinguishable from actual music...in short a matter of taste)
IMD happens when you have two signals intermodulating...say for example you have a woofer which is playing a kick drum or bass guitar playing with copious amounts of energy required at 85 Hz. Inevitably any transducer has inertia or mass (recall damping factor) and the amplifier is always fighting to keep the cone in the correct position. The effort placed on the amplifier is taken up by the power supply. Slight variations in power supply voltages due to an over demanding draw on current in the LF may affect reproduction of higher frequencies by the amplifier. (Typical challenges for an amp would be a reflex port designed to increase bass extension that causes a huge and sudden drop in impedance at a specific frequency...worse case might be a port at 85Hz on a small monitor with amazing bass sound or that reviewers describe as sounding like a bigger box speaker!)
The net result is that the simulataneous reproduction of the 85 Hz signal and a 1000 Hz signal (with natural harmonics of 2000 Hz etc and up) may cause the amp to output 1000-85, 1000+85, 1000-(2*85), 1000+(2*85) Hz etc. These sounds are totally unrelated to anything musical and sill stick out like a sore thumb (even if they are 20 db or more below the main signal levels)... at the very least they raise the noise floor but more often then not it means the mid range lacks clarity or sounds positively distorted in extreme cases. Simply turn up your amp until it clips heavily and you get the idea (in the extreme of course).
Better mid-range clarity, less harshness and an effortless sound is how I would describe a reduction in IMD distortion. (It is probably the reason that huge amps with massive power supplies are so popular even with modest speakers. It may also explain why horns are popular and known for dynamics and clarity - as they are generally an easier load on the amp. It may also explain why active subs are popular....by taking the heaviest load away from the main speakers' amplifier you get better clarity in the mids and there is a tendency to play music louder because it sounds sweeter or less harsh even at higher levels.)
Unfortunately, a single driver also suffers from amplifier induced IMD as the amp is still driving the sound across a broad range of frequencies and therefore difficulties caused by an impedance drop or difficult load at some frequencies may cause amplifier strain and IMD distortion in higher, more critical frequencies of the mid range.
However, any speaker that presents a very easy load to the amp such as a compression horn will likely benefit from less IMD.
Speakers with extreme bass extension (tuned reflex ports for bass enhancement) usually provide a difficult amplifier load and simply trade off great bass performance for less mid range clarity. This may explain why some veterans in the audiophile world will shun passive speakers with amazing bass extension down to 20 Hz in favor of a better mid range sound with less bass...there are two camps it seems on this particular point and a single driver limited range speaker is definitely in the camp of prefering better mid range sound at the expense of extremes in sound reproduction. An active three way is essentially like having three single driver speakers except that each of the three drivers operate over a very much narrower frequency range where reproduction may be optimized and where amp stress in music reproduction at certain frequencies (especially LF) will remain constained (through active filters and physical separation from other drivers) in a much narrower band; the end result is that it is much less audible (none of this is rocket science and this has been well known for decades, however, active speakers remain mostly relegated to professional applications so the "cons" continue to out weigh the "pros" in the audiophile world)
What does IMD sound like? Could this be what everyone describes they hear through passive crossovers? Apparently, having an active crossover feeding an amplifier for each driver could provide advantages over the amplifier feeding a passive crossover and then the driver?
Maybe this absence of IMD is what everyone in the ZU Druid/Definition camp describe as being missing from their listening experience. Comments.
Interesting article. I knew that IMD distortion was much lower in active speakers but I did not know that the difference was HUGE (for those who do not know ....IMD or intermodulation distortion is the worst kind of distortion and it has absolutely no relation to the music at all)
Because the amplifiers in an active loudspeaker system are only required to operate over reduced frequency bands the intermodulation distortion products present in a passive system will be dramatically reduced, by typically 20dB, in an active system.
This might be a bit of marketing hype (from ATC). However, the fact that the biggest market in audio, by far, is in passive speakers and separate amps (and ATC sell these to) would suggest this kind of marketing would go against greater sales volumes.
there is a simple answer to this question. a dedicated amp limits freedom of choice. most active speakers use ss amps. i prefer tube amps.
just because a spaeker is designed with an amp does not mean the amp is the "best" match for the speaker. it may be a "good" match, but not suited to a buyer's taste.
Thanks for the brief post Niki (haha), I appreciate the time it took and the thought that went into it. I have spent the last week casually demoing a number of monitors (luckily I live in Southern California and LA has its share of pro audio dealers. None of them have ideal rooms or associated equipment but they are friendly and appear truly interested in helping, albeit the over/under on body piercings apears to be 10.
At the end of the day, i will try a few pair at home to see what's up. I really liked the Genelecs and the Dynaudios but I cant believe the sound coming out of the small enclosures. I will post my findings and will likely be burned at the stake as a witch but there seems to be EXTREME value to be found. Peace.
Ok,this is gonna be a long post ,so i split it in two parts. Part one: Fundamentals:Most people forget,that the only one ,who has clear perception of what real instruments or performers sound alike ,are the Talented musicians/performers + mixing/mastering eingeneers.The professional field has the advantage of comparing ,what is the real instrument/performer sound alike ,right in the next room? Or on the stage...Most of the recordings we hear,are done via expensive equipment(and some Grammy Award recordings have been mixed via generic equipment or headphones).The professionals are not easy to fool.They are looking to price/performance ratio and how the recording translate via the monitors they use.Using active monitors,at some point you will reach the point of diminishing return.For me,that comes at +$3000 (see my second part for comments).Some brands release monitors,that have a lot more to do with their :house sound: that they are ready to admit.Dynaudio,Focal,Adam,Jbl come to mind... They dont use the latest audiophile valve/digital amps,but what they give you, is a:look inside:in the mix/recording.Some people like that,some dont.I,ve seen reports,that active monitors are designed for near field.With over 105 db spl ,i dont see how is that a problem.Move your listening position back,or raise the volume knob(is there for you to use it).Active monitors are used for mixing purpose(in general)on or near mixing console.Mastering usualy is done via fullrange speakers(and some use monitors+sub for that purpose).Do not confuse your room (my included) with professional studios.They employ a lot of bass traping or acoustical treatment in general.Products like Tact,Deqx, are being employed in active monitors like Focal,Genelec,Jbl(different RMC at a price).I,ve always kept my ears and eyes open toward professional field.Many products have come from them.Analog stages,AD/DA converters,monitor controlers,they all come from people,who use them every day.Personal evaluation is very important(for speakers/monitors).The closest Guitar center has some monitors for you to evaluate(not perfect conditions,but is a start).If you prefer :euphonic:sound (as are most of passive monitors/speakers voiced:) you will be better off with passive monitors/towers(at a price).Active monitors are not fullrange capable, but they can work (provided your room permits) with subwoofers.I mentioned certain price/point and after that,you may prefer passive/monitors/speakers.Digital domain.com. Here is Bob Katz(mastering )using Lipinski 707 with Velodyne DD subwoofers(Pass Lab amps on the monitors).Even if you are not critical/audiophile listener,you may become one(using active monitors) if that is your thing. Cons: Yes, they are black boxes,but there are exeptions..Power cords/interconnects- not a problem,unless you are audiophile willing to spend $1000 on them. Part 2:For the last 5 months i,ve been lucky to audition some active monitors in my room 15/24/12.Arcam C-30 sterteo preamp/laptop/Dac-1(loan) Rme Adi-2(loan)/Hag USB.Monitors : Event ASP-8/Dynaudio BM-6 mk2/Yamaha dsp-7.Events are very engaging monitors.Good midrange,strong bass response,wiil work with classical recordings(extension bellow 40 hz),Dynaudios are worthed well above their price range(all speakers are $1000-$1200).Dynudio: loses lower extension to the Events,but has clear midrange and top(compare to Dynaudios at $2000+).Yamaha:strong midrange And top(even via Arcam).I,ve also auditioned Adam-7,in different set up(studio),very good ribbon extension(top),upper midrange very good,lows not prominent.In my room, monitors where at 12 feet+ from my listening position.Best position was at roughly 15 feet,there goes the nearfield design for active monitors...I mentioned my price/performance ratio in the first part... $3ooo.That is the price of what i consider good professional monitors.I was looking to audition the Focal Solo6 monitors, but by pure sheer of luck i,ve heard the Focal Twin6(home set up/Arcam Av-8) and thats why the price/performance figure.They come at $2800 with 2 /150w + 1/100w amps + BE top. Perfect...? No... but i,ve not heard better at that price and no I,m not audiophile.Due to my room set up I think that Focal Solo6 might be even better(2 way at $1800) but I,m going for the Twins. In the end,lets not forget, that all the equipment we use is just that-a tool to REPRODUCE music. I,m sold on the price/performance ratio found in the quality studio monitors... YMMV.It is awlays funny to me to see systems in the :all as sault:thread,housing thousands of dollars of equipment in room without any clear conception of what the limits of your rooms are.Adress your room acoustics first,music will come later.On a different note,if you dont like MUSIC itself(THE LANGUAGE OF THE GODS), no amount of :audiophile: equipment will make it better. Sorry for the long rant, its been a long day(week/month),but i,ll say this:give me quality professional tools(heads up-Cranesong Avocet monitor controller/DAC) + active monitors above certain price and i,ll be happy man. Good luck.
Anyhow this is why: 1) You need a wall outlet for each speaker - any active speaker. 2) As someone mentioned I think, most are voiced to be listened to in the direct field as near or close-field monitors. I do not know how much the designers takes into account reverberant field which makes up 50% or more of the sound you hear. 3) Most are voiced for studio monitoring not home listening. That means they are voiced harsh or bright to hear into the mix. Maybe some people like this voicing, but I don't and I don' think it is a natural sound. A perfect example is Tannoy. The rep told me their active monitors are voiced with an elevated "presence region" ( I think that is what it is called) in the 3khz region. This is so you can hear into the mix. Tannoy voices the identical home speaker to be flat or recessed in this region. Different voicing for different intended use. 4) I did not say ATC's were poorly implemented. I said
"Good concept / bad implementation is the usual problem." the most common problem is how they are implemented, not the basic concept.
5) Cheap amps that are bright and lack harmonics, delicacy, or natural sound as this is unnecessary for studio monitoring. A perfect, and surprising, example were ATC active 20's. The dealer also had the identical passive version. He *did not* want me to hear the passive run with ATC's 300 wpc integrated. He did agree but used lamp cord and whatever to make them worse. But the passives beat the actives because of the better amp. The ATC dealer in Canada verified the same thing. Customers preferred the passive version.
I think active speakers are great and the ATC 100's one of the best speakers I have heard. I even asked the big wheels at Stereophile show in NYC years ago. They thought active was good only for home theater since you don't have to make shelf space for 5+ amps. This is another reason why I like single driver. One driver / one amp = "active speaker". Especially with no x-over or baffle step correction.
I have also heard KRK, Genelec, Dynaudio, Mackie, Truth, Tannoy, and maybe more. The Genelec was the best as far as neutral. the Dynaudio BM5 where spectacular, especially for the price - they blow away the comparable passive and are cheaper all things considered but dark. KRK V6 were nice for the price but I do not like woven cones like kevlar. One thing they all had in common was amazing bass depth (for the size) punch and impact that hardly any passive monitor can match.
I've asked this question before and several months ago Bob Stuart (Meridian) explained it in a way that made the most technical sense. I'm having too much fun tweaking now but I really could see myself one day buying a pair of DSP active speakers and what's done is done.
You need to go bsck earlier in the thread - I list the pros.
Active speakers is not the same as putting a single passive amp in a box. For example the Woofer will be driven by a separate amp of say 275 watts, the mid range is driven with a separate amp of 100 watts and the tweeter is driven by a separate amp of 50 watts.
There is no power loss in a crossover (these get hot). There is way less IMD distortion (the worst kind of distortion and most audible) because different frequency ranges are driven by completely separate circuits instead of one amp connected to as many as three drivers and two crossovers covering 20 to 20,000 Hz (which all interact and feedback into eachother). You can precisely control phase and driver integration way better than using passive cross overs.
There is a difference - it ain't simple moving the external power amp and placing it in the box.
Just a general comment. I can see the advantages of a speaker being designed with a particular amp in mind. However, I fail to see any advantage of housing them in the same cabinet.
So the case to be made is not for the amp and the speakers to come glued together, :-) but for the manufacturers to offer matching sets. In a way, that's what Quad has been doing for a long time.
Samuel33, I define an active speaker system as one that uses active line level crossover circuitry to feed power amplifiers which are then directly connected to the drivers.
I had a pair of ATC active 150's (half again the volume of the large 100's). they were spectacular, but I bought them used unheard, unseen, and they were too large for my room (and my room ain't small....15.25 x 23 x 10). My room doubles as a HD-based 110" home theater, and the sheer size of the 150's was too much for the scale of the room.
ATC active speakers are absolutely audiophile-grade transducers. Their midrange is legendary and they produce microdetail, harmonics and imaging that are out of this world. If I hadn't found great passive speakers in the meantime I would have gone with ATC SCM100ASL's for my mains (and Active 50's for surrounds). One problem: finding large ATC actives used is a pain, but new they are huge$$, even taking into account they cover both amp and speaker budget. The advantages of actives have been discussed here, but are clearly the near-perfect amp-driver integration, the dedicated crossover-amp synergy, and the convenience factors afforded by lack of speaker cables, etc. The results are quite evident; the linearity and "wholeness" of sound is astounding.
I HIGHLY recommend anyone searching for active speakers to go listen to ATC's big boys, the 50's on up. You will have an opinion, no doubt.
I remember hearing a Phillips active speaker 30 years ago and thinking how much easier it would be to have such a speaker. It sounded quite good also. But now they are largely invisible. Other than those on my computer, I cannot remember hearing any in the last 30 years.
I've used Dynaudio, PMC, Tannoy, Paradigm, misc. other active and passive monitors in the studio and for hifi listening. At one time I thought they were a decent idea -- pre-packaged, simple connections, etc.
But... they are in very many cases significantly more expensive when compared to buying separates -- that is, the same speakers in a passive cabinet with high quality outboard amp and cables.
And there is the sound:
Almost always the active speakers are noisy. And I mean quite noticeable hiss and hum, even with no signal being applied. It smacks of cheap electronics and wiring.
Disperson can sometimes be pretty focused, intended for close inspection rather than spread for imaging.
The sound is what it is. Sometimes there will be removable foam port plugs. Or 'tone adjustments' for treble reduction. These are typically a necessary requirement, for many of the ones I have used have often been 'detailed' in the treble to the point of being hyped, and almost unusable in hifi rooms. And the bass can sometimes be unsuitable when trying to drive them to farfield listening levels rather than nearfield mixing levels. At least for my tastes.
Having separate components allows me to make the tonal adjustments through selection rather than being stuck with the pre-packaged sound.
And I don't like being gouged for high prices for possibly 'questionable' quality of electronics that are hidden in a black box.
i run linn espek speakers that are active, but with outboard amps. you get the active advantage, but can upgrade within linn system or use other amps with the proper equipment. the portability factor you like is not there tho. however, the linn system removes the crossover in the speaker making for a truly superior sound.
I am really unsure about your rationale unless you have listened to a number of active monitors (good ones). I'm not talking about bad active monitors, I'm talking about really good ones. Have you seen or heard any good ones. Thanks in advance.
You forgot another really popular option (not on this forum) but Squeezebox into Meridian digital speakers. This is the simplist system.
Most people shy away from the high price of admission for active speakers. They think it is really high but when you look at the expensive speaker cable, amplifier, interconnects, stands/shelfs/isolation/powerconditioning, power cables, and even preamp. Those components will be more expensive than an active system typically, as you move toward a full range system then the two options equal out as the choices get smaller.
The Big ATC's and the active Pass Labs Speakers are pretty impressive.
Hooking up an amp to a speaker doesn't make the speaker active. That's a fairly absurd statement.
Vibration is also not that big an issue. If it were, powered subwoofers wouldn't work. Also, the amp doesn't have to be housed in the speaker, it could be housed separately.
If you can build an excellent speaker, then you can build an excellent power amplifier. For any real audio company designing and building a high quality power amp is a trivial task. There are any number of first rate audio designers who could be hired for the design and there are literally hundreds of electronic manufacturers who can build the product.
As a group audiophiles just don't see a need for active speakers. Based upon some of the above responses I don't believe this bias is based upon any rational reason.
What about vibration between amp and speaker? It's a little hard to keep the vibration out of the amp when it's in the speaker cabinet. Then you have to run power cables to the speakers. maybe not as much an issues if you are already using mono blocks next to your speakers.
I think there intended use in inexpensive home studio's in the near-field where you will not be listening to them an any level that will severely interfere with the amp.
Powered sub woofers have gained some acceptance so we will see what powered speakers does in the future.
I have no interest in them, if that's of any use to you.
Active speakers are a one size fits all option but this hobby doesnt work like that. Also some sound like Pro speakers and many dont like that. An active speakers is really just a speaker with an amp built in, when my VMPS speakers are hooked up to amps they are active too.
Because it isn't about sound or value for money; it's a hobby, so people want to believe that they have arranged for a sublime combination. Audio is an ends/means reversal of epic order.
I've always thought that'd be ideal, especially for music in multiple locations throughout a house... pair of active speakers + Squeezebox in each room, and that way the longest runs of cable are just ethernet.
But aren't most active monitors designed for very near-field? This would seem to limit their appropriateness for home listening.
Personally, I wouldn't want to have to upgrade everything at the same time. With separate pieces, I can update piecemeal any time I find something interesting.
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