Why are audiophiles perceived as being wackos?
It is a well known fact that yellow paint has a lower coefficient of drag hence it's use on race cars. May also be the reason behind B&W's nifty yellow kevlar drivers. But that is beside the point. As for the real point of this thread, why audiophiles are wackos and others with expensive hobbies aren't, re-read Cwlondon's post and stop there. |
Nrchy, I doubt that a NASCAR race driver can experience, as you say, the benefits of "Cryo" treated spark plugs and wires, let alone measure it! It is a common practice in racing to paint something yellow, usually the rear differential because that makes the car go faster. Maybe I should paint my speaker cones yellow and increase the transient response. Salut, Bob P. |
Quadophile You are making the assumption that anyone who buys high end audio gear has to take the time to set it up themselves, work at tweaking it etc. Here in the Big Apple, I know non drinkers who collect wine, non drivers who buy Porsches, and I have at least one ex girlfriend who pays people to DRY HER HAIR every morning. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think concerns about wasting a weekend terminating the ends of speaker cables and tweaking tube traps is what keeps them from rushing out and buying Magneplanars. I have discussed this concept with certain members of this forum, and maintain my stance that high end audio should be no different from any other luxury item, and it is only so because of marketing and sales failure. To review, I respectfully suggest that a $30,000 audio component might best be defined as a "luxury" -- regardless of the owners' underlying enthusiasm or experience with our hobby. But no, for some reason, none of this is luxurious, it's simply "wacko". A few questions for you to ponder: Do poseurs who order "Supple Leather" "tiptronic transmissions" and cup holders in their Porsche 911 Turbos even know what a "heel/toe" downshift is? The London market has one of the highest per capita sales of cabriolet cars and Ferraris and Porsches are everywhere in South Kensington, an area where the it OFTEN RAINS and traffic averages 3 MPH?!?!? But who cares!! ITS A PORSCHE, or a FERRARI, or an ASTON MARTIN. How many Manhattan kitchens, buffed out with $50,000 of Viking ranges, Sub zero fridges, Thermidor Double Convection ovens, and authentic "Boos" butcher block counters never see any more "cooking" by their owners than opening a paper bag of chinese food? MANY, I can assure you. But WHO CARES?! Because the place LOOKS amazing and fills its owner with pride and joy when they reach into their 8 foot stainless steel fridge for a mineral water when their neighbor drops by after her Pilates classes. How many Rolex "Sea Dweller" wearers dive any deeper than their 4 foot deep, "infinity" lap pools? Or indeed swim any deeper than their glass and polished nickel showers? I have one friend who wont even do that because he hates to clean soap out of the clasp?! If you don't believe me, just ask the next Rolex Submariner wearer you see, how often he goes spear fishing or something and see what kind of a look that you get. I have never met Albertporter, but from his posts I consider him to be a leading light in this obsession and a rare individual that is trying to make a change, reaching out to audiophiles and non audiophiles alike and promoting our hobby in a sophisticated and gentlemanly way. Most of the audio industry, however, couldn't market its way out of a paper bag, except perhaps for the snake oil selling sharks who lurk in the shadows, prey on our endless fascination for all of this and who could never build a high quality, long term, repeat business market. Most audio businesses are hopelessly stuck in the old model -- wackos selling to wackos. Or even worse -- eccentric, condescending wackos arrogantly trying to convince affluent non wackos to BECOME wackos. History has proven that trying to incubate audiophiles from American Express Black Cardholders who might wander into your emporium is a lousy business. But year after year after year after year after year, the wacko lemmings trek to CES and stereophile shows, delicately placing a single long stem red rose on top of a mini monitor in an ugly hotel room, perhaps while letting their aesthetically challenged wife or girlfriend pursue her dream of becoming a "model" in their brochure, while at the same time desperately trying to convince fickle, sophisticated and not necessarily even rich enough to buy their product wackos like ourselves that their latest offering "blows away" yesterdays state of the art. It is really, really sad. This - and NOT the publics indifference to expensive, high performance products - is at the root of why most audio salesman don't drive Ferraris and why we are all considered weird. If I sound pissed, it is because I am. Music and audio are wonderful, joyful things that everyone should enjoy and incorporate into their lives. And in the meantime, BOSE and MP3 are taking over the world and moving us in the direction of the dinosaurs, not because they are any good, but because they are marketed by smart, tough businessmen who try to think like their customers -- however uneducated and misguided they might be -- and don't waste time trying to convince Mr and Mrs Rich and Glamourous that they should study up on the finer points of power cables. If a high end audio "businessman" was somehow recruited to become the Chairman of Rolex, he would probably suggest revamping -- better yet perhaps cryoing (?) -- the swiss movements to improve the accuracy of the time 1/10000th of a second -- thereby "blowing away" last years model and competing watch manufacturers and diminishing their trade in value by 80%. Who in their right mind would even THINK of buying a Patek Phillippe ever again, when they improved it even more?!?!? Another great idea -- the audiophile CEO of Rolex could offer their customers seminars and demonstrations on SCUBA diving. Surely this would increase the sales of Submariners and Sea Dwellers when 9 out of 10 of their customers become avid SCUBA enthusiasts. Another essential, he could add disclosure documents inside every Rolex green leather and wood presentation box, explaining that all Rolexes require a "break in" period (typically a day or two longer than the warrantee period) before you should really judge whether or not its cryoed movement keeps time to within 1/10000th of a second. The boys in the returns and accounting departments will surely applaud that one. Well, guess what? It's NOT about the TIME?!?! folks. And it's not about the number of feet that the a Submariner can be submerged under water. It's about STATUS and BRANDING and LUXURY and QUALITY and PERCEIVED VALUE and FUN and STYLE and PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP and KEEPING UP WITH THE ZETA-JONES. Now we wackos know that all of these things can be found by digging into the wonderful and quirky universe of high end audio products, but thanks to the elegant, charismatic geniuses running this industry, the public has NO IDEA and therefore could care less. For years, I have been thinking about giving up my day job to correct this issue in the universe, and would therefore welcome ideas or private emails from any of you who might be interested in the subject or in getting involved. OK, I feel better now. Thank you for your time, thank you for listening and best wishes to all of you. |
Since people are still throwing my name around, I think that I should be allowed to respond. If you go back to my original posting which (as we seem to have forgotten) was about why the general population thinks we are "wackos") I cited belief in the miraculous results of Cryo as the sort of thing that get's us that reputation. My personal beliefs aside, it was the view of the general public to which I referred. I was not starting another Cryo argument. Been there, done that. Perhaps I should have picked another example. "LPs are better than CDs". Most non-audiophiles would agree, but I don't think I could get that one by Albert! Can anyone suggest an audiophile attribute that we all can agree makes us "wackos" in the eyes of others? . |
No Albert, Eldartford is not wrong about "cryo"'s value in high end audio and it is only your opinion that he is wrong. Stating that NASCAR uses a certain tecnology does not validate that technology any more than if BOSE embraced monster wire and that was used to validate the use of of that technology. That was my point. And how did "nationalism" get into this thread? Salut, Bob P. |
Very interesting thread and posts by people, certainly thought provoking. I feel audio is a bit different from say, collecting watches, being interested in cars, boats, etc. I think the difference is that cars, boats and watches are ready made things, you buy them and they are ready to go or wear. Audio is different, its not ready made, you buy it and the actual work starts before you can actually derive full benefits. The work that has to go into audio is that you need to set it up and match everything in your room before you can get full potential from it, sorry full potential is also wrong to say on my part since nobody can really get it right, they may succeed to get it to sound good but not perfect. This extra input required after you buy the stuff is more challenging than just selecting and buying it. There is a lot of hard work that goes into it. This is one thing ordinary people may not want to do. I visit a watch forum, folks there buy watches and than the thing is over after they post their pics and everyone says "beautiful watch" or "awesome watch". The poor guy than starts looking for another watch and again post pics before people start praising the watch all over again. With audio it starts AFTER one buys the stuff. I don't know if I have succeeded in getting my point across or not but I tried. :) |
NASCAR does embrace the technology, regardless of whether you respect that part of the sport or not. So, race people DO CRYO treat spark plugs even if you do not approve of the team, the driver or the country they represent. This began with Eldartford post, If car buffs thought they could increase acceleration by Cryo treating their spark plugs, they would get the same treatment. Since NASCAR does embrace this technology, his comment was wrong just as he is wrong about it's value in high end audio. |
Still, Joe Gibbs Racing doesn't build the ultimate racing motor any more than Bose makes the ultimate speakers. Using NASCAR as validation of techniques used in making "ultimate engines" is not very convincing. Maybe if BMW used "cyro" techniques on the spark plugs of their F1 racing engines that might have more weight with the skeptics! After all, BMW does make the "Ultimate driving machine". Salut, Bob P. |
Your right Bob, Joe Gibbs Racing, like Bose, has been very successful. Joe has won nearly $32,000,000.00 in just over a decade. Not bad for a small shop in the Carolinas. Joe Gibbs |
So now NASCAR, the "Bose" of car racing, is used as the standard for engineering of race cars and motors! Frankly, Albert Porter, I thought that you would at least use F1 racing as a standard. If there were any advantages to "cyro" of spark plugs in F1 motors I think that we would have heard about it! NASCAR is Mid-Fi at best. Salut, Bob P. |
It's taking a slightly different slant on things, but with many of the people that I come across, if they consider me a whacko, then I take that as the kindest compliment. These people are so mainstream and so into the most mundane materialistic elements of life, that I want to be completely separated from them, both by distance and at an emotional level. I pray that these people think me strange as it reaffirms my successful efforts in not being like them. Viva La Whacko! (is whacko masculine or feminine?) |
Interesting link Albert. I'm surprised that there are so many other applications for cryo treating parts. With so many people nay-saying everything to do with the cryo process it's fun to see new uses. I never noticed Albert saying that cryo's sparkplugs were his idea, or something new. Maybe it's all the cranky audiophiles that drive others away. Gotta go, I'm gonna get the sparkplug wires on my motorcycle cryo'd. |
The author of the text I linked to, reported that NASCAR used cryo process for many engine parts, including spark plugs and wires. The writer did not challenge the quality or results of cryo, he simply stated that for HIS OWN engine and budget, he would not go to that extreme. Not surprising as he is a reporter, not Joe Gibbs, building the ultimate race machine. Sdatch, regarding. Why so much negativity? If everything associated with high-end audio is crap why participate in the hobby? Maybe we all need "happy pills". Or one of those intelligent chips... I agree, that's why I spend time answering questions on these forums as well as providing photo coverage (at a financial loss) of all the major audio shows around the world. I think my motives and actions are positive. I do get upset with people that frequent a forum for high end audio and look for opportunity to criticize what they don't understand and don't (themselves) work to make better. |
A few additional comments... Many audiophiles like to collect/trade gear to sample what is out there, either old classics or new cutting edge technology. Sort of like watch collectors...you can only wear one watch at a time, but each is unique! Many audiophiles try to build the "ultimate" system...can't be done! Each 'phile has his own "biases" at to what aspect of fidelity is most important [tight bass, "slam", liquid mid-range, glorious high's, soundstaging, etc.] So a reference system built to please one audiophile might disappoint another audiophile, and vice versa! Some "audiophiles" are just status "goobers", that will put together an expensive system, just for "braggin' rights"! Their expensive systems can sound like s**t, but hey, look at the price tag and "flavor of the month" brand names! Some people can hear, but don't know how to listen! They are unaware of the sonic and fidelity nuances of high quality audio reproduction, and while a $40,000 system may sound somewhat better to them than a $400- Circuit City/Best Buy system, the benefits don't justify the cost. Especially since many people listen to music as background fill. You can get basic transportation for under $15,000, so why would ANYONE spend $50,000+ for a real "driving machine". The ability to appreciate and enjoy applies here as well! |
Albertporter...The link was interesting. However, it remains true that the mechanical parts cited are reasonable to try Cryo treating, but spark plugs, even in YOUR link, are mentioned with skepticism. By the way, what is your definition of "negative". Seems to be "disagrees with Albert". Lighten up! |
Eldartford, why don't you take it up with NASCAR? Your the one that dragged spark plugs into the discussion. I simply posted the data. I have been around NASCAR quite a bit, having done photography for both Joe Gibbs and Interstate Battery. In case your not familiar with Joe's Super Bowl record and the winning automobiles produced at Joe Gibbs Racing, he is a class act and (forgive me) I will accept his word and record over your (usual) negative remarks. |
Albertporter...Cryo is just a more extreme form of heat treatment that has long been used to modify metalurgical properties important to wear of mechanical parts such as those mentioned. That would not be "Wacko". Spark plugs?? Well I suppose that electrode wear might be relevant. But the wires?...no way. |
Being a member here,has given me an outlet. I can chat with members whom have the same value system.---I expect none from the outside to understand, nor do I encourage any understanding.--You know;leading the horse to water___.Now my friend has a 50k "Monster*-Truck--(*pat.pending)--- HE IS wacko--(NOT). He does his thing ,I do mine. I'm sure his truck gives him as much pleasure;---. |
the only hobby i know of built on faith, not fact. faith that a copper wire that costs 2k comes from a different source(perhaps another planet) than one that is a few dollars. faith that the propriatary and licensed technology in all cd players is radically different (the cooler the player is). faith that we are trying to achieve the illusion of a live music performance by ordering the zebrawood finish. faith that all of the home audio pioneers and companies who championed affordible music for the masses are heritics. its no wonder most music lovers think we're readt for the purple kool aid. |
Wildoats you are correct some audiophiles get a certain high from a new piece of equipment,when the high wears off it is back to the drawing board.But after 30 years of doing this you realize you can chase your tail all day so I buy this very expensive equipment try to match it carfully and live with it.But I do demo new products at home as they come out,if it is better than what I got and fits with the system,I make a change. |
I know an audiophile who will tell me about a recent component he just got, a Moon Eclipse cd player for example. He tells me how extraordinary, incredible it sounds. A few days later, or a couple of weeks, he has sold the player on audiogon because he doesn't think it sounds that great anymore, and is telling me how great the new one he got sounds. Uh, what happened? Is he really hearing something great, or is it great because it's new? Mentally, he has convinced himself it will sound great before he even hooks it up. Then when the excitement of "new" is gone, so is the great sound. Sometimes he even listens to a whole song before he is in the back changing tubes, cables, etc. While this is fine with me, different strokes you know, don't you think some people might find him a little strange. |
Audiophiles are percieved as wackos because we spend great sums of money to create music that can be reproduced for a lot less.What non-audiophiles do not know is the feeling of looking at your music collection and bringing any numbers of artists into your room for a thrilling illusion of the event,they do not get the rush.I know I do and the pleasure I get from that is priceless.If they do not understand tough s--t. Robert |
One point I would make is that at least in my middle-class world, it is a mistake to think that most people have *any* hobby comparable to being an audiophile. Most people I know don't collect wine or watches or anything of the sort. They are busy saving for college for their kids, or retirement, or trying to figure out whether they really need two cars or not. So when they hear someone is spending $5,000 or $10,000 to do something that can be done reasonably well for $500, it seems, well, odd to them. |
A lot of people simply don't have the tolerance or patience to understand music. Most people look at a Porsche and get it - it looks cool and goes fast, easy concepts to grasp, and therefore popular. Music itself takes time to grasp, let alone the finer points of imaging, tonal balance, timbre accuracy, etc. Basically, what people don't understand they label as "wacko". And obviously, since we expend so much time, effort, and financial resource on what is perceived to be an unintelligible pastime, we are thought of as "wacko" too. Come on, who spends $1K on a wire? Wackos, that's who... |
I can't say why, but one thing is clear to me. Audiophiles grunt and groan on and on about how music is the thing, and the fact is, there are far more music lovers who are not audiophiles than who are, regardless of their budgets and sound systems. Music love does not demand, or even much repay, high end audio. This hobby fetichizes equipment and n-th degree of perceived sonic (not musical) improvement. That does not mean it is not cool and worthwhile, but it does mean that you should expect it to be for esoteric geeks, and should not be surprised when music lovers find us wierd, and to miss the point. Which we is, and we do. Or rather, given how most audiophile package their osession, it looks like we do. I'm a wine lover, and I can attest that the difference in how good the wine is, between mediocre and really good wine, is huge, just as the difference between how good the difference in sound between mediocre and really good systems is huge. But the difference between how good the music is from the mediocre and really good systems is not very big. But there are similar kinds of excess is wine connoiseurship too, where rarity, pedigree, cachet, prestige, and esoterica are what is really the driving force, but how good the taste of the wine is is given as a lame excuse for all the fuss. There's another relevant parallel too. Wine in wine for wine's sake often gets ripped out of its context (the meal)and placed into another (the tasting, or on its own) in order to show itself off, just as audio in audio for audio's sake get ripped out of its basic context (listening to music)and put into another (listening to this or that particularly well engineered and produced recording, perhaps just a few bars of it, and/or in rapid a/b with some other component of recording), in order to show itself off. If it's music you like, then the extra money and attention are geeky distractions. Not so if what you love is audio. But audiophiles pretend its about music. That's not to say they don't love music, or justify their each next excess on musical grounds; but the moving point is hi fi, not the music that moves one. Compare watches. No watch collector would for a moment justify their time and money expenditure by citing how well their beloved possessions keep time. But audiophiles use the rhetoric of fidelity to *the music*, when it's really mostly about high end sound, which is a different, and I insist, lovely matter. But it's not the same as music. There's a reason musicians rarely have high end, big bucks systems. They here tunes, phrasings, rythms, passion. Audiophiles hear whether this speaker is more plangent than that, whether this amp has more slam than the other, or whether this turntable support gives greater imaging (a total audiophile/recording artifact) than this other one. Don't misunderstand me. I love the audiophile set of aesthetic concerns. But don't confuse them with musical virtues. Those are available on just about any damned playback system in just about any format, as those of you who fell in love with music to trasistor radios, 8 tracks, early CDs or Ipods can attest. |
Before I discovered high end audio for myself, I used to poke fun at this hobby a lot, 2 of my college roomates were into it, mainly because of their dads, and I just could not grasp the concept of $2200 dollar interconnects, separate transporta and DACs, and so forth. Plus, my image of the hobby was very sedate and self-indulgent - rich guys buying lots of pompous gear, lame "audiophile music", and sitting alone in their dedicated listening room. I know now that that was a generaization based on snippets of conversations, and little bits of my roomates' Stereophiles that I skimmed through. There are active aspects of this hobby, such as DIY stuff and music collecting, but I think a lot of people see us as that guy (there's definitely a male bias) in the dark room, in the bath robe, listening to some smooth jazz, scribbling notes about requency response. Now where'd I put that Kenny G CD? Oh it's right here in the pocket of my bath robe - couldn't see it in the dark... |
Hey Eldartford, glad you set those silly folks at NASCAR straight on cryo process. Cryogenic processing is now being used by NASCAR and other racing teams. They have taken advantage of this treatment to reduce wear of their engine components and increase horsepower which are important to their crossing the finish line. Some of the engine components treated include blocks, push rods, valves, camshafts, brake rotors, crankshafts, heads, and even spark plugs and spark plug wires.Cryo |
Most people have no true understanding or passion for music they accept what is shoved down their throats by the radio stations. They are satisfied simple beats and catchy tunes and really do not listen to the little things or take time to think about the fact that music is is about heart and soul.They just cannot understand why someone would be so passionate about listening to music since they really can't hear what we do. |
Because they seek to justify their existance, rather than just existing. I can't beleive there are audiophiles who try to justify their purchases to their friends. What would'philes think of me if I tried to justify the purchase of a $400 bottle of wine, or $700 worth of wallpaper for my 10'x14' office? They do not have the point of reference to be able to understand audiophilia. Or maybe it's just because it sounds too much like pedophile!?! |
Pbb's explanation that "High fidelity is an ersatz", as convenient as it seems, may be a pretty good insight. Re-creating music via high fidelity equipment is rather sort of an ongoing science experiment to which there is no conclusive answer. There is no one definitive solution and all results are highly subjective. Evaluation involves extended and focused listening - and not necessarily to music but to 'sound quality'. How frustrating and cumbersome it must seem! The appeal of a high performance car or a fine wine seems rather straightforward by comparison. There is one audio manufacturer that stands out as breaking the audio = geek rule - Bang & Olufsen. It's a very high prestige product and it's even an instrument of seducing women. But audiophiles are generally not interested in it because it represents poor value in terms of sound quality for the dollar and you can't tinker with it. It is first a work of art and a visual statement. It plays music rather well, too, and can set quite an ambience it the right minimalist space. I think the level of geekiness depends on how obsessive one gets about gear (how much time one spends switching out power cords) - vs. - buying excellent, unobtrusive gear and letting music enrich your life. |
An audiophile is (almost) definable as someone willing to go to great lengths/expenses to achieve improvements in sound quality that are very subtle (compared to, say, the difference between hearing a junk "shelf system" literally on a shelf and hearing the same system properly set up in a correct configuration for actual stereophonic sound reproduction) - and in some cases, frankly, of dubious reality. Moreover, many of us obviously enjoy some sort of element of wackiness, whenever we proudly describe to others these aspects of our system (e.g. my "audiophile grade" electrical outlet). Even if *music* has the universal importance that many audiophiles somewhat optimistically suppose it does, that is obviously not the same thing as *audio* having any importance. For most people, the job of an audio system is simply to produce a *recognizeable tune*. That's it. If they can hear enough to be able to hum along, the audio system is doing its job, and doing it entirely. The concept of doing it better is almost meaningless to them, and so the concept of spending large amounts of time or money to make it better is bound to seem bizarre. In my experience, fairly few people have ever, even one time in their life, used an audio system for its theoretical purpose, to create a *sonic illusion* that you are hearing a musical event in some other acoustic space. I don't know how many would have any sort of "revelation" if they did, but until they do, we can all expect to be thought of as wackos. |
Cwlondon has it correct in that marketing plays a large role in creating wants/needs. Our culture is absolutely inundated with purveyors who influence and anticipate our every need. Material items that were previously uneeded or not even thought about suddenly become necessities! I can just about guarantee you that if a huge marketing campaign equating Dale Earnhardt Jr., Nascar, and beautiful women with high end audio were undertaken the masses would begin to see high end audio as a cachet item, and perhaps a necessary possession. This type of campaign spit out at the masses in endless repetition over many months and years would result in the mass delusion of believeing high end audio as necessary as 4,000 square foot houses, $40,000 cars, $20,000 boats, Budweiser beer, pizza, Pepsi, etc., ad nauseum. If you couldn't afford it now you could certainly aspire to it. Hell, they could even set up mortgage like accounts for those that wanted $100,000 systems, 4 or 5% 30 year loans for stereo equipment. Every house on the block could be shaking from the boom, boom, boom from 30" subwoofers. The sudden realization hits me that perhaps I wouldn't like this world ;-), I think I may have to find another obession! |
Pursuing anything illusory is not good for you ,me, or society.Pbb knows what any awakened person knows which is...it's all a dream and something inside us wants real and can't figure out how to get it so we keep trading this for that caught in a trap.This site serves as a comisseration station for justification.The entire human race is filled with such outposts.It is in our nature but not in our best interest...like war,overpopulating or whatever you can think of.Drinking is fun too but overdone causes irreperable damage.By its very nature audiophiles are excess prone.It is built in to the paradigm for which it must thrive and feed off of us. |
