Who says studio monitors are "cold and analytical"?
Who says studio monitors are "cold and analytical"? Does that mean audiophile speakers are warm/colored and distorted? If Studio Monitors main goal is low distortion, does that mean low distortion is not something audiophiles want? They want what, high distortion? "Pretty" sounding distortion? Or find pretty sounding speakers that make bad recordings sound really good? What is the point of searching out good recordings then? They won't sound as intended on a highly colored distorted speaker!
There is no such thing as a studio monitor. All speakers are just wooden boxes. The question is how the damn thing has been tuned. Studio monitors are tuned FLAT. Audiophile speakers have a downward tilt. End of story. As a result of this, so called studio monitors sound harsh.….
ummmm …, wrong again,
The JBL L100 Century are the consumer version of the legendary JBL 4310 studio monitors. In the late 60s JBL already had a great reputation for making very accurate, full size monitors for studios. Growing demand for more compact control room monitor, forced JBL to start working on the 4310 model. The requirements were: high power handling, high acoustic output without distortion and smooth frequency response thought entire audio spectrum – all of that from a 45l enclosure. Two years after the work begun, JBL Professional Division introduced the 4310 studio monitors. These speakers quickly became first choice for many well known studios, including Capitol, Deutsche Grammophon, EMI, London/Decca, RCA, etc. In fact, these monitors became so popular, that many musicians and engineers started purchasing these for home use. This in turn, encouraged JBL to produce the consumer version of these monitors – JBL L100. JBL claimed for these to be acoustically identical to the studio equivalents, but finished in more provocative style, appropriate for home environment. And this provocative style is one of the most characteristic features of the JBL L100 speakers – the open cell foam grilles with truncated pyramids. I dare to say that these are one of the most iconic speak grills ever made.
There are different version of both studio monitors as well as consumer speakers:
4310 – fist set of studio monitors featuring distinctive oval baffle for medium and high frequency units. Drivers HF: LE20, MF: LE5-2 LF: 123A-1.
L100 – consumer version of the above studio monitor featuring all transducers in the centre line of front baffle. Drivers HF: LE20, MF: LE5-2 LF: 123A-1.
4311 – upgraded version of studio monitors, now featuring all drivers closer to each other on a reassessed baffle to accommodate flush fitting fabric grille. Drivers HF: LE25, MF: LE5-2 LF: 2213.
L100A – consumer version of the above studio monitor featuring non-linear drivers layout. Drivers HF: LE25, MF: LE5-2 LF: 123A-1.
The version I am reviewing is the L100A. So what do we have here? Well, these are relatively large by modern standards, 3 way bookshelf speakers with a very basic crossover network and all driver diaphragms made of paper. What a mixture!
Ever since Altec Lansing introduced the Duplex 604 in 1944, mix engineers have relied on studio monitors to provide them with the accurate details needed to make critical mixing decisions. Studio monitors come in a variety of configurations with many different options. There are active studio monitors with built-in amplifiers and passive studio monitors that use external amplifiers, nearfield studio monitors with small low-frequency drivers and large studio monitors with multiple drivers for mid and low frequencies, and some studio monitors even include onboard DSP for acoustic management. Each style and configuration of studio monitor has its advantages.
@kenjitDoes make some good points and so does @fair and of course @lonemountain is a real acoustic engineer, great conversation.
I have a unique view on this question because I have a professional mixing studio in the same room as my audiophile system. I have worked hard to be able to switch from one system to another (using Dante) to test the mix in one system and then the other. I use the fairly new Genelec "The Ones" monitors (best choice I’ve ever made for monitors) in Dolby Atmos configuration for the professional mixing studio then my audiophile system is 90 degrees from that system in the same room. Now that I’ve tuned my professional system in a bit more it is nice to listen to but my audiophile system is totally different. This creates an interesting conflict.
The professional system has disturbing pinpoint imaging the speakers are point source and internally powered I’m still not used to the transients and the imaging it is another world. The audiophile system is like a steak with lots of wonderful spices on it, there is no one on this forum of experienced listeners who would rather listen to the same music or movie on the professional system rather than the audiophile system that’s because it sounds more magical and entertaining. The professional system is exactly how I wanted it to sound great with very well recorded music and shows the warts with music and movie that aren’t done as well this is exactly what a studio system should show. The Genelec speakers are very sophisticated for the ultimate reason to show you exactly what you have, audiophile system are designed to sound good.
Professional studios need accurate sound not good sound, what is accurate? I’ve said this in other notes but accurate sound is when you talk with Anthony Hopkins, Tom Cruse, and Jack Nicholson on the set then record their voices while acting and have the producers smile because their voices sound the same in dailies.
I would like to hear your opinion in a year or two once you are more acclimated to your studio system. I find it harder and harder to go back to less "accurate" systems. There could even be generational aspects at work. Younger people don’t find film as "romantic" as us old farts do. They find it unnatural.
Have you taken a room response on both systems and tried adjusting the studio system to match the audiophile system? I play around with curves depending on the music and mood.
It sounds like tour studio system and audiophile system should have similar reflections or did I interpret wrong?
@thespeakerdudeI did do some room acoustic programs with both systems, I moved my Lyngdorf 60.2 to be used with the pro system so I could use "Room Perfect", I had to use a program called DADman to allow me to monitor Atmos through the Lyngdorf with the room adjustments and also monitor cleanly through ProTools DigiLink directly with no room correction. It didn’t really make a big difference I have a good room high ceilings and no parallel walls, (that is key). The pro system keeps surprising me all the time when I listen to music especially. The audiophile system has much more expensive speakers and amps and sounds much warmer way way more bass and a much larger sweet spot. The audiophile system has 16 amps the pro system uses all active speakers the dynamics and transients of the pro system are off the charts but then again I don’t listen very loud ever, that’s why I got out of live sound 35 years ago and got into movie sound. I have about 12k watts of power on my audiophile system and only ⅓ of that on the pro system but they are active speakers and very efficient, I think the sub is only 800W where the audiophile subs are each about 2000W or so 3000W peak. I much prefer the audiophile system but now having both system in the same room It makes it very hard to mix because there are 2 very different sounds. I don’t want to mix thinking about my audiophile speakers I have to put on a different had as they say.
@thespeakerdudeOnly 1 sub, it is also made by Genelec it was designed to go with their new speakers. This sub is also not like my audiophile subs it doesn't shake the house (I have a big house 12k square feet) it has a much different personality it simply extends the sound downward it isn't it's own wow. The sub is in the corner so it gives enough to produce an effect but nothing like my audiophile subs. This is the quandary and the reason why I put both systems in one room. I can playback the mix on my audiophile system simply to compare my mix to my own reference of movies and music I've listened to on my audiophile system. I think it's the best thing to do to cover myself using such a new system and also me being in a different part of the business for so long (recording not mixing), I need all the help I can get.
It's nice of you to think so, but to be correct I am NOT an acoustic engineer. I am really the behind the scenes product manager and also the one who talks to customers and visits studios (a "technical sales" function). However, I have a strong belief that selling by convincing isn't really possible, people figure that out. The only way to "sell" in pro or consumer is to educate and let smart people figure out their own answers. My mission is to reduce the typical misinformation to the engineering department (factories operating on incorrect assumptions) and from the engineering department (buyers misunderstanding product values).
If studio speakers were references they would all sound the same but they dont. They are all tuned differently just like with regular speakers. It is just a marketing term. Genelec is a heavily measurement oriented company. The problem is measurements alone dont tell you everything. Thats why you need golden eared masters to come along and listen to the damn thing and tune it by ear. You have admitted yourself that the genelecs dont sound right. Neither your paradigm or genelec are correct. So stop deceiving yourself and continue searching for PERFECT sound. It is a lifelong journey dont be so naive.
I hear you @lonemountain, I have done design, project management, product management, and marketing engineering. If the customer has an open mind, you can educate them, and they will find their own way there. If they don't even faced with a demonstration, they will still talk themselves out of change. When they are the decision maker, sometimes it is best to just leave them to the competitors and spend time elsewhere.
@kenjitTotally understand what you are saying and I agree but I never said the Genelecs didn't sound right. My Genelecs are much more accurate than my Paradigm 9hs and JL subs but the Genelecs don't sound better. These are two different questions and it make me wonder what the right way to mix sound is. Movies are more normalized but within them are many pieces of music, effects, dialog, folly, narration etc. and I don't want my movie to sound like every one else's.
Speakers that you use all the time are references, when you hear an actor like Anthony Hopkins on your set of speakers you know how he should sound so your brain pins that sound signature to its walls and thus no matter what system your usually listen to it becomes your reference. Many great songs have been produced with really bad monitors. As audiophiles we must strive to push manufacture not to make more wonderful sounding equipment but more accurate equipment and hopefully the extra flavoring we now put all over our music will be replace with accurate music and sounds in the future. Probably the weakest link in the cain is the way the original acoustics work with the original recording microphones.
@kenjitdon't let a lack of industry knowledge stop you. Studio monitors in the past were all over the place. That is changing. They are moving to DSP corrected frequency response, optimal crossover via DSP, and low distortion.
Where they vary is in their bass extension, which ideally is addressed with subwoofers, and dispersion, which ideally is addressed with room acoustics. Distortion characteristics of speakers are much different and gets much more distinct as the volume increases.
With a listening setup where the speakers are toed-in so that they point directly at the listener, and the room is somewhat damped to control reflections, corrected studio monitors sounds surprisingly similar with the caveat you use proper subwoofer integration to fill in the bass and you don't have large room response deviations.
Where the differences are amplified are obvious non-corrected speakers, where the toe-in is reduced exposing more off-axis frequency deviation, and first reflection control and room response which is a combination of environment and speaker dispersion. Direct at the listener with reduced reflections is the best indication of the recording. As you stray from that you are using the speaker dispersion and room response to create a very indeterminate transfer function that often is pleasant, but would be hard to label as accurate.
Must always walk back to 2 channel both throws away large amount of information during recording and is often simulated. Whatever comes out the other end and reaches your ears is both a representation, and interpretation, and manufactured illusion. None of that implies that we cannot set goal within our reproduction equipment to "perfect" aspects of reproduction that maximizes the communication of information within the recording. "Perfect" frequency response improved beginning to end tonal accuracy, or timbre. Perfect frequency response also improves the ability to locate sounds. Perfect frequency response and unit matching also significantly improves instrument positioning. "Perfect" off axis response, defined as smooth frequency response off axis, smoothly rolling off w.r.t. angle (horizontal and vertical), no off axis resonances, etc. allows the ability to create a room response that is also smooth without anomalies, this also plays into tonal accuracy and timbre. I should not have to write the importance of low distortion as a requirement for accurate reproduction.
Direct at the listener with reduced reflections is the best indication of the recording. As you stray from that you are using the speaker dispersion and room response to create a very indeterminate transfer function that often is pleasant, but would be hard to label as accurate.
Just throw your speakers away and use headphones if you think that
It would be a good idea to learn more, and type less. If you believe what you just wrong, then you need to learn a lot more. I apologize for breaking my rule of replying to one of your posts. I will not do it again.
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