Griff, Maybe it's a matter of language, your quote from Richard Steinfeld proves my point. Stanton was not trying to "replicate" a MC, he was trying to build a better LO cart, not a replica or copy.
"To me, I felt the LO version more lent its presentation towards the M/C spectrum of sound. Not that I found anything to dislike with the HO version. But if forced to choose one over the other, I would have picked the LZS. The whole idea of this cartridge design was to replicate a M/C."
The Epoch carts came later. The Epic II LZ9S and HZ9S were reviewed 1/'85 in Stereo Review. I don't have a link.
Regards, |
Neo,
You stated that Stanton made 3 different LZ models. See your own statement. I Quote: "Stanton made 3 different LZ models".
In fact, Stanton made 4 models of just the Epoch. The LZ6, LZ7, LZ8 and the LZ9. If we include the 3 your post eludes to, that would make 7 in total, not your stated 3. Neo, I am not sure I understand what you are referring to with your statement "mater of lauguage"? I never said these were copies of M/C's or that Stanton was trying to 'Copy' M/C's. Only that he was trying to replicate what a M/C does to the signal it receives. I do understand the it is physically impossible to make a M/M cartridge suddenly become a M/C. It is either one or the other. That is unless it's a Micro Acoustic! (grin) Regards, |
Griffithds, "Only that he was trying to replicate what a M/C does to the signal it receives."
A MC doesn't receive a signal it generates a signal by a specific method. There are both LOMC and HOMC, differentiated by output voltage and impedance. Inductance is a product of generation.
Stanton was not trying to "replicate" a MC. "Walter Stanton did not like the moving coil principal that's been so dear to many audiophiles."
That's what I mean by language.
Regards, |
Fleib,
There are many forms of a signal. The signal that a M/C generates is an 'electrical' signal. The signal that a M/C receives are in the form of undulations of the record groove. It's still a signal. A stop sign is a signal to stop. Rain is a signal to open your umbrella. If a cop is following you and is flashing his red lights, it's a signal to pull over. A signal doesn't 'have' to be electrical. Regards, |
Hi Fleib and David,
I would like to readdress the Sony/Satin discussion. Was their, or is their a cross reference guide that would identify which Sony is what Satin? I understand there are several Satin cartridges that are sought after I wonder if it would be perhaps easier to find then under the Sony ID. All this just might be wishful thinking. I am hoping that either of you or anyone else for that matter, might be able to shine some light on this issue. There was very little (if any), discussions about either Satin or the Sony's on this forum. The Satin's have been kind of a best kept secret and has remained rather an unknown. Considering the money that Sony had available, and to have them pick Satin to produce their cartridges, tells me that their has to be some mighty fine cartridges out there waiting to be discovered. Regards, |
Griffithds, Isn't the nonsense you're writing now, language?
"The whole idea of this cartridge design was to replicate a M/C. I feel it accomplished this idea better in the LZS."
Replicate - to duplicate or copy (something) exactly.
You were writing about the sound quality of HZ vs. LZ not output, and the statement is wrong. The "whole idea" of both cartridges was to NOT replicate a moving coil.
Regards, |
Griffithds, Satin had an M-21 and M-21B in the early '80s. They might be the better ones. They made a lot of HOMC.
I thought the early Sony XL were Satin, but I'm not sure. David says no.
Regards, |
Yes Neo,
I have been writing (and thinking), in terms of sound quality of the LZ. You have been writing (and thinking), in terms of design. My statement 'replicate a M/C' was referring to 'its sound'. Not its design. The 'nonsense' that I'm writing is a discussion in that context. His intent Neo. Not his design! I used the word 'replicate' because his intent wasn't to 'duplicate exact'. He was trying to capture the 'sound' of the M/C in his M/M cartridge. Replicate it! Neo, some see the world in black and white, and there's nothing wrong with that. But others sees the world in color. Sorry to discover your world is so narrow!
Regards, |
"Maybe it's a matter of language, your quote from Richard Steinfeld proves my point. Stanton was not trying to "replicate" a MC, he was trying to build a better LO cart, not a replica or copy."
Seems reasonable to me. Now you choose to qualify your statement, and in your colorful world a record groove is a signal.
Give it a rest. |
My knowledge of Sony/Satin is based mostly on material posted on "The Vintage Knob" http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-VC-8E.html
On here: http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-XL-55.html it is mentioned that the fully owned "Sony SoundTec Corporation " was set up to manufacture/design cartridges in 1976, and shut down in 1985...
XL-MC series is here: http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-XL-MC1.html Where it mentions that there were only 5 Sony rebadges ever...
So there may only be a couple of "Satin" cartridges - the rest are all Sony. |
Dlaloum,
Your information is quite helpful. I see many Sony's for sale on the Japanese sites. Seldom do I see anything that even slightly resembles something that was built by Satin. Actually most of them (the Sony's), look more like Ortofons or the Sumiko Talisman's which both BTW are Japan manufactured. Yet I keep hearing or reading (speculations) with references to Satin when early Sony cartridges are mentioned. This is why I inquired about if there ever was some kind of cross-reference chart available. Thanks again. Regards |
I think the Sumiko Talismans were another rebadged XL-MC body, mounted in a custom made metal body.... particularly the talisman virtuoso, looks like an XL-MC, bracketed into a solid metal body... (presumably with a custom specified cantilever...)
The less square talismans look more like the XL-MC - but a customised version with a solid body rather than the original Sony "removable stylus" version.
I do find my XL-MC104 very sweet, but clearly limited by its relatively ordinary cantilever (resulting in a noticeable resonance around 6kHz if I remember correctly from measurements a few years back) - I think the same beastie with a ruby or boron cantilever might be quite a magical cartridge... then it would be called an XL-MC3 (that is also LO rather than the 104 which is HO)
What is this secret Japanese website you use? (and how do you work the shipping?)
bye for now
David |
David,
The Japanese sites are no secret. But much understanding is required to operate within its system. Then you have the exchange rates to deal with because all bidding is done in Yen. Many fees are also involved but the good part is that you can find many rare cartridges that do not turn up on other markets. At the moment there is a Sony XL-MC9 available that I am going to bid on. Seldom seen anywhere else! Regards, |
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David,
I do not know why I didn't think of you before with this but I guess 'better late than never'. There is a cartridge available on the Japanese auction site that is a creation of the Garrott Bros. I have no idea that they were producing these. It is called the Garrott Bros. Slimline. It is one of those light brown or tan Grado's. I had never even heard of this Slimline Garrott Bros. Its has a starting price is 20000 Yen ($168). Being from Austrilia, you might have some information in regards to this. Maybe not, but no harm in asking! Regards, |
Griffithds, Slimline was Garrott re-tip service. Brown Grado might be a TLZ?
I understand that Slimline is particularly good at reading the signal, err... make that groove. (smiley face) |
David, "I do find my XL-MC104 very sweet, but clearly limited by its relatively ordinary cantilever (resulting in a noticeable resonance around 6kHz if I remember correctly from measurements a few years back) - I think the same beastie with a ruby or boron cantilever might be quite a magical cartridge... then it would be called an XL-MC3 (that is also LO rather than the 104 which is HO)"
6KHz ? Seems unusually low, does the 104 look like an MC2 or 3, but with a P-mount holder?
I just remounted my XL-MC2 (forgot I had it) in an Alphason HR100S. While not a world class cart, it is eminently listenable and has no glaring faults. I didn't measure the cantilever, but it looks to be about 4mm w/.2 x .7 tip.
I noticed the coupling between the cart body and the carrier benefits from some tack. I wonder if this could be the 6KHz resonance. It seems unlikely that such a low resonance could be from HO coil mass.
Regards, |
Fleib,
Thanks for the reply. I own a couple of Grado's. A Signature 8 and a G+1/8MZ. I wonder if The Garrott Bros. (Slimline), version would be the same type of rebuild as what they did for the A&R Cambridge P77. In other words, internal tweaking, potting, etc. This might be an interesting one to hear! The upper end Grado's do have a rather magical mid-range. Regards, |
Griffithds, Garrott did/does repairs, mods and retip. Slimline was their name for a stylus type - think it was like a fine line or shibata. Here's an Excel ES70_ retipped: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=27221
DIY mods are popular for Grados with replaceable stylus. They usually entail a drop of silicon somewhere near the end of the cantilever to dampen it, and an outrigger to stabilize tracking. The undamped or under-damped cantilever is actually a design feature, but the damping might improve tracking and the infamous Grado dance. Not sure what can be done internally to a plastic bodied Grado.
Regards, |
Hi Fleib,
the 6Khz resonance does not make sense from the cantilever - and surprised me, it may well be the coils - but even then...
Yes it is the standard XL-MC "stylus unit" mounted in a p-mount carrier - this version being a HO stylus.
The body does seem very firmly mounted in its carrier - I doubt it is a mounting resonance.
Like I said before - this is a very sweet sounding cartridge - it has a bell like tone that I put down to the boost around 6kHz.
bye for now
David |
Hi Fleib, the plastic bodied Grado's are the ones that are modded, I have not heard of people doing this type of work on the woodies.
All the current woodies have non removable styli, and are difficult to get into.
Cartridgeman is the single best known "modder" his version of the plastic bodied Grado's compete directly with Grado's own woodies... and the latest version received a ruby cantilever with line contact tip..
Apparently you can purchase his stylus.... Which would make an interesting upgrade for one of the better signature bodies!
bye for now
David |
David, Re: Sony - The coupling on my MC2 seems less secure than your 104. That's why I mentioned it. I have a bit of tack on the cart body where it meets the carrier. Any resonance like that measured at the output would have to originate with the cantilever, so in that sense you're right, but the question is why. 6KHz seems too high for it to be that coupling and I noticed on the standard mount the output pins seem to be on a type of suspension.
Since the vast majority of mechanical energy is not converted to electricity, it could be just about anywhere in the cart/setup. Have you measured similar resonances in P-mounts, or are most on universal adaptors?
Regards, |
Found this resonance only on the XL-MC104P... although I have not run it in the magnesium technics SH90S headshell, I doubt it is the mounting as I also use the same adapter with my 1000e-SAS - which shows no resonance at 6kHz. Mind you, it could be micro-differences .... and the 104 might be marginally smaller and therefore slightly loose - but I don't think so - it feels quite firm in there... (and I do use the tightening screw on the p-mount)
I do not own a "pure P-mount" arm... the SH90S serves that function on my JVC, and a universal adapter (cannot recall whether it is an Ortofon or AT one ...) is mounted on the Revox. |
Hello all, and Merry Christmas!
I was able to get an Astatic MF 2502, the other day,( thanks Banquo363) and it came with a great pamphlet of the Astatic MF 2500 line. What would be the best way to get the information into the cartridge database? |
hi acman, You'll need to scan the doc onto your computer (as a pdf or jpg) and then upload it here |
Viva Raul! Did any of you guys receive a seasonal greeting from Raul via email? I did. Good to know he's OK. Happy New Year to all. |
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Dear Lew, With 'seasonal greetings' you probably mean the Holiday kinds? He was very formal and religious in his email to me but I wrote to him that we want him back. There is no need for prima donna behaviour in our forum. |
Raul survives!
Yes Lew, I received a greeting from Raul as well. Nothing personal but nice to learn he is active, even if not on Audiogon. I just returned from a holiday visit with family and found his message yesterday. |
Where is Raul??
Posted at Lenco Heaven for any member to see, about the banning of Raul from that forum:
"He was finally banned after making a lengthy and highly contentious post about, as I remember, America and Europe generally trammelling the black and hispanic peoples of the world. If you want to listen to more of his ravings, which IMO were in no way a result of his pretty decent grasp of English, then by all means go and find him at whichever forums will tolerate him."
That offensive post "could not be left in the open so most members did not and cannot see it. The Admin on LH do not like to ban anyone, lock threads or delete posts and are VERY patient but Raul overstepped the mark - END OF STORY!" |
I don't buy it. Raul trammeling Hispanics is an immolation of his heritage. Raul is the Ambrose Bierce of audio, a lost rebel for a lost cause, Viva Zapata! |
You got it backwards...it didn't say HE was trammeling Hispanics, but that he wrote about "America and Europe generally trammelling the black and hispanic peoples of the world."
He did begin a thread in which he managed to offend almost everybody else who participated, and was possibly pushed to his "last word" out of frustration at others who "jammed" his thread with pictures of and stories about cats. While I have not read the offending post, if he wrote that, he's best gone. |
Looking through Raul's posts on LF, he seemed to be a problem for the moderators, Insulting most everyone he had a discussion with. Whatever he wrote it was probably just the last straw. Hopefully he is doing better.
The part about the cats did make me spit coffee. |
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To profit from Raul for years is one thing but making jokes about him is one other. We even made jokes about 'carts of the week' without realizing how much money Raul spend on all those unknown carts. Since he left I have hardly seen any new cart review not to mention the cart of the month or year. As if we forget what the expression 'gratitude' means. |
I think a lawyer may be twisting my words. A little revision of history from past threads?
It did make me LOL, thanks! |
Dear Nandric, I think Acman has a point. He was not making jokes about Raul. To your point about the money Raul spent on cartridges. No one ever in history has done more to increase the cost of good vintage cartridges than Raul. When Raul amassed his collection, before starting this thread mostly, none of us were competing with him to buy them. So, whatever he paid, he got them much cheaper than did any of us who followed in his footsteps. Thus he actually increased the value of his own investment via this thread and our sheep-like behavior. This is all well and good, and no reason to be angry at Raul.
Further in defense of Raul, who can deny that Western Europeans (counting the American Caucasian establishment as immigrants from W Europe) committed many atrocities against African peoples over the last 3 centuries? As for Hispanics, there is some irony. Hispanics (if you include the Portuguese) have been on both ends of the spectrum, giving and receiving abuse. One can only hope for progress. If Raul is out of control mentally or emotionally, then he only has my sympathy. I would be sorry to hear that. |
Acman&Lew, I deed not use the expression 'we' in the sense of pluralis majestatis but included myself among the 'ungrateful'. So I was not referrig only to Acman. I know that Lew is 'ón the money' like most of us with the exception of items which are impossible to resist(grin). However Lew overloked all the carts which Raul purchased but deed not wrote about. Lew's reference to cultural differences is actually my primary reason to 'defend' Raul. His Spanish background means a peculiar sensitivite to what is called 'pride'. My guess is that he left us because he felt insulted
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****One can only hope for progress.****
How true! And an essential ingredient of "progress" is to always be conscious of our own individual preconceptions and biases when it comes to political and racial matters; which inevitably lurk about in our psyche coloring our opinions. EVERY race or peoples have been at both ends of the spectrum and been both the victims and perpetrators of atrocities. Seems to me that true progress will only come when we abandon the tendency towards a victim mentality and acknowledge our own role in the mess that the world is (incredibly) still in.
As for cartridges and Raul: I miss Raul and wish him well. Whatever he is going through, I hope he does not lose his passion. But I must acknowledge the uncomfortable feeling that I have at the realization that, while parts of the world are still a horrible mess, we are able to indulge in the luxury of concern about phono cartridges. We are blessed. Is it progress? I hope so. |
Some of this judgement makes me wonder how many of us 'goners met Raul face to face? I felt fortunate to have three meetings with him, first at a friend's who introduced us. second when he came to my home, and third when a group of us went out to dinner.
Based upon all that I found him to be very polite, knowledgable, and yes, opinionated. But who among us does not feel strong convictions about our own preferences in gear and music? Through all that my impression was a man of underlying "old school" charm and friendliness.
Now admittedly that was a few years ago, long before this thread reached 10K. And while we exchanged personal correspondence for awhile I know nothing about him from the past couple of years. So now I just hope he is healthy and enjoying his music. |
Dear Nandric, The only time I felt that Raul was "insulted" in a way that was inappropriate to our usual civil discussions was during one of his many encounters with one of the Germans. During one of those encounters, I felt there was a borderline explicit ethnic slur directed at Raul, for being Mexican. Otherwise, I think you would agree it was usually Raul doing the "insulting", if one takes criticism of one's audio system as an insult. However, I would agree Raul was never guilty of an ad hominem insult. If he left the thread for such a reason, then I wonder if he is logical. |
Pryso, I wrote a long response, but when I read what I wrote, I realized, it sounded like Raul was dead. A eulogy.
++++++. Raul is alive and can respond for himself!!!!!!!!! +++++++
Ambrose Bierce of audio indeed! Vivia Raul! |
Technics EPC-U25: This cartridge has been periodically tormenting my ears for three years. Trying a fifth stylus now. Two generic, a Nagaoka replacement, a SAS and finally what is represented as an OEM example. This will be the last stylus tried for this abominable (so far) performer.
Some may remember from several months ago a thread rating one hundred cartridges? This one was (IIRC) the 98th place holder. Althouth nearly inconceivable, if #'s 99 & 100 are less musical they might best be avoided?
Admittedly slow to learn and determination now exhausted, next action for this cacophony generator will be a slow boat to Oz. There, hopefully, a certain Agoner will test this miserable specimens' build quality with his size 9 steel-toed hunting boots.
Peace, |
You rang Professor....?
I've finally had a chance to listen to the JVC Z1/SAS for the last 5 days. I don't think that a stylus/cantilever assembly requires any 'break-in' so serious listening was done comparing the SAS stylus to the original JVC beryllium/Shibata (which is a beautifully polished square nude shank pressure-fitted diamond compared to the glued SAS into a boron/aluminium cantilever). It was immediately obvious that the tonal characteristics of both styli were similar with the SAS extending the high frequencies quite considerably, with a transparency and delicacy which was appreciated. As already mentioned by me and all the other listeners.....the bottom end and midrange of this cartridge is impressive. The overall tonal presentation is much to my liking being similar to all my favourite cartridges like the Signet TK-7LCa and 7SU, the Garrott P77/SAS, the Shure V15TypeIII/SAS, the Fidelity Research FR7f/Lc, the ZYX UNIverse and the MIT 1 but the Z1/SAS may be better than other cartridges I've heard at 'deciphering' complex and/or badly recorded/mastered records. As I've written previously elsewhere http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1236947666&openmine&zzHalcro&4&5#Halcro....I don't think there is much to be gained by listening to wonderfully recorded tracks of music one loves when comparing cartridges? How many degrees of 'wonderful' can there be? So the torture tests of 'Alabama' and 'Words' from Neil Young's "Harvest" were delivered with a clarity and understanding I had never previously heard. So also for the climax in "Pines of Rome" whilst 'Wah Wah' by George Harrison was actually 'listenable' at volume. A rare occurrence indeed.....
The only faults with the Z1 that I could perceive at this early point is a lack of expansive soundstage width (not beyond the speakers) and a suspicion that its euphonic bass and midrange may well conceal the differences between recordings.... with a certain 'sameness' to the sounds of various recordings over long listening sessions...?
I have yet to change headshells and tonearms let alone turntables.... Time is on my side....😎 |
I liked the Ambrose Bierce metaphor, too. How many people know who he was and why he is important? Not many. But Ambrose Bierce disappeared into Mexico. Surely Raul has not disappeared into the USA.
Bierce would have skewered all of us for spending so much time and argument talking about phono cartridges. |
Regards, Halcro: Technics EPC-U25, an etch for which there is no cure.
Now the cart of the biennium (COTB), a NOS Shibata seems unobtainable for the JVC Z1. As an alternative to the SAS assembly, would anyone have any experience of the OEM elliptical on beryllium?
Peace, |
i found the observation here about mm mass with newer Neo magnets available versus older AlNiCo magnets interesting. it would seem to make sense that keep all else constant and stronger magnets now available means better carts. |
Hello Tom,
Last month I bought a NOS Z-1 stylus assembly. Yes, a Beryllium cantilever with a Shibata tip still in the box and sealed. I paid 2800 Yen. Yes, $24 for a NOS Beryllium cantilever/Shibata combo. These cartridges and styli turn up quite often on the Jauce auction site in Japan. It seemed to be quite a popular cartridge in Japan. Our Comrade Nandric has seen and bought a few on the Europeen sites as well. The do appear to be quite rare on the US site though. But as Halcro has stated, a Z-1 with a SAS stylus assembly is quite amazing. When you consider its cost, it becomes an absolute bargain! I consider it the best when compared to both the X-1 and the Z-1 originals. This is by no way a day and night improvement with the SAS. Subtle but meaningful differences if your system is up to it. Your question in regards to a Beryllium/elliptical version also had me going after that one to see how it would compare. I passed up one that sold for $59, including the body! The reason I passed is because I saw the 'buy it now' Z-1 ($24) stylus. Yes, I was shocked! Regards, |
Mapman, Magnets that are more powerful per unit of mass are always nice, but the upshot is usually more output, not necessarily better sound. Or in the case of MC cartridges, you can maintain a useable output whilst reducing the number of turns in the coil and thereby lowering the internal resistance and already very low inductance. |
Regards, Griffithds: Thanks, Don. JVC literature declares neither the Z or X carts are (were) not marketed in Canada or the U.S., will cast my internets a little wider.
Peace, |