Hello Timeltel,
Tom, did you locate a Z-1 body. I think the guys over on the Audio Circle were working on providing you with one. All you will need is the SAS from Jico to literally rock your boat! (grin)
Best regard, |
Regards,Griffithds: Hi, Don. Have been searching, no cart yet. Did find a JVC DT-Z1E stylus. Should be here tomorrow. Thanks for your kind attention, it's much appreciated.
Peace, |
Tom,
I have bought a NOS Z-1E. It's a complete cartridge with stylus and a Victor head shell. All this for $34 on the Jauce auction site. When it arrives (probably 10 days), if it is as described, I will offer you my current Z-1S body (that is if interested). As you might know, all Z-1's are the same. They just came with different stylus assemblies. Best regards, |
I just took delivery of a very clean TOTL Luxman PD444 with a mounted pair of Signet XK50 arms and a mystery cartridge. It turns out to be a Signet TK100LC. It might have a ruby cantilever. Any knowledge of this model? I can find no specs or meaningful details. |
Re: Signet Cartridges TK100?
Postby Paul_G. » 04 Feb 2003 10:43 I have the Signet TK100LC Cart. on a Micro Seiki TT, it is an MM, 2.2mV Output, Nude Mounted Natural Diamond Straight Line Contact Stylus, Cart. Weight is 7.5 grams. This Cart. sounds wonderful on the Micro Seiki TT, a very clear sounding cart. with great midrange sound but not much base, I hope this helps.
Paul_G. ============================================================ Found this post from VE about Signet TK100LC.
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Found this additional info: Signet's 'statement' cartridge, the TK100LC, was made in the mid-1980's and originally cost $1200.00. It does look like it is based on the TK10ML but has a gold and red body and a ruby cantilever. |
Thanks. Yes, a gold and red body. The second arm has a TK10ML, unfortunately with a twisted cantilever. Pretty nice freebies with this TT from an estate sale. |
Dgarretson - I was watching the auction and wondered how many folks recognized the TK100Lc. My take on this cartridge is that it's very accurate and MC-like, though mine was retipped by Peter. Time to take it out of the drawer to refresh my recollection. |
Jmowbray, I wonder if Peter or some other servicer can straighten the suspension of the TK10ML? The TK has a rather soft suspension relative to the TK100LC, which may have made it more prone to take on a sideways set. Is it simplistic to think that it might be re-aligned? Has anyone had success in fixing this kind of issue with an AT or Signet cartridge?
I'm looking forward to trying the 6gm effective mass Signet XK50 tonearms with MM/MIs and comparing this to my MA-505 and EPA-100 on the same table. |
Jmowbray,
Peter doesn't do suspension work, only cantilever/stylus replacements. Sent it to either Andy or Axel. Andy's in the state of Washington (Needleclinic), and Axel is in Germany at http://www.schallplattennadeln.de I've use the both and can recommend either to do the work you require. Regards, |
Griffithds, thanks for that info but I am not the one in need of it. I'm sure Dgarretson would be interested however. |
Don, unless he changed his policies that is not true. Peter corrected a cantilever alignment/suspension problem for me with a vdH cartridge.
Now that was a couple of years ago. |
Hi Pryso,
I just received back a Sony XL-55 in need of suspension tweaking. It was returned stating he didn't do suspension work unless it was something related to cantilever replacement adjustments. I felt that his reply made it pretty clear! Regards, |
Yep. I sent Peter a Grace Ruby with absolutely no cantilever at all, so in "re-tipping" he replaced suspension, cantilever, stylus. |
I have a Lyra Helikon with him right now with a suspension issue. We'll see how that goes, however the situation is atypical insofar as he had earlier replaced its diamond with his OCL alternative. |
Where is Raul BTW? I miss his posts. |
Haven't heard anything more about the JVC MM's. Griff loaned me an X1 for awhile and I found it most interesting. I haven't tried the Z1/SAS. It seems, there's much love for this combo. Nothing to say?
neo/fleib |
Fleib,
The Professor has returned my Z-1/SAS and I will package it up today. I will have it in the mail on Monday for you listening pleasure! (grin)
Best regards, |
Thanks Griff. I thought there might be more discussion/opinions.
Awhile back, Luckydog posted on Karma that strapping a cart in series rather than parallel, will give true mono output. Can't say I understand this, but I thought I'd test it. I'll have to get another set of headshell wires. Hooking this up is a PIA. I assume you have to connect the red and white together and likewise the negatives, then connect it like two speakers in series.
Cart inductance/resistance should increase instead of decrease. Anyone know why vertical cantilever movements would cancel? Regards, |
Will someone at audiogon please delete this old post? 234 pages, really? Geeze. |
Abrew19, Well the saying is: ''One man's meal is another man's poison''. My way out is to read the last page except when I want to check one of those carts of the month. |
Abrew19, This thread is an institution. Why would we want it deleted? If you don't like it, don't read it!
I've been enjoying a Technics EPC 205mkII L, with a Jico SAS stylus for the last 6 months. The 205mkII L is the low output version of this cart. Suppose to be 2 mv with the stock stylus. With the SAS it seems to have a little less output than the stock stylus.
Recently recommended the EPC 207C to a friend that was looking for a economical cart. When he received it I installed it for him and stuck my Jico SAS stylus on it. The result was very good. I let him borrow the stylus for a week. He ordered a SAS after that. The word must be out on this Technics stylus because there is a 4 to 6 week wait for one now. Really impressed with the the price and performance of this duo.
Since he had to wait for the SAS I borrowed the 207C and tried it at home. The 207C has a lot more gain than my 205mkII L and this is why I wanted to try it out. My phono stage is a Lehmann SCR. It uses transistors for 36 db of MM gain and op amps to step up the voltage to MC level. 46, 56, and 66 gain possible with op amps engaged. I have found I prefer the sound without the extra gain of the opamps in the signal path. Even more noticeable after I upgraded most of the resistors to Vishay Z-foils.
So back to the 207C with my SAS on it. I expected more gain but also more noise. Funny thing was there was not any more background noise but lots more gain and a more ballsy and slightly fuller sound. Compared to my AT150ANV this combo has more gain and less background noise. Not sure how Technics accomplished this but I like it! I now have a high output 205 body on the way so I can return the 207C to my friend. Should be interesting to see if there is any difference in sound between to 205mkII H body and the 207C body. |
Abrew19, You obviously have not read the 235 pages because in doing so, you would understand just how much information is 'in' those 235 pages. Think of it as an Encyclopedia of knowledge. Should we discard the Encyclopedia because there are 'to many pages'? Maybe what you really need is 'pictures'! Regards, |
Sarcher30, i think you have to try 205c mk4 if you like Technics sound of this 205 series.
I have tried 4 copies of 205 mk3 and at least one of them was top condition with original stylus. Later i've tried it with new Jico SAS but the original technics stylus was better! There is nothing wrong with Jico SAS stylus for 205 series, but the BEST of 205 series is MK4 model. It took some time to find 205c mk4 it top condition. Suspenssion do fail on these models. I had 4 copies of 205c mk4 and one of them was amazing (like new). The original 205c mk4 stylus is much better than JICO SAS, also 205 mk4 is much better than original 205 mk3 vesrion of this cartridge (if you can find nos or near mint comdition).
I was a big fan of Technics MM cartridges before i sold my EPA-100 tonearm this month. My top of the line Technics MM was EPS 100cMK3 and i still have it in collection. I can't use headshell integrated cartridges anymore on my new tonearm (Reed 3P). But i can say for sure that 100 series is better than 205 series. That's why i kept my 100c mk3 and sold all 205c (mk3 and mk4).
Technics 100c mk3 and 100c mk4 are the best Technics MM cartridges. The 100c mk3 is the best looking champane color design in 100 series (the mk4 is just black). If anyone interested in Technics 100cMK3 in very good condition feel free to drop me a message: chakster45 on gmail. |
Griffithds, no I certainly have not read all 200+ pages and of course nobody in their right mind would, hah. I assume you were only joking. I just happened to come across it by accident when somebody posted and caused it to go near the top of my page. I didn't know I stumbled upon an institution that meant so much to you guys. I will ignore it. Carry on. Enjoy it guys!! :) |
Chakster, I have never heard the 205mk 3 or 4, nor the 100 series carts. I would not be surprised if they are better due to having pipe cantilevers, instead of rod construction. I do not have a tonearm that will take a headshell so that rules out the mk3 and 4 for me.
While I appreciate that they may be better than the SAS, I would rather stick with styli that are readily available. Even if I could find one that is not worn out I would probably never find another. Retippers are loath to just replace the stylus and not the cantilever. Because it is extremely difficult to accomplish. How many have had this done with success? |
Abrew19
Do 'not' ignore it. Read it! You will find far more valuable information that you would ever think possible. You might even learn something in the process. Why go through life waiting for someone else to tell you what to do or what to buy. To make good buying decisions, you could not find a better place to make that decision than from what you could learn from this forum. BTW: There are many of us who are 'in their right mind' who have read all 200+ pages. I have done it twice! Regards, |
Sarcher30, one NOS EPS-207ED needle stylus for EPC-207 cartridge is available on ebay right now BTW.
I see your point, i can't use headshell integrated cartridges on my new tonearm anymore :(
Anyway this year i've seen NOS in the box stylus available in Japan even for impossible to find technics EPA p100cmk4 cartridge (raved by Raul on here). |
Just won an auction on Jauce for a JVC/Victor Z1S cart with with new replacement stylus. All said and done about $40. Will have to order a Jico SAS for it. |
Chakster - Damm, There was a NOS EPS-P100ED4 stylus for the EPC-P100CMK4 available. I guess its gone now :-(
I really coiuld have used that for mine. While the VDH re-tip is excellent, its not quite as linear as the original. |
Sarcher30
Congratulations! For about $170 + shipping, you are going to wind up with a cartridge that is damn tough to beat! I look at some of my multi-thousand dollar M/C's and wonder if I should just go ahead and sell them. This is because the Z-1 SAS takes up all my listening time. I no sooner rotate it out, only to start thinking when am I going to rotate it back in! Hell of a bargain combination! Regards, |
While I would be really pissed off if anyone deleted this thread, I am not sure that all 235 pages would be recommended reading for a novice, which Abrew19 may be, if he is 19 years old. To get the most out of most of these posts, it's best to have a little knowledge and a lot of experience, so as to have developed a "point of view". The central theme for me is that every one of these cartridges that you guys are still discussing was once recommended by Raul, for at least a week until his attention was diverted to some other cartridge. (Well, maybe he never got to the JVCs.) Don mentions his impulse to discard his very expensive MCs. Meanwhile, I was lucky enough to acquire an Ortofon MC2000 (Raul's favorite MC) from one of our brethren, and it is a gem that I would not discard. I probably mentioned this above. I've got to compare it to my more modern MCs to determine whether I can agree with Raul. The key to MC2000 excellence may lie in its relatively high compliance, which allows it to track piano and other percussive instruments in a manner that seems superior to that of the typical low compliance MC. Piano sounds like a real piano, not like a kid's toy piano or a cheap electric keyboard. |
Sarcher, Don is right on this one....you not only got a bargain but with the SAS on the Z1 you could well stop trying other cartridges...😜 Let us know your impressions....if you can pull yourself away from listening....❓ |
The central theme for me is that every one of these cartridges that you guys are still discussing was once recommended by Raul, for at least a week until his attention was diverted to some other cartridge. Not on my watch..... Apart from the JVCs....Raul never recommended the Signets (TK3E, 3 Ea, 5E, 5Ea, 7E, 7Ea, 7SU, 7LCa) nor the Fidelity Research FR5, 5e, 6SE....all of which play a significant role in my audio listening life...👀🎼 And many of Raul's recommended cartridges which I bought have since been delivered to others due to their inability to 'glow' within my system. So whilst I thank Raul for this Thread (amongst others)....his latter-day revealed preferences for MCs and...gasp....digital....make his absence from here somewhat understandable....🙈 |
Halcro, In fairness to Raul, I seem to remember specific criticism, why the TK7LCa was not recommended. While the 5Ea, 7Ea, 7SU, and 7LCa share the same body and your opinion may differ with stylus substitution, none of those other relatively high inductance carts are worthy of cart of the month IMO.
What's the appeal of a TK3Ea? It's an old Signet w/nude .3 x .7 and that makes it cool? An AT120E seems to be exactly the same even down to the nude round shank on a straight aluminum cantilever. Why wasn't the 120E cart of the month?
I didn't agree with all of Raul's opinions (of those I knew), but it was methodology to which I objected. Results differ and no two models of the same cart are exactly the same.
Regards, neo |
Fleib, I seem to remember specific criticism, why the TK7LCa was not recommended. Please refresh my memory.... While the 5Ea, 7Ea, 7SU, and 7LCa share the same body and your opinion may differ with stylus substitution, none of those other relatively high inductance carts are worthy of cart of the month IMO. You're entitled to your opinion....however my point was that we (or I in particular) were not always (and still) rhapsodising about Raul's 'Cartridge of the Month' as Lewm's post seemed to indicate. And as we have already established...you have never heard a genuine 7LCa so your thoughts are somewhat ephemeral.... Point taken about the TK3Ea...but should you ever have the chance to insert a 155Lc stylus therein...you may indeed be surprised. You and I continue to clash on your 'theoretical' evaluations regarding a cartridge's 'sound' based on its specifications as opposed to my actual listening experiences. I don't quite understand your intentions... |
Regards, Fleib: El Diablo's peeve was with the TK7SU, not the TK7LCa. Due I believe to a poorly fitting stylus assembly. From his comments ("distortions", naturally) it was possibly not as tight a fit as would be desired. Raul would never revisit the SU with some blue tack or other mastic applied as would benefit this circumstance. AT carts are prone to lessening their grip on the stylus carrier after numerous stylus exchanges. I found it curious in as much as the AT20SS was one of his "carts of the month", rating an official Raul "review". Same generator n'est-ce pas? I run a TK7SU with either an Akai RS-180 implant or an AT20SS stylus assembly. The Akai rebranded ATN14(S) on the 7SU is a little on the organic side. With the 20SS stylus there's little to which a discerning listener might find fault.
The TK3Ea is a lower induction cart (IIRC, someone correct me if I'm in error). A lively bass and mids that are easy to listen to. Keep in mind, when some mention the TKxxEa carts, they're possibly fitted with an ATN155lc and that stylus is commendable.
Thanks to Griffiths, I've now a JVC Z1. Much enjoyed his example with the SAS stylus & found it quick in the transients and no objectionable emphasis throughout the audible range. Mids seemed a little warm but that's much to my taste. Found an Astatic elliptical replacement for the cart I extorted from Don, it's very listenable.
Peace, |
The Dutch collectievly deny any sense for humour to the Germans. But I myself very much enjoyed this German one: "If theory and practice coincide then both are probably false'. That is why I read Lew's and Fleib's (theoretical) post very carefull. Both have seldom anything to do with practice. |
Lewm,
There are a few M/C's that I 'also' would not sell. That Ortofon being one of them. It's so good that I own two of them. The only cartridge that I feel might out shine the Ortofon is my ART 9. My Einstein Barco TU-3 would also have to be counted in that mix. But when you think about what those cartridges cost compared to the Z-1 SAS, it embarrasses me to think of all that money I spent for subjective marginal differences. When you throw in the cost of SUT's or Head Amps that must be included to drive these expensive M/C's, I just have to hang my head in shame! (grin)
Regards, |
Halcro, Not sure how you established I never heard a TK7LCa, but the notion is erroneous. I chose the TK10MLII over any TK7 because of theoretical reasons, and it was TOTL. I sold Signet, we had it on demo and a friend had a 7LC, so I heard it many times. I didn't say it was a bad cart. I said Raul gave his reasons. If those reasons were about the 7SU, then that one was also on your list.
Anyway, what does my experience with a particular model have to do with Raul's opinion? I was defending his right to his opinion, not the content. Regards,
|
Professor, Not quite: TK7LCa - 550mH, 800 DC beryllium/LC TK5Ea - 550mH, 800 DC tapered/.2 x .7 TK3Ea - 490mH, 780 DC straight/.3 x .7 (nude)
The 20SS is lower inductance. All the 4-ch carts were low inductance, like the 12S and 14S. I don't remember all the figures, but they all have around 500 ohms DC and lower output. Higher inductance AT models are generally easier to load and sound "right". Yes, the beryllium/LC is a good stylus and while you can wax poetic I had a beryllium/ML - decidedly better IMO.
I'm sorry I posted here last week. Once again this thread was dormant for a couple of weeks... Regards, |
Fleib, Anyway, what does my experience with a particular model have to do with Raul's opinion? I was defending his right to his opinion, not the content. That's admirable.....but I'm struggling to find anywhere is my Posts where you could construe that I was attacking his rights...? |
Greetings Professor,
I'm wondering in your experience with the JVC Z1/SAS...whether you experimented with loading? Don loads his at 100K Ohms whilst I've found that 60K Resistance plus 150pF or so of added Capacitance eliminates the mid-bass to midrange tonal prominence....
Always good to see you here...👀 |
Fleib, Quote from you on another Audio Site 15th Jan 2015... If the generators of the 7Su is the same as the 20, then the 7LCa is odd man out. It's 5mV, 550mH, 800/900 ohms.
The 7Su is an earlier generation having a round plug? I believe the 7LCa has a 100 series rectangular plug.
neo
The question marks about the plug profiles of both the 7SU and 7LCa appear to indicate no familiarity...? If I am wrong, I apologise... 🙏 |
I will report my finding after I receive my Z1/SAS combo. It will be a while as Jico is backed up on orders. I've been very happy with my Technics 205mkII/SAS combo, but the JVC is so cheap it's hard to resist trying it out. |
Sarcher30,
It appears that you also have caught the SAS bug! (grin) Next you need to get one of those cheap A&R Cambridge P77 bodies and place upon it the SAS Stylus 1. Better yet, if you own a Garrott Bros. P77, this same SAS Stylus 1 will also mount on it. Now your talking World class contender! Regards, |
Halcro, I didn't suggest you were attacking Raul's rights. I merely stated that he addressed the Signet TK7_ etc. Your inclusion of the TK3Ea made your post an easy target. Perhaps I went too far in mentioning that, but it was accurate. The 490mH generator was an AT high end model for a long time and still resides in the 440 and 120. You'll find it in multiple models from the 160ML, 155LC, Signet 5.0 series and many others.
There's only one question mark in your quote of me. I wasn't sure about the TK7SU vintage. As it turns out, both the TK7E and 7SU ('77) are low inductance models and are the standouts on your list, which I overlooked. It appears the Professor was wrong about the 3Ea, but right about the 7SU being the same as a 20SS at least in body, and Raul's Signet survey was incomplete. If I remember correctly, he favored the 10ML II which is a whole other animal. BTW, the specs I previously quoted were from an '82 spec sheet. Regards, |
Regards, Halcro: RE the Z1, I settled on 50K Ohms & 200pF. 300pF (from my listening) is possibly correct but as mentioned above I do enjoy a slightly prominent midrange.
Fleib: Mea culpa, my poorly phrased post! Seems I'm incapable of grouping the TK9/TK10 or the 20SS with the remainder of the Signet family of carts. Thanks for the stats.
Peace, |
Seems I started another brouhaha. I am the gringo version of Raul.
Don, Forgive my pedantry, but the cartridge "drives" the SUT, not vice-versa. In any case, my Atma-sphere MP1 phono section has more than enough gain and input sensitivity that my system is driven to ear-shattering sound pressure levels by the MC2000 with no SUT in the signal path, which is why I was able to load it at 47K, at first accidentally and now deliberately. However, I do admit that at extremely high volume the noise floor becomes just barely audible. At that point, my volume control is at about 10 o'clock, only. I have yet to own any SUT in my audio life. In the old days, I had a Counterpoint SA2 "pre-preamplifier" which supplied gain between cartridge and phono stage, as an active device, in lieu of a SUT.
One of the cartridge brands that Raul mentioned I think only in his long opening rant and then only now and then after that was AKG. As a result, I've got 2 or 3 of the various top end models, not all of which have 2 good channels. But what do we think about those, these days (P8E, P8E w vandenHul stylus, etc)? Was going through my cartridge drawer last night and came across these.
Also, apart form the apparently unobtainable MF2500, what is the preferred Astatic, MF100, 200, or 300? I want to hunt down one of those.
Thanks. |
Hi Don, Just picked up a A&R Cambridge P77 on ebay and ordered a SAS MM1. Thanks for the recommendation. The Garrott's seemed to be more expensive and harder to find. Let the fun begin. ;)
Sean |