Who needs a Diamond Cantilever...? 💍

@chakster

Thanks for your interest,  message sent from the audiogon profile. :)

@best-groove you have to tell me your email address, i already asked a new owner of my pua-7 about a copy for you and he said he will be happy to help, but his scanner was broken. Anyway i want to forward your email to him, he does not read a'gon for a while. 

I had SONY PUA-7 tonearm....

@chakster do I still have to keep hoping to get a photocopy for the mounting template from you, or do I have to resign myself to saying bye bye forever?
do I still have any little hope?
More thanks.

You have a very good point, @halcro , but it seems reasonable for you to try the Sony tonearm only out for curiosity ground based on your love for the Sony cartridge. I have never tried myself but have heard good reports about its performance.

If my deduction from ''per analogy'' assumption reg. retip by
MM kinds by which the original cantilever is cut and the new
one glued IN or ON the remainder of the original can also
by done by the precious 88D then , by way of comfort, the
owner would get two 88 kinds without D but twice as many. 
Anyway the length of the ''joint pipe'' by 88 D is such that 
such proposition looks possible. There is btw also this
''second best''  assumption...

@gallus
 I had SONY PUA-7 tonearm, the original one that was for sale only as a separate unit in the box, not those cheap version people removing from Sony turntables to sell as "PUA-7" on ebay often. 

I must say the original PUA-7 is outstanding tonearm in terms on usability and build quality, very few tonearms can compete with PUA-7 in this aspect. My advice for those who're looking for PUA-7 is to buy ONLY stand alone unit like this. The armlift is the best ever, much better than anything i have tried. VTA of the fly, very nice anti-skating mechanism, so easy to use. There must be a DIN connector, cheaper version does not have it. The price even for stand alone version is very nice only if you can find it. However, It terms of sound quality there are better vintage tonearms from the same era, but they are normally much more expensive than PUA-7. Never tried the PUA-9. 

I was not impressed by the SONY MC cartridges such as XL-55, there are more better LOMC cartridges from different manufacturers (vintage and new), but i like their MM XL-50 with Boron Pipe cantilever and still have it (mint on dedicated sony headshell). 

The Pua-9 looks like an interesting arm Gallus....one I had not heard of previously.
THAT fact bothers me 🥴
Vintage tonearms, like vintage cartridges and turntables gain a ’reputation’ if they are really great.....a reputation that grows with time if they are truly ’legendary’ components.
Maintaining high resale value on the ’used’ market is a good sign of ’legendary’ quality in a component 🤗
I’ve had perhaps 15 tonearms (vintage and modern) and of the six I currently have.....five can be truly called ’legendary’ whilst the sixth one I believe, will one day attain that status.
Soundwise in my system....they all perform at a superior level to their competition, be it vintage or current.
That doesn’t mean to say that the Sony tonearms you recommend, wouldn’t compete.....
It’s just that I have no reason to believe they will...and I’m not one who is ready to test all the arms in the market place 🤪

@halcro Have you ever considered trying your Sony cartridges on a Sony tonearm of those days - Sony Pua-7 or even better the Pua-9?

Been listening a lot to my Dynavector 17D3 cum diamond cantilever.  I "inherited" this cartridge due to the passing of one of my best friends and partners in audiophilia.  At the time he bought it (new), I believe he paid about $800-$900, and it was considered a sort of best buy among LOMCs.  I have mounted it in my FR64S on the TT101, using a CF headshell.  It feeds a modified Manley Steelhead which drives my Beveridge system. It hadn't been used by him, if it was ever used (because he was already unwell when he bought it), for at least 7-8 years, and at first I was not overwhelmed with the sound.  It was just OK. But after putting a few hours on it, wow it's quite nice.  Very nice tingly realistic treble. Very detailed yet non-fatiguing over all. Dynavector is one of a few old line audio companies that give you value for dollar on a consistent basis.  I have no idea what fraction of the goodness is attributable to the diamond cantilever.

Totally different than ''don't mention M name'' I re-tipped only
one of my MM carts. The other guy posted all his MM carts
for ''refreshment''  regardless of their  need. I noticed that
re-tip by MM carts is done by cutting the original cantilever
and gluing new cantilever/stylus combo in or on the original
''rest pipe''. By ''per analogy'' reasoning one can ''imagine''
cutting the ''joint pipe'' by XL 88 D behind the diamond and
gluing new cantilever/stylus combo instead. The length of
the (aluminum) joint pipe is such that one can cut twice (grin).

The ''joint pipe'' behind the cantilever also carry coils and tension
wire. Together they are the moving parts by any MC cart.
Damping is behind coils . On the generator. So the cantilever must be somehow fastened in the joint pipe. Usually the cantilever is glued in the (joint) pipe. I also assumed that Sony XL series are ''irreparable carts''. But because of their closed (glued) plastic
bodies. However ''Grgaudio'' stated that his 88D is re-tipped.
That is why I  made an hypothetical statement about re-tip 
possibility. I still own 88D ''in parts'' but am no able to see how
the diamond is fastened in the join pipe. Well that joint pipe is 
longer than diamond cantilever. 

Great pic, @halcro ! Thanks for sharing. I assume Mr. Kingdon is biased since he took part in developing those products, much like the connection between father and his offspring. 
The regular XL-88 (red body) is also a challenge to be found even in Japan afaik.

Eric Kingdon may be slightly biased Gallus....🤩?
The normal XL-88 is far better than the either the XL-55 or
XL-55Pro IMO.....but trying to corner the market on XL-88D cartridges in mint condition, is not on my radar 🤪

There’s no way the XL-88D can be re-tipped as there is no glue involved whatsoever.
The stylus and cantilever are formed out of one complete piece of synthetic diamond.

If I remember well ''Grgaudio'' (?) who made this long list with
carts + his own valuation mentioned his XL 88D as retiped.
In my sample the cantilever was not round nor the (aluminum)
joint pipe behind. I deed not ask Axel to retip my sample but
to straighten the stylus. The usual procedure is to dissolve the
glue , remove the old cantilever and glue the new one instead.
That is why the ''standard'' retip with cantilever/stylus combo
looks so easy (considering the price) . Anyway if an retip is
possible this will also be ''big relive'' for our Aussie . 

@halcro Henry, the man behind Sony UK since the '80s, Eric Kingdon, agrees with you: Together with the Sony PS-X9 tt and the XL-55Pro cart, he ranks the XL-88D at the top of Sony offerings in the audio realm. 

It is very hard to find this gem indeed, but I think you can keep chasing a second one while you enjoy the one you have by now til the end of its days. 

as a one-piece construction like THIS

haaaa....this is not a single piece of cantilever that connects to the coils but it is a plug!
Will it be a rip-off?
And again ... what does that silver color near the stylus mean?

@halcro beautiful macro photos.

I certainly do not, but I would bet that the $1500 albums at Audio Advisors in West Palm Beach could be shown to benefit their superiority, at least if a diamond cantilever is one of their products.

So the one piece diamond/stylus cantilever combo on Sony XL88D can't be repaired, because this unique type of cantilever is not available anymore. But it can't be even re-tipped because the stylus and cantilever is one piece of gemstone. The life span of the Elliptical stylus is 600 hrs ? Actually Sony called it "Super Elliptical", so maybe a bit more. But what's then ? 

Dear @edgewear : """  So the use of aluminum cantilever has nothing to do with 'ignorance' on the designer's part ... ""

could be butb in some cases low knowledge design levels is one of the reason for aluminum cantilevers.

In this thread I posted about: 

"""  Aluminum in the FR was what the designer like it more when he voiced his cartridges. Cantilever is an important part in the whole cartridge desing but only one part and in the voicing of the manufacturers we are in the " hands " of the designer bias to some kind of sound he was looking for.

Aluminum in the Magic Diamond was or is used not because is the best material but first because use the same cartridge motor of the Denon 103 ( aluminum cantilever. ) and second because was what the biased manufacturer like it.

The use of aluminum material in cantilevers has other reasons additional of what I posted.

One of those reasons could be the low knowledge level of the manufacturer to design something better because if that design only sounds good with aluminum in the cantilever then something is wrong in that design and this is true when the design is a copy of other cartridge where exist true inhabilities to make a design.  ""


Btw, like you I really like the Colibri and owned 4-5 samples but the platinum and blackwood one. I owned the Colibri with wood body but was a red/rose one.
Now, the best Colibri cartridge I experienced was one of the first models that cames with small soft plastic body and with cooper coils with an output level of 0.22mv. Till today the best Colibri I experienced in my system and in other systems.


R.

Dear @halcro : """ in this Thread you are hearing two ’identical’ cartridges with the ’cantilever material’ the only difference. """

identical?, who says that. In this thread exist at least two posts that say different " things " about. In one of them the owner of two Koetsu similar models one with boron cantilever and the other with diamond and he said are not identical/similar and in the other post you can read that designers of same models: one with diamond cantilever and the other with different cantilever material are not similar because the designer takes more care in the whole cantilever diamond design/build cartridge as : tigther tolerances, hand selected stylus, better assembling cartridge body, even calibration to " zero " tolerance specs, etc, etc.

You have many examples of that kind. Example: Stanton 981 model is similar to the 980 cartridge, nothing change down there but that the 981 is CALIBRATED model and its sounds is better with better quality overall performance than the 980 and both use the same cantilever material and everything the " same " but calibration.

88 and 88D are way different cartridges.


""" I do believe that ’choice’ of ’cantilever material’ may be a ’primary’ element in the initial concept of cartridge designers... """

again, whom says that? when cantilever is only one of several parts in the overall cartridge design and certainly not the most important. cartridge motor is the important subject down there like the coils configuration in the Sony models.

One ce J.Carr posted to some one that ask him: " in a cartridge which makes more difference for the better: cantilever build material or stylus shape ? " and JC posted that " cantilever build material was more important " but certainly not the primary characteristic for a cartridge design.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Frogman and Edgewear are right of course...As Dover so eloquently observed....

Cartridges are always a sum of the parts - a diamond cantilever on an average cartridge is at best just a more articulate average cartridge.

The XL-55 and XL-88 obviously have a unique MOTOR design by Mori San.....but why they sound so differently to each other is a mystery only Mori could explain 🤭
When all other Diamond Cantilevers are two-piece constructions like THIS and THIS and THIS........there might also be some Mori 'magic' when he can imagine Diamond Cantilever and Stylus as a one-piece construction like THIS 🤗

You're welcome, Halcro!

If the assumption that the sound of a cartridge is determined by its performance as a system - built from various part that all have different sonic characteristics  - is correct, than the cantilever is just one of the ingredients to 'tailor' the sound. Just as coil and body materials are, as my little 'shoot out' with the Colibri's  - with boron cantilevers and vdH tip as the only constant - made abundantly clear (I wish I had the opportunity then to record these differences, as Halcro is doing now).

Other manufacturers use the same motor and coils and offer different cantilevers and/or tips as 'options'. Like the obscure Ozawa and Klipsch cartridges I happen to love, which offered aluminum, boron and ruby (and even diamond) cantilevers in otherwise the same carts with identical specs. But they surely will have sounded different, otherwise what's the point? Even today, Matsudaira san offers duraliminum and boron as cantilever options for MySonic Lab. In all these cases the boron versions are more expensive than (dur)aluminum, but does that imply they are better? Not necessarily, just different.

So the use of aluminum cantilever has nothing to do with 'ignorance' on the designer's part (as he who should not be mentioned seems to think), but with deliberate design choices. Sometimes for purely sonic reasons (as with Ikeda, Takeda and Brakemeier), sometimes to deliver different options at different price point (as Matsudaira and many others). Including Mori, who was apparently given 'carte blanche' with the 88D to extract the maximum performance from his 'figure 8' design invention. I'm sure the results are spectacular.

😂😂😂

Very interesting as that will reveal a difference within those materials as such in a well controlled, meticulously prepared environment and situation. A scientific inquiry in, shall we say Halcro´s laboratory.

Thanks Frogman for your revealing comments about 'Political Correctness' and one-sided 'complaints' to the Moderators.
Thanks also for your, as always....welcome observations between the two Sonys.

not enough has been made of the fact that the cantilever material that is best for one cartridge may not be the best choice for another cartridge that uses a different motor and a different housing; all which contribute to the overall sonic signature of the cartridge as determined by the designer’s goals.

This is true enough and Edgewear's comments are interesting (thanks Edgewear for the kind wishes 😃).....
Having said that.....I do believe that 'choice' of 'cantilever material' may be a 'primary' element in the initial concept of cartridge designers.
As we've already heard.....cartridges such as the Fidelity Research FR-7 Series, the SPUs, the Acoustical Sounds have 'chosen' to use Aluminium as their cantilever material 'of choice' whereas many 'modern' designers have chosen Boron whilst (with the Boron shortage) Sapphire and Ruby are 'returning'.
I say 'returning' because in the past....designers seemed to have a larger selection of, not only materials....but HOW the materials are utilised.
Solid rod, hollow tube, tapered solid rod, tapered tube...hybrid combinations like the Sony Carbon Fibre/Aluminium/Beryllium cantilevers of the normal XL-55 and XL-88.
Can you imagine the design time, prototyping and testing that went into that...?🤯
And not to forget the cantilever material of choice for the high-end MM cartridges of yore....Beryllium 😃

In line with their 'experimental' approach to cantilever hybrid design shown in the XL-55 and 88.....I suspect that Sony's designer Mori San as Nandric reminds us.....was given the freedom to produce a stylus/cantilever of one piece solid diamond as a 'cost-no-object' ultimate design.
He would have needed many convincing arguments...and again....prototyping and testing...to gain approval for production.
And in the end....in this Thread you are hearing two 'identical' cartridges with the 'cantilever material' the only difference 🤗

Dear @clearthink : Thank's for your advice that some times is true but here I have good experiences not only with cartridges but with Highphonic.

R.

"rauliruegasThe D15 and 6B are even better than your ruby one and I say this because the differences in price are high in between."

There is no absolute, inherent, inescapable relationship between price and actual, delivered, objective performance and if that is how you identify, choose, and select components for use in your Music Reproduction System  then it is almost certain, assured, and guaranteed that you are not only wasting your financial resources but you are also achieving a resultant poor quality performing Music Reproduction System.

Dear @harold-not-the-barrel  : Nice to read you are enjoying Highphonic R5 cartridge that was at the middle of the overall Highphonic models.

As I said Highphonic made it very good cartridge designs with very good quality performance faraway of that thin/lean characteristics that the other gentleman posted.

The D15 and 6B are even better than your ruby one and I say this because the differences in price are high in between.

Your R5 competes with the today ART9 and this fact speaks a lot of whom was Highphonic.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Was Mori san the first who used ''potting method'' for damping 
resonances in XL series carts? When Axel cut the (plastic) body
of my XL 88 D in order to get entrance in the inside of the body
he mentioned to me some kind of ''glue'' with which the whole
body was filled. Axel was obviously not familiar with ''potting''.
If my assumption is true than this is the second innovation made
by Mori. His figure 8 coil former is well known innovation.  

Per Frogman's last post, J Carr has delivered more than one treatise on this forum about the relationships among the parts of a cartridge.  I'm sure he knows more about the art of building a cartridge than any of us.  From his writings, I drew the conclusion that the science of the materials used is only one part of the equation, as Frogman also says.  It's how the parts work together to produce a coherent audio signal that counts the most.  Some swear by certain kinds of magnet vs certain other kinds, for example.  Coils of silver wire vs copper wire or silver/gold or silver-plated copper.  It's all been done at least once by somebody.  If there was only one good answer to the puzzle, we'd have a lot of very similar cartridges from which to choose.  As anyone knows, we are miles away from that condition.

I´ve been enjoying my Highphonic MC R5 w/ ruby cantilever for a year now. Indeed very low output 0.12 mV and very low VTF 1.0 gr and it simply makes magic in my system. I have never been an expert on MC cartridges and my experience is very limited but this little gem outperforms modern top MCs like AT-ART9 with ease. It´s in other league, surely a High-End product from the Golden Age of Analog. Our Dgob has the TOTL and extremely rare (not seen on Hifi Shark for many years) MC D15 but unfortunately he seems to be not active here. I think he was very pleased with it.

Dover : You are rigth, mi mistake and apologizes to Moerch designer. Anyway, the example was only to show the existence of copy-cats.

The ones like Magic Diamond that took the Denon 103 cartridge motor for their cartridges do you think they are true cartridge designers?.

In the other side, I owned and still own Highphonic cartridges and at least my samples compared to the Denon DL1000A ( that I owned. ) are everything you want but " thin sound ". I still have the MCA6 with boron cantilever and owned the D15. I agree that the 1000A could stays in the " lean/thin " side but not those 2 Highphonic models. I never heard the R5 that's the one with ruby cantilever..

The Highphonic ex-Denon employees made a good contribution in their designs when gone from aluminum cantilevers to other different cantilever build materials.What did not changed between the 1000A and the Highphonics was its very low output that if I remember is 0.12mv.

Yes, that S3 FR headshells is " terrible " and only degrades the cartridge sound. I did not need it to listed the 88D to post about because for its construction it’s so obvious the " disaster ".

R.

The off topic divertimento is highly amusing and could be summed up by paraphrasing Basil Fa(u)wlty in one of those hilarious episodes of Fawlty Towers: "Don’t mention the Mexican".

As for cantilevers (another highly amusing topic) I like frogman’s take on the matter. It’s the interaction with the other parts of the cartridge that determines the final result. I have had the opportunity to compare various vdHul Colibri models. As you may know they all share the same short boron cantilever, but offer a choice of body materials (aluminum, plastic or wood) and coils (copper, gold and platinum, the latter no longer available). The sonic difference between e.g. the small aluminum body with copper coils and the (larger) Blackwood body with platinum coils - remember: both with the same cantilever/stylus assembly - was overwhelming. And much larger than between the Blackwood and ANY of my cartridges with aluminum cantilever. The LW aluminum / gold version of the Colibri was excessively bright and agressive in my system, while the Blackwood / platinum gave the perfect balance of transparency and sweetness (it’s the one I kept in the end). The difference was really extreme and something I would never have anticipated within one model range. BTW: these and other Colibri versions were all compared in the same Reed P3 arm.

Ergo: don’t overestimate the importance of the cantilever material, as it is just one piece of the puzzle. As frogman suggested, the combination of a plastic body and a diamond cantilever in the 88D may well hit a perfect balance. I have an XL-44 (similar motor to XL-55 and 88 series), which is a nice enough cartridge but perhaps a bit too polite. I can imagine it could change gears having a diamond cantilever fitted. I have no doubt that the 88D is one hell of a cartridge, so Halcro enjoy it while you can.

Very funny stuff. As someone for whom English is a second language, or third if I were to use Uberwaltz’ criteria, I would like to point out how this is yet another example of the irony in the currently pervasive ubersensitivity to political correctness matters. What I mean is that in all the time (years!) that Nandric’s “old members (have been) teasing each other” I don’t recall a single objection from the M “victim” to the supposed racist tease. I’m late to the party here, but in the hope that the thread can get back on track I would like to add a couple of thoughts to the muy intereresante....oops... very interesting comments already made.

First, I agree entirely with Dover’s excellent observations re the differences between the sound of the two Sony cartridges. I might describe the differences heard somewhat differently, but I think that we are hearing the same things. For instance, his observation of the superior “timing” of the 88D, I would describe as the standard 88 having comparatively wooly bass with a sense of uncontrolled overhang. This causes it to have inferior pitch definition and clarity of bass notes compared to the 88D. Good pitch definition and clarity are key aspects of good musical timing. A rather wordy description of what Dover later described succinctly as more “articulate”. In all, I agree with his observations re the 88D’s superior clarity and, most important for me, superior “harmonic completeness”; the timbre of instruments, saxophone and trumpet in particular, sound closer to real.

Apologies if I have missed commentary on this point, but I think that in the quest for determining what the absolute “best” cantilever material is, not enough has been made of the fact that the cantilever material that is best for one cartridge may not be the best choice for another cartridge that uses a different motor and a different housing; all which contribute to the overall sonic signature of the cartridge as determined by the designer’s goals. Different motors offer different levels of resolution and have certain general tonal signatures just as different cartridge housings have different sonic signatures due to their particular resonance characteristics. I am certainly no expert on phono cartridges and my experience with them is certainly very limited compared to the OP’s and many here, but looking at the Sony I see a cartridge with a rather large and boxy housing constructed largely of plastic. Just an observation not meant as a criticism; clearly it is a great cartridge. To my simplistic way of thinking it would be no surprise that a cartridge with a housing that APPEARS to be less rigid and possibly more resonant than one which is more compact and rigid would benefit from a diamond cantilever with its higher degree of rigidity. The same very rigid cantilever/stylus on a cartridge with a motor and/or housing which may have inherently leaner sonic characteristics may not be the best choice for a particular cartridge designer’s goals.

Congrats on your new cartridge, Halcro; would love to hear a comparison of the 88D and the Palladian playing acoustic (orchestral?) music. Thanks for another interesting thread.

@uberwalzt, Thanks to your extended knowledge of English variations your description ''it is light hearted banter'' is more adequate than my ''teasing''. 
BTW as Halcro predicted my post is removed . Probably because
of naming one resident of Mexico ''Mexican''. 

uberwaltz
Do not forget we gave both America and Australia a perfectly good language and look just what the heck you guys did to it.
Sheesh...

...

UW - What "aboot" us Canadians ....eh?

Some of the most revelatory audio experiences for me have been meeting in person and or speaking on the phone to some forum members. The pitch and tone of the accents - 8^0

Who needs a diamond Cantilever ?

Well obviously the collector / trophy getter who stores his cartridges, lined up like little soldiers, in a specially designed cigar humidifier type container. Due to this carts apparent unicorn status - I don’t think it sees the light much, except when the best scotch or slivovitz is being served. And then more for display ?
Just an assumption.

lewm"Germans don’t really need a sense of humor when interacting with non Germans. So many of their words already sound funny to outsiders."

More ugly racist prejudice and hate mongering what is wrong with you people!

uberwaltz"I speak three languages fluently. English. American. Bullshit."

You certainly speak bullshit you spew you're bullshit all over this forum you should be embarassed by you're behavior rather than braying it all over this forum with you're bullshit.

Germans don’t really need a sense of humor when interacting with non Germans. So many of their words already sound funny to outsiders.

@clearthink, If you were able to think clear you would add to
your own qualifications ''according to me'' or ''according to
my opinion''. ''x is P'' is the logical representation of the
used sentence form. I.E, ascribing properties to objects. But
you have no right to use  your subjective opinion as some
objective characteristic. The objects may miss properties
ascribed to them . Such sentences are than considered as  
not true. 
All the involved (''racist'') persons are old members in this
forum. Sometime they tease each other. Lew started the
teasing by suggesting that Australian is not an English
language.  I added some more predicates but in good fate.
We of course don't need to have the same sens for humor.
The Dutch , for example, deny any sense for humor to the
Germans. This is however not true because I know one
German ''Witz''. 

@nandric, the "they" I was referring to were the Londons and Deccas, not all cantileverless pickups. What I really lust for is a Tzar DST1 ;-) .

nandric", I had no idea that you are ''English English'' becauseof your name. ''Sounds'' German to me.'
Race and nationality has nothing to do with this at all please stop characterizing people based on what you perceive to be they're backgrounds it is vile, insulting, and denigrating.

@uberwaltz, I had no idea that you are ''English English'' because
of your name. ''Sounds'' German to me. 
BTW this ''off topic'' discussion ls more interesting to me than about
cantilevers. 

now the discussion ended in 'off topic ending up losing all the initial interest.

It must be an ''American thing'' that some of them are not able
to ''grasp'' what teasing means. 

It must be an 'American'' thing that we Australians don't understand.
But I do believe the US President is allowed to use the term "Mexican"....?