Chakster... Your argument seems to be that boron pipe is no longer available. I agree. The rest of your argument makes no sense. If you are saying nobody nude mounts like your boron pipe example, namiki does it with zirconium tube. Both Namiki and Ogura cut holes through their sapphire / ruby / diamond cantilevers to hold the diamond shaft prior to adhesive and while Namiki does only use glue for their Boron cantilevers Ogura has the typical mounting method used in all of your referenced pictures. dave |
Chakster, It is being done this way for a reason. Modern adhesives are very strong and light. It is easier to align the stylus and keep it aligned while the glue is set by UV. The square shank indexes the cut surface of the cantilever which is set at the right angle. The end result is much lighter and tough enough to stand regular service. It is easier to knock the stylus off if the cartridge is miss handled. There is nothing special about those old cantilevers. That diamond cantilever is a boat anchor. It is too short and way to fat, an experiment perhaps. If nobody else does it that way there is a reason. Lasers are better than ever. Blasting a little hole through a cantilever is child's play. But, then you are left with the mass of material beyond the stylus hole in exactly the wrong place. What you are showing us is outdated technology. |
@intactaudio I posted before, but look again, those are vintage: This is Sapphire Astrion cantilever of ADC. This is Beryllium cantilever of Victor X1II. This is Titanium Pipe of Victor X1IIE This is Boron Pipe of Technics 205c mk4 This is RUBY cantilever of Dynavector This is Diamond cantilever of Dynavector Aside from the one piece diamond cantilever/tip combo, what historical method of mounting a diamond to a cantilever is no longer available today? Modern method is normally a drop of glue on a rod type cantilevers around stylus tip. SoundSmith methos is a drop of glue in front of the cantilever. Same for Ortofon method. As you know they can’t use a proper method like this anymore, because they don’t have Boron Pipe any longer. Since the Boron considered the most advanced type of the cantilever this this is where we have big difference between old vs. new methods. This is old method, it’s Grace LEVEL II Boron Pipe / Micro Ridge. Nowadays they might have titanium pipe or zirconia pipe, but not Boron Pipe. Under a microscope, the namiki Sapphire cantilever/microridge combo is a thing of beauty but the "retipped" boron / microridge combo sounds substantially better in my experiences. I am not trying to say what is better, this is a personal thing, I’m trying to show a difference on pictures. But comparing same cart with different styli (genuine vs. re-cantilevered) the Boron Pipe was the best sounding and it was genuine. And T echnics explained why. My example is Technics because I can’t add any documents from Grace, Audio-Technica, Sony .... buy Boron Pipe was their choice too (along with Beryllium) for the most expensive models up to the late ’80s - early ’90s. |
Chakster, I agree that the boron pipe and beryllium are no longer available but I was referring to the quoted text for my response. The way the vintage cantilever and stylus mounted together is different from almost anything new.
Aside from the one piece diamond cantilever/tip combo, what historical method of mounting a diamond to a cantilever is no longer available today? Dovers only complaint seems to be centered on the visual look opposed to the actual quality / strength of the junction and I do not consider that alone to be a valid judgement of quality. Under a microscope, the namiki Sapphire cantilever/microridge combo is a thing of beauty but the "retipped" boron / microridge combo sounds substantially better in my experiences. dave |
@halcro
I understand ... so it remains a mystery at least for now.
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Sorry @best-groove, I didn't understand what you were referring to in your previous query.... PROTUBERANCE is something I hadn't previously noticed and I have absolutely no idea what it is or what's its purpose 🤔 If it's any consolation.... the standard Sony XL-88 has exactly the same thing 👀 |
@halcro I propose again the unanswered question:
sony XL 88D
what good is that sphere-like pretuberance located near the cantilever?
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What is not generally accepted, is that the world of ’Analogue Audio’ is as much ’ArtForm’ as it is Science. The fact that so little is known about WHY we are able to hear such differences between cartridges, tonearms, turntables, drive-systems, solid state vs vacuum tube.....should make it obvious that we are in the hands of ’Artists’, ’Creators’ and sometimes even ’Geniuses’ for the advancements in ’Analogue Audio’. Apart from the ’Genius’ of Sony’s one-piece diamond cantilever/stylus....have a good look at the SHAPE of the STRUCTURE.... Why is it shaped like this...? Look at the SHAPE of the Copperhead Tonearm compared to all other tonearms 🧐 Why is it shaped like this...and unlike any other tonearm? And why is there a similarity between these two ’shapings’? Both tonearm and cartridge-cantilever....when in use.....are structurally defined as ’Propped Cantilevers’ NOT pure cantilevers....and the structural forces (Shear and Bending) within ’Propped Cantilevers’ are graphically ’mirrored’ in these ’shapings’ 🔬 I’m not claiming that these ’shapings’ are solely responsible for the fact that the Copperhead is the best tonearm I have heard and the Sony XL-88D the best cartridge...... What I am claiming, is that ’Analogue Audio’ design involves so many arts and sciences that the only way a designer becomes proficient (let alone brilliant), is not only to be highly educated in all the sciences involved.....but more importantly to be mentored by their elder masters and craftsmen who in turn have also been mentored by past masters. This is the nature of artistic endeavour and for it to advance and prosper.....a thriving, inspiring and profitable industry needs to exist to maintain the core of elder craftsmen whilst also attracting new apprentices. This state of affairs has not existed in ’Analogue Audio’ for 30 years and the elder masters and craftsmen have virtually all disappeared together with the vast data-banks they had assembled within their mega-billion $ companies. The result has been, that the recent resurgence of ’Analogue Audio’ has inevitably led to ’self-taught’, under-educated and inexperienced ’newbies’ entering the industry to fill the vacuum. Their sole contribution to the ’Art/Science’ of cartridge, tonearm and turntable design is ’technology’ 🙏 They believe that everything can be improved by the advancements in materials science, computers, lasers, 3D printing, CNC machining, chemistry etc. They are mistaken.....! And so are all the gullible, innocent followers of most of the new analogue products launched over the last 15 years. - This is NOT the ’Golden Age’ of Analogue!!!!!
- The 70s and 80s WERE the ’Golden Age’ of Analogue.
- The digital tape-decks used today are INFERIOR to the analogue ones used in ’The Golden Age’
- The recordings produced today are INFERIOR to those of the ’The Golden Age’
- The quality of records themselves are INFERIOR to those stamped in ’The Golden Age’
- The cartridges produced today are generally INFERIOR to those of ’The Golden Age’
- The tonearms produced today are generally INFERIOR to those of ’The Golden Age’
- The turntables produced today are generally INFERIOR to the ’great’ ones of ’The Golden Age’
Why am I so sure about these statements.....? Because I have listened to so many products from the past as well as the present, just like Chakster has 🧐 Most dissenters from this viewpoint have simply not had the same depth of listening experiences with those ’hard-to-obtain’ products. Why is technology NOT the ’silver bullet’ for ’Analogue’? - Why can no-one paint or sculpt like Michelangelo 500 years ago?
Today we have better paints and power tools? - Why can no-one make a violin to compete with a Stradivarius made 400 years ago?
Today we have all the power tools, CNC machines, 3D printers and new chemistry for lacquers - Do you think today’s mosaic or stained glass industry could compete with that of the Byzantine or Gothic eras?
- Do you think today’s watches are better than those made 30-60 years ago?
Today we have all the technology to ensure they are....but they’re NOT! The Swiss Watch Industry (just like the Analogue Audio Industry) was virtually wiped out in the 80’s and 90’s with the revolution of ’digital’ watches. Dozens of small firms disappeared and only Rolex and Patek Philippe maintained their ownership structure. Luckily.....unlike the audio industry.....the digital revolution was shortlived and a sudden huge consumer market developed for high-horology and ’Statement’ analogue watches which is almost out of control....🤯 This allowed those artisans and elder craftsmen in the Swiss industry to be retained and to mentor a new wave of apprentices, but the new watches of High-Horology produced today, are very much created the same way as in the past with hand-finishing vastly valued over machine-finishing. Watches from the 60’s and ’70s continue to set the multi-million dollar records at auctions. - Do you think that in 20 years time, anyone will be able to design and produce a naturally aspirated Flat 6, V10 or V12 that will be better than today’s Porsche, Lamborghini and Ferrari ones?
Not a chance!!! The ’Golden Age’ of the internal combustion engine is at an end and never again will the world be able to match or improve upon engines from this period. The same applies to the Golden Age of Analogue Audio 🤗 * The views expressed above are solely those of Halcro and not supported or condoned by anyone who derives a current living within the Audio Industry |
Dave, current Boron ROD and vintage Boron PIPE are completely different things. You’re right that re-tipped version is new, but original version is Boron Pipe (hollow pipe with laser mounted tip through the pipe). Boron PIPE no longer available, just like Beryllium (no longer available). Those two are common versions used for the best cartridges in the past, but not today! Read Dover's post. |
The way the vintage cantilever and stylus mounted together is different from almost anything new. Not sure what you are getting to on this but here are Namiki's current offerings. The retipped boron cantilever you refer to looks suspiciously close to stock.dave |
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After all, there is a reason that both Edgewear and I are stunned by this cartridge
what good is that sphere-like pretuberance located near the cantilever? |
Chakster it's funny but the biggest blob of glue is on Technics.
With laser it's possible to inscribe Chakster on diamond tip.
Although it's question of money and time. Who'll pay for that?
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Edgewear clearly has no sense of humor, and just as clearly had not seen the film. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matador_(film)“While Eva is telling the detective what she has heard, Ángel’s psychiatrist ( Carmen Maura) calls the detective to tell him that Ángel has seen Diego and María in a vertigo trance, and that they are in danger. Ángel is able to guide them to María’s house. Just as the police, Ángel, Eva, and the psychiatrist arrive, an eclipse begins and they hear a gunshot. María has stabbed Diego between the shoulder blades and shot herself in the mouth as they were making love. Viewing the scene, the detective says that it is better this way and that he has never seen anyone happier.” |
if you are drilling with laser hole usually it’s round I don’t think so. This is a proper construction of of Boron Pipe cantilever and Nude Stylus assemble. A tip mounting hole made using a laser beam. This is pretty much the same that another Japanese company made with Grace LEVEL II but with at least one serious advantage over the Technics. The difference is the type of the low mass stylus tip. When you comparing Elliptical with MicroRidge you know that Elliptical simply can’t win. Furthermore, type of the cantilever and the whole moving mass is very important according to this Technics research: "Somewhere in the high frequencies, every cartridge has an undesirable resonance point. Undesirable because there the frequency response curve climbs a sudden peak. If that peak is in the audible range, your records sound not as intended. That resonance frequency is determined by the total effective moving mass of the vibrating system - the summed masses of the diamond stylus and, most importantly, the cantilever and magnet, etc. To shift that harmful resonance frequency up into the high supersonics, the effective moving mass must be reduced to the lowest possible minimum. Also, too much effective moving mass increases the mechanical impedance, thereby negatively affecting the cartridge’s tracing ability." Cartridges i am talking about are both have very low moving mass and similar exotic hollow pipe cantilevers. But Grace LEVEL II has much better suspension/damper compared to Technics mk4 (100 or 205 series). Also much better LC-OFC coil wire utilized in LEVEL II model, this is RUBY EXP model. This is Sapphire Astrion cantilever of ADC. This is Beryllium cantilever of Victor X1II. This is Titanium Pipe of Victor X1IIE This is Boron Pipe of Technics 205c mk4 This is RUBY cantilever of Dynavector This is Diamond cantilever of Dynavector Check my linked files before they are gone. All images taken by myself using my own carts. The way the vintage cantilever and stylus mounted together is different from almost anything new. |
if diamond is square and hole is round you have to use glue.
if you are drilling with laser hole usually it's round
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@mijostyn I mean no glue. The Soundsmith ruby cantilever looks like a toilet brush with crap on the end compared to the 1980's Sumiko Talisman S. There is no comparison - the Soundsmith is crude. Having said that I like the Soundsmith cartridges in general. Check out the Soundsmith ruby cantilevers here and see the wads of glue supporting the diamond https://www.sound-smith.com/options-cantilever-and-stylus-shapesNow here check out the sapphire cantilever with microridge stylus https://ad-na-shop-en.myshopify.com/products/サファイアカンチレバー-マイクロリッジ針 Even though the current Namiki sapphire cantilever/microridge stylus is a bit cleaner than the Soundsmith, what I am saying is that the sapphire cantilever/microridge stylus in the Talsiman S from the 80's appears to be far higher quality than what is on offer today, and the mounting is much cleaner, even though it was made by Namiki back then. Maybe their current offering is a dumbed down version, I dont know. All I can see is that the 80's sapphire cantilevers with microridge styli as used by Sumiko at the time appear to be of a far higher quality than what is on offer today. I wish I had the tools to photograph the Talisman stylus - you would be shocked. |
@mijostyn, I’m no expert in boxing, but if I’m not mistaken the heavier individual usually wins. This seems to be an argument pro higher mass, which runs contrary to your - uh - point.
It seems the less effective mass the better, which is probably the reason diamond cantilevers are kept very short to compensate its higher intrinsic mass, apart from possible cost considerations. But then again, all else equal the joint pipe then needs to be longer, which also adds weight. Some manufacturers of boron cantilevers use what appears to be a metal piece between it and the stylus (Transfiguration Proteus for example), which presumably adds weight as well. I think these are sourced from Ogura. I’ve also seen ruby and sapphire cantilevers made by Namiki that don’t have blobs of glue either. Instead you see a dark vertical shading of what appears to be hole in the mineral in which the stylus is slotted, probably with the help of a little adhesive.
Apart from the one piece assembly from Sony, the nicest solution I’ve seen is on Entré cartridges of the 80’s. Their EC-30 integrated headshell model has a fairly long boron cantilever with a V-shaped incision at the very end, in which a very small stylus tip nearly fits with one side of the stylus visible from the front view. There are no visible remnants of glue, so the bonding appears quite seamless. The same method is applied to the otherwise identical Soltair II, which has a very short oblique cut diamond (or perhaps sapphire, there's no information available) cantilever. I’ve never seen this construction anywhere else and don’t know who made them. I’ve even had my Japanese contact ask information from Matsudaira San at MSL, who designed these cartridges. Unfortunately it remains an unanswered question.
So there are many methods, each with their own merits and they all seem to work very well. As mentioned so many times, it’s the mixing and matching of all the parts that creates the final result. It seems that combinations are virtually endless and to me hearing these different results has become one of the most fascinating aspect of this hobby.
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I wonder if Namiki or whoever still makes cantilevers/styli are delivering to the standard that was being delivered back in the mid 80’s. Our audio market is so miniscule in the scheme of things. In analog era nearly all those exotic cantilevers were widely used in MM and MI design too, none of them used today even in astronomically priced MC. We’re in the digital era where analog is something exotic, for audiophiles it is also must be expensive by default (this is marketing). I think this is the main difference between 70s/80s and 2021. However, some of those high quality cartridges were not cheap in the 70s/80s, but vinyl was the main media format for all. Industry made so many amazing cartridges back then so we could still buy them (NOS or almost unused). When MM thread was so popular on audiogon many forgotten models were discovered by enthusiasts and audiophiles, the goal was the price vs. performance. 20 years ago with zero interest from the majority of audiophiles to vintage high-end MM or MC the prices were funny, almost nothing, something like $50-250 for amazing cartridges. Some of those funny priced cartridges from the late 70’s - early 80s were deadstock (unused) samples with Berylliym, Ruby, Sapphire, Boron Pipe, Ceramic Pipe and even Diamond cantilevers. Always Nude Diamond and often the best profiles like MicroRidge, MicroLine, Parabolic ... you name it. Even aluminum cantilever was completely different from what the market can offer today. Same about tonearms from that era and turntables (imo). For younger generation the only chance to buy something exceptionally good without paying too much is to study and learn what was the best and why! Next step is to find it in perfect condition. The process is interesting, but not for everyone. The industry today will not offer anything close for affordable price, the industry will offer their best for their target audience - rich audiophiles (usually for insane price). There are many superior things in those old designs comparing to the new in the same price category made today. Superior sound quality, after all, is the reason why people like the OP and others still looking for the best from the past! And they can identify where is the real gem or total junk. |
@dover, all modern cartridges use nude styli except the very cheapest ones which still use a shank. I thick what you mean is mounted without glue? I get the same image when I look at the Soundsmith ruby cantilever and diamond.
Modern adhesives dry to be extremely hard, just ask your dentist. There is an advantage to gluing the stylus to the end of the cantilever. Effective mass. You don not have to have extra cantilever at the end to hold the stylus. Diamond cantilevers have one major disadvantage. They are very heavy relative to boron which affects tracking and record wear. I think if you ask Peter Ledermann he would probably tell you that the extra mass was unacceptable. The stiffness of diamond can be matched by increasing the diameter of the boron cantilever a little still maintaining a weight advantage. The difference is like comparing a 200 lb individual with a 135 lb individual. Who do you think will win that boxing match? |
@halcro If they could do this in the 1980s before CNC machines, 3D Printing and Computer-Controlled Lasers. Just a correction - Namiki was using lasers to manufacture nude mounted styli in jewelled cantilevers back in the 80's I believe - for example the micro ridge/microscanner styli in sapphire cantilevers. Last year I wiped out my Koetsu on my secondary turntable - rummaging through my parts bin I found a couple of Talisman S from the 80's. Interestingly one was mint original, the other had been retipped by Garrot Bros. What blew me away was when cleaning them up and checking the stylus condition, the original, which had a nude mounted diamond in a sapphire cantilever, struck me as a work of art - both stylus and sapphire tube were as clear as crystal and there appeared to be no glue at all, the joint was seamless, and I could see straight through both the tube and stylus as if there were nothing there - if you have seen an xray of a pin embedded in a bone, thats what it looked like, except crystal clear. When I look at the current price of moving coils - most dont have nude mounted styli until you get to the upper levels and there are some very expensive MC's out there with huge dobs of glue stuck on the end of the cantilever with a diamond embedded in the glue. It does make you wonder how important what type of cartridge screws you use or how long you left the angels hair wire used in the coils in the sacred vat when all said and done the stylus, trying to the measure the microgroove vibrations, whilst generating humungous amount of friction, is mounted in glue. I wonder if Namiki or whoever still makes cantilevers/styli are delivering to the standard that was being delivered back in the mid 80's. Our audio market is so miniscule in the scheme of things.
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@halcro Yes, I’ve wondering about that too. Digital manufacturing technologies are readily available, but probably still too expensive for the audio ’industry’. I’m afraid our little hobby is too insignificant to use these. Unfortunately industrial powerhouses like Sony aren’t bothered by phono cartridges anymore. Too bad I guess. Ortofon does use modern 3D laser printing technology for the manufacture of their titanium ’body parts’. They would probably be the only company dedicated to phono catridges with the resources to do something similar with a cantilever/stylus.
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@dover I have no reason to doubt Mori San's instincts.... After all, there is a reason that both Edgewear and I are stunned by this cartridge 🤯 What I cannot for the life of me understand though, is why today.....in the 2020s....it is not a piece of 'cake' to emulate this one-piece synthetic diamond design??? If they could do this in the 1980s before CNC machines, 3D Printing and Computer-Controlled Lasers......we should be able to do this today.... better, faster and cheaper without even trying 🥳 Have you seen what they are doing with casting and machining synthetic sapphire crystal watch cases....? 🧐 As a side-note..... HERE is a Sony XL-88D that has just appeared for auction on Japan Yahoo. Expect it to go for around 240,000 Yen 🤪 |
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@unreceivedogma, judging from your graphic description you must be the one enjoying ’mental masturbation’. Keep it up!
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@halcro @edgewear
The point of difference with the Final Audio/Sony XL88D cartridges are that the stylus and cantilever are cut from one diamond piece, there is no glue, no nude mounting.
As far as I am aware these are the only cartridges made with cantilever/stylus cut from one piece. According to Yoshihisha Mori his aim was to eliminate the glue joint, he believed most of the benefit of a diamond cantilever is lost if the stylus is glued.
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You sound like you find yourself in a situation roughly analogous to that film by Pedro Almodovar where two lovers are in a rapturous embrace, then the female pulls out a knife, and as he climaxes, she stabs him under the theory that his act of dying keeps his climax going very very hard for the longest finite amount of time.
Is it something like that?
Please, pray tell …
FILE UNDER: the size of an audiophile’s speakers are in inverse proportion to the size of some of his other equipment. |
Dear @edgewear : ""
what has been the reason of your decision never to use diamond as cantilever material. Just curious! ""
It's obvious that he has very good reasons not use that material in the cantilever.
He is a cartridge designer but it's not the only today cartridge designer and exist at least 5 of them that use that synthetic diamond in some of their designs: Dynavector from the old times, Koetsu, ZYX that a little weird but today its top of the line series does not uses synthetic diamond but carbon cantilevers, Etsuro and Ortofon but this Denmark manufacturer choosed to use syntethic diamond after one century from was founded because never did it in the past and did it just for this way important anniversary ( the Anna too but is not usual with this company. ).
I think that JC can't post something about that could cause a controversy between he and his manufacturer colleagues. Btw, he already listened the 88D and even that .....! ?
Of course that we audiophiles want to know about, more than" just curiosity ".
There are today several cartridge designers that for whatever reasons really don't " trust " in synthetic diamond for their top of the line cartridges: Lyra, Clearaudio, Denon ( never used that material. ), Audio Technica, My Sonic Lab, VdH, ZYX, Allaerts, Ikeda, Shelter, EMT,SoundSmith, Benz Micro, etc, etc.
In the old times very well regarded manufacturers neither use synthetic diamond: Accuphase, Audiocraft, Denon, Audio Note, Goldbug, FR, Technics, and many others.
Btw and due that you are " collecting " that kind of cartridges you need to put your hands in the Highphonic D15 ( ex-Denon workers. ) and the Supex 1100D ( I owned the 1100 R that's really good performer . ).
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Who need this? Anyone who thinks diamonds have an intrinsic value, rather than just being something to sell to pepole with too much money, who do not know how much these trinkets are marked up... after the near-slave labor harvests them.
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Dear @halcro yes, I follow your logic. My ears sure aren't getting any better with aging and mild tinnitus for good measure. In fact I wasn't too sure I would be able to hear the things you had described. But thankfully I did and will make an effort to get the most out of it. While curiosity to discover new things is one of the human qualities that makes life interesting, this could very well be my 'final' cartridge.
Like you I have many cartridges, all with different strengths (and weaknesses). To give a few examples: for sheer tonal beauty there's Miyabi, for speed and explosive micro dynamics there's VdHul Colibri, for ballooning macro dynamic crescendo's there's Ikeda 9 Rex, for ultimate detail retrieval there's Transfiguration Proteus, etcetera. Obviously I haven't heard all the contenders and Lyra Atlas (or Olympos) is still on my 'must hear' list.
But so far none of these cartridges can do it ALL at the same time in the same self-evident manner as the Final/Sony. The way I see it, designers active today should make an effort to hear it and study it as a benchmark. Perhaps some current designs already have these same capabilities. If so, I'd like to hear (about) it.
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@edgewear I've just joined your nightmarish scenario. A cartridge with irreplacable cantilever, irreplacable stylus and irreplacable sound! I completely share your sentiments and I'm glad I followed your lead! I'm so pleased for you my friend.... 👏 And I'll never forget your kindness in NOT bidding in the auction for my Sony XL-88D so that I would have a better chance..... Your eloquent description of some of the feelings elicited by this stylus reinforces the spine-tingling excitement I also feel every time I switch from a different cartridge...... It's hard to describe and even harder to convey to others..... YouTube videos are unable to capture all the qualities projected into the listening room. There is one light at the end of the tunnel for our mutual 'conundrum'...... As we get older, the listening hours available to us are inevitably decreasing so that the 'value' proposition of listening to this cartridge rather than some of our other ones is increasing.....if you follow this logic? 🥴 The fact that this Thread inspired you to follow my lead into the 'abyss' is justification alone for my efforts...and if anyone else has profited from reading the contributions here, it may have saved the few remaining vintage cartridges like ours from lying dormant in some drawers...? Happy listening @edgewear....💍 |
is is very difficult for many of us to audition these cartridges. Get invited to the house of someone who has a head with a cantilevered diamond and you take away your curiosity. Today airline tickets are very cheap, it is not impossible to make a trip to go and listen. |
If I may, a question for Jonathan.
Some cartridge designers use super short cantilevers. As the stylus tracks the groove it moves in an arc. With a short cantilever this arc has a very small radius. Would this cause an inter channel phase shift as the stylus rotates relative to the modulation on each wall ?
Cheers |
Dear Jonathan, thanks for your response. I agree I got a pretty good deal and the cartridge is in excellent condition and by visual inspection the stylus doesn't seem to have many hours on it.
My initial impressions are above, but I will certainly try all set up approaches to get the best out of it. It now sits at the end of an Audiocraft AC-4400, with the oil damping around 50%, VTA with the arm in horizontal position, VTF at 1,5 grams and loading impedance at 500 ohms.
I would still like to hear from you what has been the reason of your decision never to use diamond as cantilever material. Just curious!
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Hi @edgewear:
>The auction ended yesterday at a smidgen under 200.000 JPY and I’m happy to disclose that my Japanese contact has won it!<
200,000 JPY is quite a bargain. Today Namiki-Adamant charges significantly more for their top diamond cantilever only (no cartridge included).
https://www.ad-na.com/en/product/jewel/product/shop_diamond_microridge.html
IOW you got a discount on the cantilever, and the cartridge for free! 😊
>The spec sheet of XL-44 (with 49mm distance) even claims that variations within that 2mm range don’t impact sound quality. I’ve also noticed that Ortofon is not too meticulous about observing the required 51mm collar to stylus distance for the SPU’s. I’m well aware this runs against the grain of the meticulous P2S alignment methods considered mandatory today, but in practice it does seem to work fine without audible distortion.<
>What are your thoughts about this?<
More than one vintage Japanese tonearm was designed without accurate calculations for horizontal tracking geometry (applies equally to Lofgren A, Lofgren B, or Stevenson). In some cases hitting the null points requires that the cartridge be twisted significantly in the headshell. When the cartridge cannot be twisted because it is housed in an integrated headshell, how important is precise overhang?
>As a good audiogon citizen I will report back when I have taken delivery of this Takai Lab Final MC.<
Looking forward to your initial impressions. Longer-term, I recommend that you try out a variety of setup approaches at your leisure until you can ferret out how to make it sing at its finest.
kind regards, jonathan
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Once again, Halcro started this thread with the question ’who needs a diamond cantilever?’ He answers affirmative and so do I. If you don’t, good for you. Do whatever comes natural to you.
But I hope you don’t mind if I continue my ’mental masturbation’, a choice of words which does sound a teeny weeny little bit condescending, wouldn’t you agree?
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best -groove, is is very difficult for many of us to audition these cartridges. We frequently have to make buying decisions based on our assessment of the technologies involve and on the opinion of others. These discussions can aid people in making decisions to buy or not buy a specific cartridge. There absolutely nothing vital about this hobby. There is nothing life or death here. So, if you do not want to get involved I'm absolutely sure it will not cause you any ill effect. There are other places you can talk about music. |
Baaahhhh.... I read many hypotheses and theories that lead nowhere; but is it so important that it is a matter of life and death to know how important it is or not to have a diamond cantilever rather than anything else?
I have a cartridge with a diamond cantilever but I will not tear my hair or engage in grueling discussions if I had the cantilever in other less noble material.
More music and less mental masturbation would be of absolute importance.
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@halcro I've just joined your nightmarish scenario. A cartridge with irreplacable cantilever, irreplacable stylus and irreplacable sound! I completely share your sentiments and I'm glad I followed your lead!
@jcarr & @dover,
I promised to be a good audiogon citizen and report on the Takai Lab Final MC, equipped with the Sony one piece diamond cantilever/stylus. So here goes:
It has been playing records these past two days in a way that is leaving an indelible impression on my ears and soul, while knowing that each record played moves it closer to its inevitable 'end of cycle'. So I'm going to use it sparingly on non casual listening sessions with the best sounding records I have in house.
This will be really hard to do, as EVERY record sounds special with this device. Its sonic character can be described as warm and wide open at the same time, that most difficult of ying/yang balancing acts. Also special is the way it handles dynamic crescendo's, which blow up like a balloon in all directions and always with the feeling that it can get bigger yet. Which sure enough it does when the music calls for it.
But the most extraordinary characteristic is the way it folows the musical argument and handles the inner voices, meaning all sorts of musical lines normally buried in the mix that are clear as day and easy to follow. One of my favorite pieces of music is Luciano Berio's Folk Songs, performed by Cathy Berberian and the Juilliard Ensemble conducted by the composer (on RCA UK pressing). The instruments jump up on you like 'African rabbits' (to quote Arthur Salvatore's phrase to describe scary real dynamic jumps of even the friendliest of instruments). It's these kinds of little epiphanies that glue you to the listening seat. Not using this cartridge constantly in an attempt to extend its lifespan will require restraint which will probably be good for character, but also a mild form of torture. But Halcro gave all the warning signals......
It's impossible to say if all of this can be attributed to the one piece diamond cantilever/stylus, but I know for a fact that none of my other cartridges can make this same kind of impression. Edge of the seat stuff indeed!
PS: my sincere apologies for this interruption. Now the other folks can continue to go on off topic again about MM, MI, SG and all manner of subjects that have nothing whatsoever to do with diamond cantilevers.😱
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@rauliruegas, yes, that is what is responsible for the brightness I think. That does not bother me so much as I can correct any frequency response problem. I would just store a target curve specifically for the cartridge. The Win was a very poor tracker for reasons I do not understand. Ledermann however insists that wear is so low (tracking so good) that you can play lacquer masters repeatedly without wear.
For those reading this that do not know how a strain gauge cartridge works; a strain gauge is a small device that changes resistance with stress. If you send a regulated DC voltage through the strain gauge vibrations from the record will alter the resistance which then alters the voltage. The DC is then removed leaving a modulated AC signal representing the music. It is a more direct way of of creating the signal than waving a coil in front of a magnet or a magnet in front of a coil. There were two that I know of historically, The Win Labs and Panasonic had several models I believe. None of them did well here in the States.
Now Peter Ledermann has introduce another model which has reviewed well other than that brightness. I would like to see a comparison to the DS audio optical cartridge. |
Dear @mijostyn : The SG overall concept is just great and I think superior to the other kind of cartridge designs but exist a little problem and that's that the LPs comes with the RIAA eq. and SG does not follows that standard and exist frequency deviations from there.
As you know in audio everything has its own trade-offs and the SG is not an exception.
R.
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@rauliruegas , There are several who have said the SG leans to the bright side of things. It is an alluring concept. I had a Win Labs cartridge for about one month. It was awful, the worst cartridge I have ever owned.
Peter Ledermann is convinced it is his best cartridge. Both the SG and the current mode setup will cost about the same $9k, the current mode maybe a little more with a My Sonic Lab cartridge. |
tery9 : You win, good. Nothing wrong with that.
R. |
mijostyn : I know that RIAA is for velocity sense transducer where the strain gauge is an amplitud transducer and in both designs exist trade-offs.
Exist several SG owners that are truly satisified with. Maybe you could try too.
R. |
@rauliruegas
They are not wrong, Raul. Boron and ruby are cheaper. Diamond is more expensive and harder to work. |
mijostyn, you can try current mode but if your choice is a strain gauge one remember that this is a dedicated item for that cartridge.
Btw, years ago were a discussion thread talking about the SS strain gauge where , in those times, the unit does not conforms with the RIAA standard and the designer asaid that its unit in " natural " way conforms ( more or less. ) with the RIAA. There was proved that was not exactly true.
In that time the manufacturer posted on the SG : "" it was +/- 1dB from 50 Hz to 12K in "" ( a 2db swing. ) way out of RIAA standard. I don’t know it performs today in that regards.
I don’t know, today, for sure about.
R. |
@terry9 : Again, assuming you are rigth ( no evidence about in this specific application. Facts. ) then all cartridge designers, not only JC, are wrong .
So, why don't try to prove them that they are wrong and must leave to use boron as material in their cantilever cartridge.
R. |
@rauliruegas, I have a wonderful sounding phono stage, an ARC PH3 SE with super low noise tubes installed. It has two Sowter 1990 transformers installed which I can adjust for pretty much any moving coil cartridge. The Sowters have their own inputs and inside I installed another terminal strip which forms a bridge to the input stage. For high output cartridge use I just disconnect the terminal strip.
I know you prefer SS phono stages but this is the most solid state sounding tube phono stage I have heard. It does have a FET input stage and it uses 6922 tubes which are no where near as colored as 12AX7s.
I am going to add either a current mode phono stage or a strain gauge
set up eventually. What are your feelings on this subject? |
