Yes, please compare with your MC462.
Which Class D Amplifier? PS Audio, Ghent, Nord, Merrill or other???
I’m looking for a new amp & want Class D.
I’ve seen various brands mentioned, such as PS Audio, Ghent, Nord, Merrel to name a few, but I’ve not heard any of them.
Which company is producing the best sounding Class D?
Which models should I be looking to demo?
Thanks
I’ve seen various brands mentioned, such as PS Audio, Ghent, Nord, Merrel to name a few, but I’ve not heard any of them.
Which company is producing the best sounding Class D?
Which models should I be looking to demo?
Thanks
503 responses Add your response
I found this poking around a bit. I'm using PSA's new M1200 at the moment with a McIntosh MC462 in the shop. They are pretty slick with my McIntosh C47. I have no reason to want them to sound good to an audio forum (i.e. no investment yet....30 day trial, etc.). Anyway...pretty solid thread. I'm not sure about other class d amps, but the M1200s have a tube on the input. I've had them for a couple of weeks now (getting used quite a bit because of the pandemic, I'm a music lover, etc.). |
I heard Merrill amps at Capital Audiofest a couple years back running a pair of German Physiks speakers. Model may have been Veritas but not sure. The sound was crisp neutral detailed and top notch all around. The amps seemed to drive the speakers pretty effortlessly. Nothing to object to, very much what I was expecting. The sound was much like a pair of well set up Quad Electrostats or MLs, except the GP speakers are omnidirectional and not ES and the bass was all there but well integrated into the overall Omni sound presentation. It was not unlike what I hear with the Bel Canto Class D amps I use with my Ohm Walsh speakers , but were more pricey at the time as I recall. Same true of the GP speakers. |
Hello mapman, Since Merrill came out with their new line of Element amps using the faster switching GaN transistors, they're getting a lot of pairs of Veritas back as trade-ins on the element amps. Merrill told me they're checking these out thoroughly and making any necessary tune-ups and reselling them for about $5K/pair. It looks like a good time to buy a pair if you're interested. I've only read all the extremely positive reviews on these but never heard them in person. But these have always seemed like ideal amps for me in both performance and form. I'm currently making two upgrades to my system; buying a pre-owned pair of Magnepan 3.7i to replace an almost 25 years old pair of 2.7QR and a Levinson 326S preamp to replace a Parasound Halo P-6 preamp. I also picked up a new Oppo 205, at an acceptable premium price of $2,100, to replace my current Oppo 105. I'll be using the 205 and a 20 TB Synology NAS with a Lumin D2dac/streamer as sources. I believe my 1,200 watt D-Sonic mono-blocks and 3.7i speakers will prove to be a good match. If not, I'll probably buy a pre-owned pair of Veritas from Merrill. Could you share your impressions of the Veritas? Thanks, Tim |
Of these The only ones I have heard were Merrill. Those sounded very good as well they should in that they were somewhat pricey. I have not heard the PS Audio but from what I know about the company and what I read about their latest Class D amps including the price, I would lean that way if I needed to replace my current Bel Canto Class D amps today. |
Tim Putting together a system that does all types of music well that fits into any budget requires a lot of knowledge that starts with power conditioning, power cords/speaker cables/interconnects, source, amp, and ultimately speakers. A lot of this depends on room size: mine is quite large requiring high wattage amps and bigger speakers to create a proper SPL IMHO, open baffle speakers are essential in order to get a wide and deep sound stage. I have Emerald Physics KCIIs which are absolute bargains in the ~ $2K range, but my room is large, and although I have 2 SVS 12" powered subs, I could not get them to blend. I am anxiously awaiting a pair of EP 2.8s, each speaker has 2 @ 15" carbon fiber woofers and one 12" concentric carbon fiber mid-range. Both of these models have won TAS awards. I have a dedicated 20 amp line + Core Power 1800, soon will add Deep Core Long ago I followed Paul McGowan’s lead and went to completely deferentially balanced components. My cables/interconnects of choice are WireWorld 8 series In the last 2 years the class D amps I’ve owned includes EP 100.2SEs, Audio Alchemy DPA-1 (which, even at half the power, I much preferred to the EPs), PS Audio M700s, which I probably would still have today, but it took too long to find a buyer for the AA amp, so I sold them, which turned out to be a blessing as their sale provided the money to buy the EVS 1200, which runs circles around all the others mentioned and very fairly priced My current source is a Oppo 105 with upgraded power supply and IEC + Ag wire to the power supply board which made a HUGE improvement I chose the 105 for audio only as it allows me to play redbook, SACD and DVD-A via it’s variable volume control at a very reasonable price hth |
Hello tweak 1, I continue to be interested and intrigued by class D amps in general. I know it's the best method for those with a limited budgets to attain very good performance in their systems because that's the main reason I tried my 1st one, a stereo Class D Audio SDS-440-CS amp, for $630 almost 10 years ago along with a healthy dose of curiosity. I think once I realized, or any other new user who dares to give class D a try will quickly realize, just how well a good quality class D amp actually performs in their system this progresses naturally to thoughts, a strong interest and curiosity about the current and future capabilities of this not so new technology. Of course, an adventurous approach to good system sound also requires its seekers to have the dual benefits of an open mind and a lack of an irrational allegiance to traditional amp technologies. In my case, this curiosity led to buying a 2nd class D amp, a stereo Emerald Physics EP-100.2SE amp and a 3rd, my current pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks. I've noticed a significant upgrades in performance on my Magnepans with each amp but they all are very good and still in use in my combination 2-ch music and 5.4 surround system. I'm currently very satisfied with my system's overall performance but my curiosity about how good class D can perform still remains. However I've also realized that to attain another significant upgrade in performance via a class D amp, it'll likely require buying one of the generally considered top performance echelon of class D amps such as a pre-owned pair of Merrill Veritas or Mola Mola Kartugas. Ultimately, I believe the truth is that I'm just a music lover that's in search of a system that I really enjoy hearing music through. Ideally, I know I want a system that sounds as close to live musicians playing in my room, or that I've been transported to a realistic venue the musicians are playing in. The music has the same full range as live music from deep bass to high treble and all the tones in between, with the same dramatic dynamic range capacities and tonal accuracy. I'm even okay with it being artificially enhanced if it means the soundstage images are more solid, stable and natural because that just gives the sense of more realism. I get this high quality reproduction now on high quality recordings but think I'd just like it more often. I also realize that class D has no monopoly on high quality sound and, in the spirit of keeping an open mind, I'm not going to restrict my amp type options as I continue my search for further system improvements. I continue to prefer class D because of its many non-audio quality advantages, but sound quality and fidelity remain my primary concerns. Tim |
I am scheduled to get a prototype soon. Could they possibly be "THAT' much better? You are "really blessed" to get the usually closely guarded prototype to evaluate from a manufacturer without being affiliated to them in any way. If it's been designed to use GaN's Technology to it's "full" capabilities, to fix the two problems with present day Class-D, "switching frequency and dead time" problems, as Technics have done in the SE-R1 (but they do need small heat sinks) with the 1.5mhz switching speed that it's capable of, there is no doubt it will sound far better than the Icepower-1200AS2 modules, as they have those 2 problems that can't be fixed. If not and he cheaps out some and just uses it like the Merrill's or the AGD, GaN based amps did "without" the higher 1.5mhz switching frequency capabilities, it will be still better than the 1200AS2 based Class-D's, but not as good as the Technics SE-R1 |
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The only class D amp that I've ever heard is the NAD M22 v2. I've paired it with a Herron VTSP-3A (r02) tube preamp. Being able to adjust the gain on both (VTSP set to low; M22 set to mid), with the Herron's 100 step volume control has allowed me to make my Tannoy DC8Ti speakers "sing" with no listening fatigue or glare. I'm quite happy with the M22. |
Getting hung up on theoretical problems (all designs have them) without regard to the audibility of said problems is a waste of time. Am another new convert to pro audio amps. I have been listening to a Crown XLS1502 for the last three weeks driving my PSB T2's. It sounds as good as anything else I've heard. That said, I am not a megabuck audio consumer. The amp I just sold was an NAD C275BEE. Audiophiles don't take pro amps seriously because they're not expensive enough. Too bad. I am getting great sound from a 300wpc/8ohms amp that can deliver over 1000 bridge for mono and lists for just a bit over $400. I paid just under $300 for mine when I lucked into a deal. Buy a used one. Clear the audiophile propaganda about pro equipment out of your mind and listen for a few weeks. If you don't like it, sell it on. |
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I hope that something comes along help you snap out of your obsession with trashing class D It will as I’ve said below, and I don’t trash class-D, I give their "Achilles Heels" x 2 problems they have, that GaN will fix if used like Technics with the SE-R1 did. then I will get one. If you can’t understand that, then that’s your problem. https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1798165 tweak1(jetter, You lose your audience when whatever you have you oversell.) This again will make many think, test pilot? And shouldn't cost much more as it just the GaN transistors vs Mosfet, that are little more expensive. |
tweak1 Really!! so your the test pilot, looks like the members thoughts were right. And also wrong again, it’s just a couple of transistors that’s the difference, the GaN output transistors are a little more expensive than the Mosfets in what you have now. The rest of the amps build cost "should" be no different than what you have now, unless the maker want to price gouge. |
Two IceEdge modules definitely sounded better than one (Sorry, but true). Faster, cleaner and better imaging. My system is extremely revealing and I use naturally recorded music to evaluate. Eliminating the input connector is only one tiny mod I do to the modules. Every single other one I do makes mucho more difference. I even remove the AC connector and the speaker connector. Yes, everything makes a difference What do you mean by "all these tweaks"? You have no idea what most of them are. So, therefore you have no knowledge or truth about them. Most of my mods are not discussed or shown and that is exactly the way I want it. However, the results are known by the resultant sound....which is all that matters. I warrantee the amp for 3 years....parts and labor (transferable). Only those that don’t mod the board have a manufacturers warrantee. The customer gets a warrantee....that is all that matters. The mods I do to the boards do nothing to effect the reliability of the modules. The modules were under development for years and one of the reasons why is to make them the most reliable modules ever. I have not heard of a single person having a problem with an IceEdge module. Simply bulletproof. My mods don’t change that.....the amp is still fully protected. This is why the manual states that if the fuse blows it is a "catastrophic failure"....and therefore you must replace the module. The module is so self protecting that the fuse should never, ever, ever blow. If it does it is either lightning destroying the whole thing or the main diode bridge shorts and takes the fuse out (about as likely as you winning the big lotto). I choose this module because stock it sounds good and I knew I could take it to another level sonically and people who buy with 30 day trial can listen and see for themselves if it is worth the money or not. So far, all the feedback from those that have bought them is really positive.....they are not sending it back. You will see more feedback here and on other forums as customers comment on their new fantastic sounding amps. BTW, two of those that bought my amps previously used the best Mivera amps with the stock stereo IceEdge modules.....so they know first hand how much better my amp is. And one of those two had two Miveras so he was listening in mono. The human choice is simple. Every second you either choose love/joy or judgement. The ego gets locked into the judgement game. When you choose love then all benefit and are happy. When you choose judgement we are all separated and unhappy. Which do you want? Do you want to be happy? If so, stop the constant judging. I try to make each moment a reflection of the divine. I know the blessings and beauty of the world and of life. I still have my judgment moments but they are getting less and less. And as they go away, I and everyone I know is happier. May all be happy. |
In general I agree with you, but my Audio Alchemy DPA -1 or the DPA-1Ms (monos) which got fantastic reviews in The Absolute Sound way back in 2016, aren’t even bringing 50 cents on the dollar So while Rics amp could fall price-wise on the used market, IMHO, it’s a risk worth taking. Keep in mind he is a boutique builder with a following: the $2200 EVS 1200 is a much better amp than the M700s (which are vg amps and a very good value @ $2999, but regularly sold used < $2000), so the EVS 1200 is likely to keep it’s value, and possibly even be worth a lot more to those who actually know what's what |
Ric, sorry, but this kind of stuff from people without a clue is bound to surface gfi, let me get this straight, if a 100 lemmings jumped off a cliff they were all smart? You come across as much smarter, but your GaN only mantra holds you back. BTW, I will have a 200w GaN prototype soon. Even if it is amazingly better, it will cost significantly more, and out of range of my budget. hey golfnutz, what do you think is inside the $2999 PSAudio M700s? Even if was 24 karat gold, it is simply not in the EVS 1200s class sonically. How do I know? I owned them, too aber, maybe 12-15 years ago I bought 2 resistor ladder enumerators that EVS made. I'm not even sure whether I bought it direct from Ric, or second hand. The only contact since then was when I had questions about the amp several months ago and ordered it |
First of all, there's no difference between 2 x 1200AS1, and 1 1200AS2. I had 2 x 1200AS2 and 2 didn't sound better than 1. Just a waste of money. The $300 module sounds the same as 2 modules for $500. Secondly, I tried many of the tweaks you mentioned myself. Since the connectors on the module are JST (tin), again, no improvement on the sound quality - even when using direct connect methods. Do you really think using solder instead of the JST connector makes a difference. All these tweaks amount to nothing, other than an excuse to inflate the price with the appearance of added value. Forget about Manufacture warranty since you've modified the boards. What happens if the changes you've done to the boards causes damage to your clients other equipment (like speakers), are you going to cover the cost for that too? These modules are so cheap that if the main fuse on the module goes, the manufacture won't even attempt to fix it, they just replace the module. The only reason you chose these modules is because of their low OEM costs. Why didn't you pick a different module designed for Audiophiles? |
It's amazing how ignorant and nasty some people act. The mono IceEdge modules cost almost $500 a pair with shipping and duty. My chassis and copper and aluminum plates and drilling and front plate engraving cost way over $300. Then there are expensive Furutech connectors, damping material, copper binding posts, exotic wire, etc. etc. I have close to $1200 in parts in this amp. The standard parts cost to retail is 5 times at least....so this would make a $6000 power amp that wholesale would be 60% or $3600. Then there is the fact that the amp is hand made. Totally tweaked modules, hand made wires, damping material measured and put on, etc. etc. No one in the world would do such things (except me). It is way over 10 hours labor to make one. What would you charge for $1200 in parts, one year of development and 10 hours of tweaky labor? Certainly not $2200 ($2134 after paypal fees) and offer a 30 day unconditional money back guarantee including paying for the shipping to the customer. I certainly am not a good business man. But I get by. The best Mivera Purepower amp sold for $1900 with a single stereo stock module. None of the tweaking and hand made stuff I do. Why can't people be nice? We are better than this. We can be really beautiful. Life is a continuous blessing. I hope you all tune into that channel. Love and Joy is continuously present. Please.....take it, feel it and live it.....it is who you are! |
Do you actually know how much those low priced modules cost? Do you have any idea what the primary market is for these modules? If you thought subs, speaker arrays, and PA amps, you would be correct. The same scenario goes for the $10k usd Rowland Research Continuum 2, It's used a tweaked (by Pascal) Chinese Sanway $100 subwoofer module. Cheers George |
@tweak1 - I mentioned the EVS 1200 a few posts back. I started a thread. It's really amazing , but at $2200, it's like stealing. Are you serious? Do you actually know how much those low priced modules cost? Do you have any idea what the primary market is for these modules? If you thought subs, speaker arrays, and PA amps, you would be correct. @mitch2 is absolutely correct, who is really stealing from who here? I say if anyone should be banned, it would be you for grossly misleading members on these forums. Seriously, $2200? Last I saw on HiFi shark, one of Mivera Purepower 1200AS2 sold for $550 (the case, connectors, wires, etc. probably cost more than the module itself). |
HiFi G being slanderous. What else is new? Do you have a shred of proof? No of course not, but hey, it’s not easy being you. Ric never offered, neither did I ask for a discount, (and why would I with a 30 day money back guarantee?) and neither do I get a commission, nor did I ask for one. Hopefully, this gets you banned |
In a way, since PS Audio’s trade in program takes worthless junk as trades, the trade in program seems like the publishers clearing house entry letters. To enter, you need to put this stamp here, find this sticker and place it here, plus check this box , etc..... worthless effort. You have a worthless piece of gear, we cannot sell it ourselves or the people that get our trade in can’t sell it. However, to unlock a discount , you must send your piece of junk to us. In a way it’s kind of insulting. Just stop giving discounts and be done. Let your product speak for itself. It’s like General Motors cars. The value does not hold because every day there are huge rebates, financing etc |
You cannot buy the IceEdge modules from anyone. They are only sold to OEMs. Not for DIY use. Only the older outdated modules are sold on Parts Express. No one gets a commission by being excited about my products. There is no money for advertising or commissions or whatever. My amps are hand made labors of Love. This is how I have always done business. Even my friends/customers for years and years pay my full "direct wholesale" pricing. They love what I do and naturally come back for more. My amps are sold with 30 day unconditional money back guarantee. Their sound quality speaks for itself. I don't need to "oversell" them (they are not state of the art....just great amps for the money).......my customers will naturally want to turn others on to the super sound quality/bargain they got. They naturally want to help people.....which is my motto. Make others happy. Offer a product that is fantastic for the money. This is probably hard to believe with all the cynicism abounding in our world. There is beauty, there is truth, there is love, there are people who care. there are those who do not take advantage of others....really, it is true. The essence of all of us is truly amazing. Live it now! Share your beauty, truth, love and joy......Everyone wins when you do this. |
You lose your audience when whatever you have you oversell. Got it, just curious, who is stealing from who? Probably all commision based. Their all doing it Mivera, Nord, EVS, Atmasphere all with tweaks saying there’s is better. Sign in and just get one yourself, stereo or mono, far cheaper on line at the bottom of the page here or from one of their worldwide agents. https://icepower.dk/products/amplifier-power-modules/as-series-intelligent-audio-amplifier-power/#1200as2-popup Cheers George |
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Just for the benefit of those who are not familiar with PS Audio’s business model: They have a trade-in program where they discount the product you are buying by the original MSRP of the product you are trading in, up to a limit which is about 30% of the list priceof the piece you are buying. I’ve used this offer twice, once for a pair of M700’s and once for an S300. In both cases I was able to get the maximum discount in return for an old and obsolete piece of equipment that I was no longer using and that could have been sold in the used market for no more than a couple of hundred dollars. This is not as good as just getting 30 or 40 or 50% off from a dealer, but it is certainly better than paying list price. And, yes, I think the PS Audio class D amps sound very good. I am using the M700’s in my main system with a BHK preamp and Directstream DAC (also from PS Audio) and am very happy with the results. |
Tweak As stayed earlier, Paul already said MSRP is the price. When I was shopping for M700s earlier this year, the $2200 you mentioned is about $400 higher than the quotes I was getting. The BHK series was heavily discounted ( around 36-40%). I can see how PSA wants to keep prices high. The BHK250 was on my radar, however, if I were to spend $7500 there are a lot of other optionsthat hold value better ( I’ll never bet that I am buying a final- lifetime piece of equipment ). $4500 - $5500 will be my limited if all goes as planned. Lots of options there as well. The M700 are something I would keep even after I upgraded since I have various uses ( ceiling speakers, deck, landscape, etc). |