When are speakers considered Hi-Fi and not Mid-Fi???

just a RECTIFICATION...

I never said that a 50 bucks vintage speakers sound like a 50,000 bucks speakers...

Second i said that my Tannoy dual gold or Magnepan ( few thousand dollars) in a bad room sound way less good than my 50 bucks Vintage Speakers Mission Cyrus which tannoy and Magnepan exhibit on blueprint paper and by most people experience, included mine, a better design ...THE ROOM BEAT THE SPEAKERS...

Third my vintage headphone from 1978 was the best in the world with Stax Omega, AkG K340... Inform yourself before spitting ignorance ... And optimized by me after 6 months of listening experiments and 6 modifications they beat anything i have listen to including speakers at a relatively low price...I dont speak here about 50,000 bucks speakers in a good room... You catch it ?

And you are deluded because your second rule is meaningless, because for sure people buy what they like listening to... It is a preposterouscommon place fact obervation...The problem is we cannot trust our limited experiences for most of us, and my advice is learn basic acoustic by fun experiments to increase our level of perception because WE ALL MUST LEARN HOW TO LISTEN...No baby is born mature audiophile or marure acoustician or maqture musician..

You did not NAME me but i recognized me... Think twice BEFORE putting absurd claims in my mouth... 😁😊

But I have to say: whoever says a cheap box store $50 pair of speakers sounds just like a $50,000 pair of speakers, or some cheap headphones for 50 years ago…

@mahgister : I am very sorry. I stopped reading your posts a long time ago, before you lost your house. So big apologies I won’t read this. I just know you slammed me, of course in your politically correct, polite, gentle, passive aggressive way. Which is OK. I take it, and I deserve it. Go Orange!
 

However, I would truly like to know what you smoke. I will immediately buy some

I realize you did not think any wrong...

It is me who apologize... I am sorry...

I feel the urge to react too much it seems..

I smoked at the times acoustic articles wrapped in thin ring with a spice in them...😁😊

I wish you the best from my heart... I react too much too often but i did not means any harm just to precise my experience and thoughts ...

@mahgister : I am very sorry. I stopped reading your posts a long time ago, before you lost your house. So big apologies I won’t read this. I just know you slammed me, of course in your politically correct, polite, gentle, passive aggressive way. However, I would truly like to know what you smoke. I will immediately buy some

I smoked at the times acoustic articles wrapped in thin ring with a spice in them...

I apologize deeply for saying this… I am sorry… but I am very disappointed. I was looking forward to a formula. Or a store name ‘ brand.

I wish you the best from my heart... I did not mean any harm.… No animals were hurt while writing my post. Kindest regards 

I cannot recommend my headphone even if they are more than good( because it takes me 6 months to figure out how they work, the design of this headphone is unique, complex and very hard to link to the right components and we must make some internal optimization  and not everyone can take this risk and job) ,

I cannot recommend you my Sansui Alpha because there exist better amplifier anyway and for the price i paid (300) bucks they sell it way higher now and it is less a bargain ..i cannot recommend my basic good dac too as A SOLUTION...

But i can recommend you if you own already basically relatively good components something that will spare you the job to learn acoustic for your speakers/room...

Dr. Choueri BACCH filters... This is a revolution in acoustic... If i had the money it will be my only and last upgrade ...

i can live with my actual headphone systems though because it is anyway the best i listened to including Stax or my past Tannoy dual gold by far...And for 600 bucks... 😊

I apologize deeply for saying this… I am sorry… but I am very disappointed. I was looking forward to a formula. Or a store name ‘ brand.

Recommend…. Hmmmm… too many times in your reply to me. Biggest sincere from the heart kindest yours truly apologizes to you if not directed to me…. But…. Who said I needed any recommendations?

Kindest regards yours  truly … from the heart heartfelt… from the deep heart felt here etc.

I only replied because i think that you wanted a "formula"...Then i recommended Choueri... Perhaps you will be interested by reading about him... Thats all...

There is no simple formula in small room acoustic..

But i give you my dreamed solution to bypass acoustic study... And recommending is not insulting... 😁😉😊

But…. Who said I needed any recommendations?

And recommending is not insulting...

My deepest sincerely kindest regards apologies to you… from the heart felt heart ❤️. Who said anything about insulting? Sincerely not me

I only replied because i think that you wanted a "formula"...

For what you smoke. I got nothing. Except your polite gentle politically correct passive aggressive usual typical blubbering. My deepest sincere heartfelt best regards kindest apologies to you

I will deeply and heartfully accept them because you are full of kindness and humor...

But you rebuked my  explanation by claiming that all i said or ever will say is related to  "smoking"... Sarcasm so gently put  cannot schock me because there is truth in any good will explanation , yours included...

Why not simply accept acoustic  experiments as an explanation ?

i apologize if i could not make that as clear as water....

I will go back to my hole to "smoke" ...And listening music... Perhaps jazz...

My very best to you....

My very best to you… i apologize if i could not make that as clear as water.... My very best to you....

Why not simply accept acoustic experiments as an explanation ?

My dearest sir. It’s an honor…. My very best to you… i apologize if i could not make that as clear as water.... My very best to you.... If you only knew how to point and click in the internet including navigation on this very one and only website you are posting on, you would have quickly realized the acoustic experiments are simply not something unknown to me. My best and kindest regards your honorary dearest friend…

The shortest way to be understood is saying it clearly ...Not waiting for someone to "click" on past thread posts...

Exemple: " yes mahgister i think you are right about acoustic because i experimented with it" already ...Then i will not go further with my "recommendation" at your dismay if i judge by your sarcasm......

is it not good ?

And beside that, other people read this dialogue and perhaps will be more enlightened by discovering that two people think the same about the importance of acoustic no ?

Excessive politeness dont replace clarity...

And by the way i never fake politeness...

And i dont keep grudges...Because i always say what is in my mind on the spot...

«Politeness is true act even when it is a pretend act, at the exclusion of sarcasm» --Groucho Marx learning Chinese 🤓

Excessive politeness dont replace clarity...

Agreed. Why don’t you just do it?

And by the way i never fake politeness...

Right…
 

Here you may have a point...

I try to do it...But perhaps i am not so good at doing it as well as i think...

If i am not clear about something, please ask and say it...i will try my best...

English is not my first language, and i live in quebec city then i never learned it by speaking  but only by reading books with limited vocabulary... ( science and philosophy)

Good night... And thanks for the exhange... I like to discuss...Too much... Perhaps...

Excessive politeness dont replace clarity...

Agreed. Why don’t you just do it?

When are speakers considered Hi-Fi and not Mid-Fi???

To audio snobs the answer is, when they exceed a certain price point.  To music lovers they are meaningless terms. 

What mahgister said..."No product is mid-fi or hi-fi by virtue of his price tag alone for me..."

For example, stratospherically priced Bang & Olufsen is not the first thing to come to mind in discussions of hi-fi.

I own the Heresy IV from the Heritage line... definitely hi-fi.  Startling in a good way, engaging, non-fatiguing... captivating and addictive.  In a bigger room, I'd go for the Forte IV or the Cornwalls.  

I've been away from Audiogon for a while. Nothing has changed.

Lots of good common sense advice. Lots of people with 'x' many years of experience in complete and bitter disagreement about the exact same things in every post here with other people with 'x' many years of experience.

So why not throw my hat in the ring? I don't have 'x' number of year of experience or golden ears by the way.

First, I think Hi-Fi and Mid-fi are perfectly reasonable terms despite having no real concrete parameters. Yes, they are fluid but they can get us in the ball park.

I have an extremely nice system at home. Inherited it. Love it. I have a very nice but more modest system in another room featuring Aerial Acoustics 6Ts. Love it.

At my cabin I have a used NAD integrated and a pair of vinyl wrapped Polk Audio towers all of which cost under $400 total. I love the way this system sounds. The sound stage is frankly amazing.

This leads me to several conclusions, most of which have already been mentioned:

1. Listen to stuff. If you can't then experiment. Find out what makes you happy.

2. The room matters. My rooms at home are not ideal. There is surely a cost. Not enough to matter much to me but in the case of my cabin the speaker placement is a lucky bit of good fortune as they couldn't go anywhere else. But I am certain that's why the Polks sound so good. Do what you can with the room you have.

3. Don't doubt that you can put together a mid-fi system that you will like unless you  think you are acoustically unpleaseable or simply want to get on the audiophile gear treadmill.

Bose is MidFi. Everything else is HiFi.

HIFI-ish and Midfi-ish speakers can be found at almost any price bracket. However, Klipsch heritage speakers have enough design flaws that they can't be considered hifi in comparison to other speakers in similar price brackets.

@thyname 

"But I have to say: whoever says a cheap box store $50 pair of speakers sounds just like a $50,000 pair of speakers, or some cheap headphones for 50 years ago… I want to have what you are smoking."

Since this thread is about midfi or hifi, it would be safe to say that the $50 boombox or bluetooth wonderball falls in the low-fi, shite-fi, etc category.

However and IME, there are many doofus (midfi at best) $50,000+ speakers that are simply "carried" by high-end/pristine sounding electronics. In fact, this has been going on for ages. When some 5k to 10k-ish speakers  get the same privilege of pairing with such high-end/over engineered electronics, the results can be shocking to many.

I really like @erik_squires definition- "If you can afford them, they are mid-fi.  If you can only see them in the rags they are hi-fi."  It acknowledges the relative nature of classifying gear-  each person needs to define for themselves what they perceive as low or high end.  It also cleverly calls out the frustration of the hobby itself.  The high end will always be just out of reach since its a euphemism for perfection which does not exist.

I always thought when you say something is HIFI you are concentrating on its sound characteristics than the music. Not good. 

The classification of speakers as "Hi-Fi"  or "Mid-Fi" can vary depending on different factors and individual perspectives. However, there are a few general characteristics that are often associated with each category.

Hi-Fi speakers typically offer a higher level of sound quality and accuracy compared to Mid-Fi speakers. They are designed to reproduce audio signals as faithfully and accurately as possible, with minimal distortion and coloration. Hi-Fi speakers often utilize advanced technologies and high-quality components to achieve superior performance. They are usually capable of producing a wide frequency range, including both low and high frequencies, with good clarity and detail.

On the other hand, Mid-Fi speakers, as the name suggests, fall in the middle range of fidelity. They generally offer respectable sound quality but may not reach the level of accuracy and refinement found in Hi-Fi speakers. Mid-Fi speakers may have some limitations in reproducing the full frequency range or may exhibit slight coloration of sound.

It's important to note that the line between Hi-Fi and Mid-Fi can be subjective and can vary depending on personal preferences, budget considerations, and the intended use of the speakers. What one person considers Hi-Fi might be seen as Mid-Fi by another. Ultimately, the distinction between Hi-Fi and Mid-Fi is not strictly defined and can differ among individuals and audio enthusiasts.

@deep_333 This where I throw a wrench in your statement. People are going bananas over JBL, Klipsch, Yamaha, Pioneer and Marantz on the new and used market. I see pairs of JBL L26 sell for 300€ and I roll my eyes. I think that there's a huge degree of snobbery in the budget category. On one hand, we have brand recognition with speakers (OMG! Klipsch! JBL!), and SiNAD with amps (class D is the holy grail, apparently...). 

My point is: I saw a local ad for Ruark Swordsman Plus II speakers (90€). It may as well be free. And nobody gives a flying care. If these things had a JBL logo they would sell for 800€ easily. Just toss in an old Arcam amp for 80€ and you're done. Nobody gives a flying care about Arcam, buy them cheap. 

I have to resist the urge to accumulate cheap vintage gear, it takes a lot of discipline. "Low-fi" is trap. You're overspending for junk. Good gear doesn't sell because people don't know about it. 

It is so true that my two vintage components bought at low price are top product, even compared to nowadays products and one of them is IRREPLEACABLE by anything at any price , and if it is repleacable i dont know by which TOP costlier headphones of today Susvara ? RAAL ? etc ...Because the two basic technology used were never used again his soundfield cannot be replicate by nowadays headphone so good or better they can be on some acoustic factor by their membrane refinement..

Sansui AU 607i alpha was top in 1978 ...not low fi nor mid fi ... TOP HI-FI at an affordable price, a concept which do not exist today because most companies are BIG corporations and are not runned by craftmanship ideals anymore, a concept which was the proposition to offer to the mass the TOP HIGH FI BEST at the lowest possible price with no big compromises as Sansui did Or as AKG did in 1978...And small companies of today with their craftmanship cannot afford the research budget to implement new technologies and new design in their second move at mass market price as in the Sansui alpha or in the AKG K340 specific cases which were not small companies at all in 1978 but not owned by Big corporations with no links to audio ...This era is gone forever...

Buying vintage was the only way to assemble a TOP system at 700 bucks for me.. i did it and with the headphone AKG K340 i stick the BIngo price ! ( my 9 others headphones were a disastrous frustrating experience compared to speakers/ dedicated room, because headphones are very difficult to be designed right acoustically more than speakers )

How do you know you arrived at the end line of high quality with an optimal ratio S.Q. /price , which is passed the minimal diminishing returns treshold ?

It is because upgrading is no more interesting and so easy to do without risk.....And especially because there is no sonic defects factors which is evident and a reason to do such upgrade... When you are completely in love and happy you dont change partners, the idea did not even cross your mind... 😊

But there is a caveat : old products must be repaired if not cleaned at least, there is a cost and a risk...

Not all vintages products are TOP compared to contemporary offers...Only few...

And i did 6 months of research full time to modify my Headphone and improve it to this level where it compete with anything...There exist two negative wwell known reviews of it because the two well known reviewers were unable to understand this new technology and how to use it and called it a mismatch between two drivers...😊... We must learn how to listen... It is not a free gift at all... I learned by tuning my room... Before i did not know anything at all..

Then sorry there is no easy path...

But money-wise in cost, Vintage may be interesting ... And sometimes more than interesting...

The labels High-fi , mid-fi, low-fi, is a mass market creation... Some companies in the past were selling top product at very high cost and in a second move were able to downsize the price at mass market price with compromise that were not too costly in sound quality... This did not exist todays, the Big corporations and small craftmanship small companies are not the pioneers in audio , the not big nor small companies of this golden era which were competing more for sonic qualities and innovations first and last as the means to dominate...

Perhaps there is exceptions today  as Hifiman for headphone ?

Am i wrong ? i dont think so... but this is my correct or uninformed enough opinions.. 😁😊

I have to resist the urge to accumulate cheap vintage gear, it takes a lot of discipline. "Low-fi" is trap. You’re overspending for junk. Good gear doesn’t sell because people don’t know about it.

@kokakolia , I, for one, won’t be buying anything from some guy tinkering with a piece in his garage (no-name Joe companies) with non-existent service in a couple of years. I would put it in the same category as Chifi though Chifi, at the least, is very affordably priced unlike the former. I am sure there are guys who buy stuff like that because it makes them feel elusive. I am not in that camp.

Klipsch crap aside, JBL’s higher end Synthesis line or even the HDI series is very good stuff. Yamaha, Marantz, Pioneer (back in the days) make extremely well engineered, great sounding hifi components with extreme bang 4 the buck and future proofed service for years, if anything ever breaks (they rarely ever break). TAD’s line of Pioneer wouldn’t be considered extreme bang 4 the buck, but still is top tier great value for the hardcore hifi enthusiast. TAD has extremely good resale value and you never see it in the used market because guys who have it hang on to it for dear life. I can see why this category of companies are very popular with the guys who don’t have bottomless pockets or otherwise.