When are speakers considered Hi-Fi and not Mid-Fi???

It is so true that my two vintage components bought at low price are top product, even compared to nowadays products and one of them is IRREPLEACABLE by anything at any price , and if it is repleacable i dont know by which TOP costlier headphones of today Susvara ? RAAL ? etc ...Because the two basic technology used were never used again his soundfield cannot be replicate by nowadays headphone so good or better they can be on some acoustic factor by their membrane refinement..

Sansui AU 607i alpha was top in 1978 ...not low fi nor mid fi ... TOP HI-FI at an affordable price, a concept which do not exist today because most companies are BIG corporations and are not runned by craftmanship ideals anymore, a concept which was the proposition to offer to the mass the TOP HIGH FI BEST at the lowest possible price with no big compromises as Sansui did Or as AKG did in 1978...And small companies of today with their craftmanship cannot afford the research budget to implement new technologies and new design in their second move at mass market price as in the Sansui alpha or in the AKG K340 specific cases which were not small companies at all in 1978 but not owned by Big corporations with no links to audio ...This era is gone forever...

Buying vintage was the only way to assemble a TOP system at 700 bucks for me.. i did it and with the headphone AKG K340 i stick the BIngo price ! ( my 9 others headphones were a disastrous frustrating experience compared to speakers/ dedicated room, because headphones are very difficult to be designed right acoustically more than speakers )

How do you know you arrived at the end line of high quality with an optimal ratio S.Q. /price , which is passed the minimal diminishing returns treshold ?

It is because upgrading is no more interesting and so easy to do without risk.....And especially because there is no sonic defects factors which is evident and a reason to do such upgrade... When you are completely in love and happy you dont change partners, the idea did not even cross your mind... 😊

But there is a caveat : old products must be repaired if not cleaned at least, there is a cost and a risk...

Not all vintages products are TOP compared to contemporary offers...Only few...

And i did 6 months of research full time to modify my Headphone and improve it to this level where it compete with anything...There exist two negative wwell known reviews of it because the two well known reviewers were unable to understand this new technology and how to use it and called it a mismatch between two drivers...😊... We must learn how to listen... It is not a free gift at all... I learned by tuning my room... Before i did not know anything at all..

Then sorry there is no easy path...

But money-wise in cost, Vintage may be interesting ... And sometimes more than interesting...

The labels High-fi , mid-fi, low-fi, is a mass market creation... Some companies in the past were selling top product at very high cost and in a second move were able to downsize the price at mass market price with compromise that were not too costly in sound quality... This did not exist todays, the Big corporations and small craftmanship small companies are not the pioneers in audio , the not big nor small companies of this golden era which were competing more for sonic qualities and innovations first and last as the means to dominate...

Perhaps there is exceptions today  as Hifiman for headphone ?

Am i wrong ? i dont think so... but this is my correct or uninformed enough opinions.. 😁😊

I have to resist the urge to accumulate cheap vintage gear, it takes a lot of discipline. "Low-fi" is trap. You’re overspending for junk. Good gear doesn’t sell because people don’t know about it.

Here you may have a point...

I try to do it...But perhaps i am not so good at doing it as well as i think...

If i am not clear about something, please ask and say it...i will try my best...

English is not my first language, and i live in quebec city then i never learned it by speaking  but only by reading books with limited vocabulary... ( science and philosophy)

Good night... And thanks for the exhange... I like to discuss...Too much... Perhaps...

Excessive politeness dont replace clarity...

Agreed. Why don’t you just do it?

The shortest way to be understood is saying it clearly ...Not waiting for someone to "click" on past thread posts...

Exemple: " yes mahgister i think you are right about acoustic because i experimented with it" already ...Then i will not go further with my "recommendation" at your dismay if i judge by your sarcasm......

is it not good ?

And beside that, other people read this dialogue and perhaps will be more enlightened by discovering that two people think the same about the importance of acoustic no ?

Excessive politeness dont replace clarity...

And by the way i never fake politeness...

And i dont keep grudges...Because i always say what is in my mind on the spot...

«Politeness is true act even when it is a pretend act, at the exclusion of sarcasm» --Groucho Marx learning Chinese 🤓

I will deeply and heartfully accept them because you are full of kindness and humor...

But you rebuked my  explanation by claiming that all i said or ever will say is related to  "smoking"... Sarcasm so gently put  cannot schock me because there is truth in any good will explanation , yours included...

Why not simply accept acoustic  experiments as an explanation ?

i apologize if i could not make that as clear as water....

I will go back to my hole to "smoke" ...And listening music... Perhaps jazz...

My very best to you....

I only replied because i think that you wanted a "formula"...Then i recommended Choueri... Perhaps you will be interested by reading about him... Thats all...

There is no simple formula in small room acoustic..

But i give you my dreamed solution to bypass acoustic study... And recommending is not insulting... 😁😉😊

But…. Who said I needed any recommendations?

I cannot recommend my headphone even if they are more than good( because it takes me 6 months to figure out how they work, the design of this headphone is unique, complex and very hard to link to the right components and we must make some internal optimization  and not everyone can take this risk and job) ,

I cannot recommend you my Sansui Alpha because there exist better amplifier anyway and for the price i paid (300) bucks they sell it way higher now and it is less a bargain ..i cannot recommend my basic good dac too as A SOLUTION...

But i can recommend you if you own already basically relatively good components something that will spare you the job to learn acoustic for your speakers/room...

Dr. Choueri BACCH filters... This is a revolution in acoustic... If i had the money it will be my only and last upgrade ...

i can live with my actual headphone systems though because it is anyway the best i listened to including Stax or my past Tannoy dual gold by far...And for 600 bucks... 😊

I apologize deeply for saying this… I am sorry… but I am very disappointed. I was looking forward to a formula. Or a store name ‘ brand.

I realize you did not think any wrong...

It is me who apologize... I am sorry...

I feel the urge to react too much it seems..

I smoked at the times acoustic articles wrapped in thin ring with a spice in them...😁😊

I wish you the best from my heart... I react too much too often but i did not means any harm just to precise my experience and thoughts ...

@mahgister : I am very sorry. I stopped reading your posts a long time ago, before you lost your house. So big apologies I won’t read this. I just know you slammed me, of course in your politically correct, polite, gentle, passive aggressive way. However, I would truly like to know what you smoke. I will immediately buy some

just a RECTIFICATION...

I never said that a 50 bucks vintage speakers sound like a 50,000 bucks speakers...

Second i said that my Tannoy dual gold or Magnepan ( few thousand dollars) in a bad room sound way less good than my 50 bucks Vintage Speakers Mission Cyrus which tannoy and Magnepan exhibit on blueprint paper and by most people experience, included mine, a better design ...THE ROOM BEAT THE SPEAKERS...

Third my vintage headphone from 1978 was the best in the world with Stax Omega, AkG K340... Inform yourself before spitting ignorance ... And optimized by me after 6 months of listening experiments and 6 modifications they beat anything i have listen to including speakers at a relatively low price...I dont speak here about 50,000 bucks speakers in a good room... You catch it ?

And you are deluded because your second rule is meaningless, because for sure people buy what they like listening to... It is a preposterouscommon place fact obervation...The problem is we cannot trust our limited experiences for most of us, and my advice is learn basic acoustic by fun experiments to increase our level of perception because WE ALL MUST LEARN HOW TO LISTEN...No baby is born mature audiophile or marure acoustician or maqture musician..

You did not NAME me but i recognized me... Think twice BEFORE putting absurd claims in my mouth... 😁😊

But I have to say: whoever says a cheap box store $50 pair of speakers sounds just like a $50,000 pair of speakers, or some cheap headphones for 50 years ago…

There is no room for interpretation here...😊

"distortion" is not an acoustic problem first but result from the electronical designof components...

Then as i said, "high fidelity" is not a basic acoustical concept mainly , but a concept related to optimal or not so optimal electronical design... This concept is born with the electronical industry linked to sound reproduction and engineering standards...

Timbre perception and soundfield immersiveness (ASW/LV) conditions are basic problems in acoustic and psycho-acoustic to be adress, ONCE the electronical design noise and distortion is under control and good to begin with...

And even Magnepan can deliver an inferior experience if we listen to it in a non adapted living room...I know that first hand ...My Tannoy dual gold which were potentially way better than my Mission Cyrus design were inferior as the Magnepan superior design was too ,compared to the low price Mission Cyrus IN A DEDICATED FOR IT ROOM...The magnepan and the Tannoy, Alas! were experience in living room and not in a dedicated room... This why my low cost Mission beat them...The relation speakers/room is more important for audiophile experience than just the speakers design blueprint so better it is ...

Then the best audiophile experience is determined by acoustic experience and knowledge not by price tag of electronic components and not even by superior design ... Saying that costlier design is better is not false, it is worst than that, it is an HALF TRUTH... it is consumers marketing conditioning... Not acoustic science nor my experience ....

My perspective is not popular with people owning very costly system...😊 They think that i devaluate their really better design, I did not, I never claimed that low cost gear can replace very costlier superior design, no more than my inferior Mission can replace my Tannoy or Magnepan, i claim that we must if we want to judge a system potential we must listen to it in a dedicated room or at least in a very well treated and acoustically good living room...

Then the room /speakers relation is the KEY... Not the price of a dac, especially nowadays that many dac are really good even at low price... The differential decisive factor to real audiophile experience is acoustic room treatment and mechanical control or virtual room acoustic as with Dr. Choueri BACCH filters...... If people think that in spite of their real perceived differences it is vinyl versus analog, or digital versus turntable or the amplifier price or the speakers price by themselves ALONE ,they delude themselves.....And the marketing of audio want deluded consumers  walking all over the place and upgrading without end searching out of acoustic which only acoustic can give... But it is not a good news: we must learn and work , there is no "buy and ready to plug" audiophile top experience ...

the Dictionary.com definition of High-Fidelity is:

noun Electronics.

1. sound reproduction over the full range of audible frequencies with very little distortion of the original signal.

That leaves quite a bit of room for interpretation.

I am not sure that i understand your question...

There is one thing in life exciting and interesting and it is NOT what you bought, but what will you do with the purchase...

The other thing exciting and interesting is being able to do the MOST with the less ....

Another thing interesting and exciting is KNOWING exactly why you will purchase something...And knowing you will never need MORE, not because your system will be a makeshift, but because it will be among top in the world by the ratio for the higher possible S.Q. for the less possible price...

Purchasing a 100,000 dollars speakers or amplifier or dac make no sense at all for me , why?

Because being there you will be in the obligation to buy a 50,000 bucks dac instead of a 10,000 one and the same for the amplifier....And they will not necessarily be the best.... The end results will be as in any uninformed purchase by faith in the price tags if not a mediocre system , a system which ca be rivalled at a way, way less price with basic knowledge or informed purchase...

With knowledge Hi-Fi can cost if not peanuts , not so much.... For me the top system i dream about is : under 15,000... And i know it will rival anything or it will not be too far behind...and i know exactly why this will be so...

The only thing costly in audio that impress me are room acoustic designed by pro...the price of any components passed a certain amounts is more snobism and ignorance most of the times, but not in all case for sure some people can afford the best and know how to purchase it...... Some TOP design are costly for a reason... But i can make something not far behind for less anyway...

When i begun my journey i was sad because i did not have any money to create my Hi-FI heaven... Now i know it was real luck , because i learned a lot... People with money most of the times dont learn instead they buy...

i dont feel frustration because i dont own a 400,000 bucks system, i dont need it at all ... The only case i will be envious is a dedicated acoustic room well designed ... This will cost at least 100, 000 bucks... And you dont need to put a 100,000 bucks amplifier and 100,000 bucks amplifier there AT ALL... I say all this not to criticize people who can afford that, why not? i say that for the people who cannot and feel frustrated... My message and recommendation is feel empowered by studying a bit and experimenting... This is way more rewarding than any purchase...

To answer your question :

For sure a 400,000 system IS HI-FI in principle, because at this price the design is at least good and better than most low cost systems ...But the room matter if not equally even more.... Then i need to experience this system in a room to decide if it is mediocre, good or TOP for the EARS...The room decide not the price tag of component in my experience...

The best system i listened to now is mine with 100 bucks headphone ... But think about that: do you think one of the best amplifier in the world in 1980 and one of the best headphone of all time and the flagship of AKG in 1978 is completely mediocre and without anything special ? You are wrong if you think so.... A stax Omega system in 1978 is always a top system... And my headphone rival them and beat them for the bass completely, i felt Baoch organ works with my body and feet... ... And the holography is to die for... Then ?

No one can make me envious because i know what i do with the components i pick...There are not the best in the absolute , only a fool can claim such a thing; but they are unbeatable in the ratio S.Q./ low price ...

Give me 12,000 dollars and i will upgrade and THEN  compete with anything almost...Nowadays anyway there is a revolution in DSP and dac, and most people dont even know about it... Then they pay MORE for LESS....

@Mahgister what if you are like tubebuffer and have a $400k system in your tool shed? Classy but not hifi?

i concur totally with retrocrownfan...

Most people had no experience and no idea about acoustic coupling of speakers with a specific room and the reverse...They then thougtht that price tags will spare them the need to experiment and learn basic acoustic....

My Mission Cyrus with a lesser high quality design were way better than my Tannoy dual gold ONLY because they were coupled to a dedicated room...Alas! when i learned basic  acoustic i had already sold my Tannoy...I can only dream of them in a room tailor made for them...

No speakers beat their room...

Sorry, but not a useful parsing. There are speakers under $1500 a pair that would embarrass most golden ear audiophiles in blind A/B test. HiFi vs MidFi is only about price and perceived brand value. Companies make ROI decisions based on volume of sales vs unit mark up. IAG in China has been a brilliant vertically integrated force with the market-changing products they engineer and produce under the venerable British brands they purchased.

Simple : there is no Hi-Fi without dedicated acoustic room....

Price tags means not optimal soundfield...

The only reason why people think otherwise, they had no personal experience of a room acoustically tailor made for specific speakers...I thought the same BEFORE i tune a room...

Small room acoustic obey other principle than great hall acoustic ...

High fidelity to what in relation to which source? The recorded analog or digital source or the real musician playing which anyway did not exist in an absolute sense acoustically because each location of the listener will give rise to different timbre experience and in relation which very different room or hall...

High fidelity is a marketing term...Not a scientific one...To justify and qualify speakers, amplifiers and dac and recording device as microphones design or reel magnetophone design etc...

Before the gear components and even before the recording engineers trade-off, there is the real violin or piano or chorus playing in a small chuch or in a very small hall or in very big one with each one displaying  his own acoustic properties...

Recording that is an ART  with all different trade-off possibilities for the recording engineer who will decide to pick one set of these and recording that choice on vinyl or cd is not  so much "high-fidelity", it is an optimal fidelity, which we will listen to in some room/speakers relation optimally or not...

High fidelity is a concept in marketing gear electronical design not in acoustic, except to speak about the necessary listener impression...

No recording sound the same in one room /system and in another one...

Acoustic basic knowledge is the ground for optimal experience, not the price tag of products who exhibit yes a dinminushing returns relatively low treshold...

Very good obervation and common sense post...

Thanks very much...

Keep in mind, the term "Mid-Fi" was invented by gear salesmen to yep, up sale customers on more expensive gear. There is no "Mid-Fi". It’s all "Fi", some is better than others, some worse. It’s up to you and your own personal preferences to decide what trips your trigger but note others might think you are crazy if you sit around listening to a strident sounding BRIGHT speaker and go on and on about hearing the singer take breathes between each phrase or that you can hear that someone in the studio farted. Is FM radio with its limited dynamic range and frequency response only 50Hz to maybe 15Khz "Hi-Fi"? Some would say yes, others no. See, it is arbitrary. If you have a great sounding balanced system with great imaging yet it can’t reproduce 95dB of dynamic range is it still "Hi-Fi"? This is a hobby, not an exclusive golf club. People at all price points can participate in enjoying the music. People acting like snobs is one reason this hobby is dying, particularly salesmen who won’t demo gear to newbies if they don’t come in driving a $100K car.

You are right and i think that...

The acoustic relation between speakers and room is the main factor in audio experience... The price tag of a dac or of an amplifier is not the main factor... Except for very bad dac and amplifier..

The other  exception is comparing cheap speakers to very costly one...

I don’t know and I don’t think it should be based on price. I’d suggest it’s on performance and ultimately that is likely best for the customer/ buyer to define. 

Hi-Fi is when i know that even a "better" upgrade will made me remorseful because almost useless...

I bought what i tought was mid-Fi but it become High-FI  after acoustic  application of basics...

😊

A guy once told me that if he owned it, it was HiFi.

If he felt the need to later sell it, it was because it had become MIDFI. 

No product is mid-fi or hi-fi by virtue of his price tag alone for me...

High fidelity is refering to a recording translated in a determine acoustical way by some specific acoustic content and properties in a room , the components are only tool serving acoustic needs.. ...The components price tags means nothing alone ...

Soundfield is not created by price tag...

But once said all component design are not equal for sure and come with a price tag which is in a loose way and non linearly related to their design quality / potential S.Q. ...

What plague audiophile world is ignorance of acoustic... And faith in price tag of any "new" design for a so called upgrade...