What Turntable to buy under $600 ?

I use a Goldring 1042 with my rega. It's quite fiddly to align due to the stylus profile, but sounds very good, and is an excellent match with the table. I think there's a dealer selling them at a special price on audiogon if you search for goldring, or go to www.mantra-audio.co.uk and buy direct from the UK ... it's much cheaper than buying from a US dealer.

I have also used Rega Super Bias, which is quite pleasant, but not as good as the Goldring.

Many in the UK seem to like the Denon DL110 and DL160 high output moving coil cartridges, though I've not heard one myself. These MC cartridges work into most MM input stages. They're inexpensive and can be found at needle doctor.

OK. The Rega P3 will fit my needs, but what about a matching (quality and cost-effective) MM cartridge to mate with the TT?

I agree with the last fellow's assessment of the response provided to date. Really going off the mark.

I would, however, bet my ears and wallet on the Sota Sapphire. I have owned several Sota's (still own a Star Sapphire and absolutely love it), classic Micro Seiki, MusicHall MMF7, and one or two others. SOTA!!! Try reaching just a little further and pick up a good used Sota Star Sapphire (vacuum). I can't imagine you'd be disappointed. If it needs a tweek or a part Donna at Sota is wonderful to work with.

Oh I have had a laugh reading all this. Poor bloke asks for advice on a mid price TT and it descends into a farce. I have three cheap to mid price turntables set up. Two excel at particular types of music and one is superb at all types of music.
1 Goldring GR2 (read Rega P3 here) came with a Rega RB250 arm. God it was awful. The table is cheap and nasty but you know what with the Goldring 1012X it came fitted with it sounds brillant on rock music. I was so impressed that I sent the arm away to Origin Live for a full set of upgrades (cost about $700) but worh it, also fitted the Heed Audio speed box. That baby really sings.

2 An Ebay special, a 30 year old Ariston RD11s with SME3 with the fluid damp trough and an integrated SME Ortofon 30H. Eningeering is king and this has it in spades. It will outlive me and be passed onto my children. It weighs a ton but as the basis for the later Linn LP12 it has shown its worth. Takes ages to get up to speed but when there it is the among the best TTs for classical music there is.

3 Sorry guys but the finest turntable that will play anything you throw at it with a silky smooth background, oodles of detail, dynamics and absolute clarity is my Technics SL1200 Mk2 with full KAB mods including screw down clamp, strobe disabler, external power supply etc etc and the superb KAB groovemaster. Sublime.

I have the Ariston and Goldring in my study and the Technics in the lounge. To really appreciate the differences between the three, I play them them through Graham Slee Amp2 SE phono stage (with uprated power supplies) I have three of them and two Graham Slee Solo headphone amplifiers driving Senheiser HD600s with Russ Andrews Kimber cable. It really doesn't matter what electronics you use though, the differences will shine through. Remember Garbage in Garbage out.

So the advice is buy the Rega if you listen to mainly rock music and spend some money on upgrading the arm or if you listen to all types of music buy the Technics and follow KABs upgrade path. I you are willing to take a chance, look at used decks from yesteryear but be careful as spares are few and far between.

Here's a 'noisy' rim drive for Pauly:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1134731119

Killer...

That shows how much ewe really know about audio, dude!

***

Obviously these guys don't play salsa music...

Johnnantias.

I guess reverting to insults when you cannot produce objective reasons for your views is probably as good as you can do. Throwing insults at me is rather sad as you know nothing about me personally, nothing about my musical requirements, musical tastes, my equipment or experience in audio. Like Physic you do not respond to legitimate questions directly, rather sidestep and counter with insults. In the circles I move in that is considered as somewhat infantile behavior, but I understand it may be totally acceptable in yours so no offence taken on my part

FYI, the advice you gave dvdgreco echo what I gave him before you eccentrics climbed out the woodwork. Rather foolish after calling me the fool no?

I do not reject your so-called 'Lenco challenge' out of ignorance, but due to a number of objective reasons and subjective experiences/observations I have had over many years in the hobby. Saying you are “throwing down the gauntlet” is not unlike a heroin addict telling me not to knock it till I try it. No, I need some objective reasons before spending money effort and time – all you have come up with is hearsay.

In fact you preference of an modified RB300 over a SME IV tells me the table has some serious flaws.

As somebody that builds my own vacuum amps, I also succumb to having a less critical ear for my own creations. So I do not begrudge people that restore antique tables. Unlike you, I can at least come up with a couple of objective reasons why the amps I built are more suitable for audio than most commercial transistor amps.

Regards
Paul

Stan and Pauly - we are talking about a very specific few sub-$600 table/arm/cartridge combos. In that realm, given the TT choices so far presented, I stand by my previous post 110%.

Of course an SME 309 arm sounds better on a VPI than on a $40 Fisher TT, and a 3" inch thick acrylic platter with a ring clamp sounds better than a 3/32" hollow aluminum platter. And they do ONLY because they obviously perform the 3 functions I enumerated better than a Fisher El Crappo does. But those aren't the choices we're talking about here, nor are we talking about an El Crappo.

We're pretty much considering a P3, a Technics 1200, or a Lenco type. These all have their specific strengths/weaknesses, but they're playing in the same league. So I still say that the cartridge that DVDGreco chooses (and it's synergy with the arm) will impact his enjoyment of the music more than which of these tables he ends up with.

Pauly, "It is easier to write upon the water, than to teach a fool anything" (Khalil Gibran), a fool being someone who refuses to learn what he does not want to learn, meaning he will never learn anything of value and so remain a fool. The quotes for the most part were from the owners of said 'tables, or have you a hard time reading? Owners, it goes without saying, are far more familiar with the performance/sound of their turntables than reviewers who spend a short period with them. And what makes you think that reviewers, who MUST always tout Progress (or there would be no reason to buy new things) and thus guarantee enough advertising to ensure survival of the magazine (a conflict of interest of ever there was one), are a better source than the owners of the 'tables who have sunk their cash and egos into them? In fact, it is likelier that these folk would find for their chosen 'tables than for the cheap'n cheerful Lencos, and so admit their error, human nature being what it is (you are a prime example of such personal weaknesses). There is a very large difference between the fellow who listened to various 'tables and you: he was willing to learn, and did hear a Lenco. I have in fact heard the Lenco against a large variety of high-end 'tables (I have even had the temerity to buy and rebuild a Technics SP10 MKII to give DDs the best chance I could so I could decide for myself based on actual experience, rather than rely on hearsay), having owned a few highly-regarded ones myself over the years. This is true as well of those I quoted and many more I did not. Your arguments fit into my classification - "The gist of all defenses against actual verification so far is that since it contradicts Dogma/belief, then something HAD to be wrong somewhere, this could NOT be accurate, therefore it could not be, period" - thanks for bearing me out on this and providing such a brilliant example. If you decide you want to actually learn something new and throw the closed doors of your mind open (many have done, rethinking their stand), then contact me, I'll be happy to help you find and hear either a properly set-up Lenco or a Garrard.

And for the record, here's an excerpt from a 6moons article by Jeff Day. For context, in comparing a grease-bearing Garrard 301 (that Sugano who designed your beloved Koetsus had the good sense to use both for listening and in the design of the Koetsus) I rebuilt to a Lenco with identical tonearms and cartridges (yes, I actually took the extreme action of actually listening to a Garrard 301, and forming an opinion from actual experience!), I could hear no differences: "The Garrard fills the room with a big, billowing sense of space that extends well outside the location of the speakers, with a deep soundstage that retains naturally sized images that are infused with the breath of life-like humanness. One of the things I've noticed -- and Terry Cain commented on it too -- is that the Garrard has a definite sense of drive & PRaT (pace, rhythm and timing) that brings the music to life. Paul Chamber's bass playing on "Alone Together" has a sense of tautness, propulsion & rhythmic nuance that completely escapes my very fine $8000 Meridian 508.20/Audio Logic 2400 transport/DAC combination. A number of Garrardissimos I have talked to contribute this to the idler wheel design. I don't know if it's the idler wheel or not but the Garrard 301 has the PRaT thing down pat in the best of the English tradition. It's easy to understand why such a great mystique has grown up around the Garrard 301 after spending some time with it. It really is an incredible table. There is rich musicality to the music produced by the Garrard 301. It conveys the mood of the music in fine fashion and with a great sense of correct tonality. Simply put, the Garrard 301 is a tone monster! It's also a rhythm king. You'll always understand the intricacies of the rhythm with this vintage setup. Think of the boring beat of that one-note metronomic bass line that you hear in many recordings with most tables. It's there but it's not much of an inspiration. The Garrard 301 takes that seemingly one-note bass line and infuses into it the musicians' subtle (or not so) stylings in tempo, dynamics, phrasing and harmonic structure to give it feeling. And guess what? The Garrard doesn't just do that with bass, it does it with all the instruments and voices that make up the musical whole to produce a very cohesive & life-like musical experience that oozes emotions. The Garrard also gives a sense of natural burnished warmth and solidity to images. The Garrard conveys the texture of all the components of the music and makes sense of the musical whole. It's also detailed in a very natural-sounding and realistic way. The vintage setup is easy on the ear and has no unnatural edge or glare. On "September Son", Kenny Burrell's guitar intro opens the song and provides the backdrop for when Chet comes in with his trumpet. The two continue to lazily style through the rest of the number. With the Garrard, you get a real feel for the music. You don't just hear the music and admire the sound, you get a glimpse into the emotional makeup of the musicians contributing to it. You understand the music in a way that few other source components can match."

But 6moons is probably not to be counted as evidence by you either, which you will also find some pretext to dismiss. This reminds me of the thread I started a while back, "The High End and Glubglub". This is based on a philosophical discussion on logic: "What he (the skeptic) wants it is logically impossible to supply. But doesn't the logical impossibility of the skeptic's demand defeat his cause? If he raises a logically impossible demand, can we be expected to fulfill it? He says we have no evidence, but whatever we adduce he refuses to count as evidence. At least we know what we would count as evidence, and we show him what it is. But he only shakes his head and says it isn't evidence. But then surely he is using the word "evidence" in a very peculiar way (a meaningless way?), so that nothing whatever would count as a case of it...Might he not just as well say, "There is no glubglub?"..." I have many occasions to trot this out as I have crossed many like you out there in getting the world to go back and have a listen to a discredited technology: whatever the evidence, it is not to be counted as evidence if it contradicts a favoured prejudice. As Stanhifi likes to always write, "this is too easy". Prove me wrong, I have nothing to hide and welcome yet another showdown between a rebuilt Lenco and anything you would like to throw at it. As I wrote long ago at the beginning of my Lenco Challenge, "I throw down the gauntlet" (and 4yanx bravely picked it up, made a serious effort to restore one, compared it to his Nottingham Spacedeck/Graham 2.2/Benz, and sold the Nottingham Spacedeck/Graham 2.2/Benz, and with immense integrity reported his findings on Audiogon, and have many others). None have even matched it so far, in a fair comparison, quality tonearm/cartridge against quality tonearm/cartridge. This might actually stimulate your curiosity.

Anyway, Dvdgreco, ignore these idler-wheel discussions as they don't fit your bill anyway, and concentrate instead on the SL1200 or Regas and others in your price-range.

Sean, I was unaware Garrards were still available new. I was wrong, you were right.

Are they better than Teres, VPI, Galabier and Progressive though? I doubt that and I doubt you will disagree on that either. In fact, I’ll eat my record collection if they are better – you can be a witness.

I may get one for my 78’s though.

Regards
Paul

I recommend that you not be Mr smarty-pants when you are talking about something with which you have absolutely no personal experience.

The same goes for direct drives--and my experience regarding high end decks, tonearms and cartridges.

***

Pauly,

"Surely you do not think that Garrards are still being sold no?"

http://www.garrard501.com/

I recommend that you not be Mr smarty-pants when you are talking about something with which you have absolutely no personal experience.

>>the choice of cartridge is by far the more important factor.<<

Nope that's flat out incorrect. A good tonearm with an average cartridge will smoke an average tonearm with a good cartridge. Check it out.

Turntable schmurntable … rubbish

Absolute rubbush. The deck is the most critical part of the front end.

Newton taught us that for every action there is a an equal (in force) but opposite (in direction) reaction. Your needle pressing on the groove makes the groove press back on the needle. The platter construction and the efficiency of the coupling between the LP and platter has a dramatic effect on sound as that influences how the LP presses back on the cart.

Try running with a clamp, anvil and/or periphery ring clamp as apposed to the LP not clamped at all. Huge difference.

A hollow cast iron platter produces a sound very different from one machined from solid aluminum. An acrylic platter sound different from an aluminum or one machined from PVC. These will all sound different from a laminate.

A TT needs to resist airborne vibrations. A wooden box plinth is not to good at that – they pickup these vibrations and transmit them to the platter and tonearm. Best tables have plinths and arm boards made of acoustically dead (i.e. dense) material.

A TT needs to resist vibrations from the object it is placed upon. Put a TT on a resonant table as apposed to an acoustically dead stand and hear the difference. Some will be almost immune while other will have a noticeable degrading of sonics.

Friction of the bearing platter has a huge effect on sound. People don’t pay thousands for air-bearing because they’re 'cool'.

The coupling between plinth and arm board is a factor. The arm board/arm pod should not move in relation to the platter.

I don’t believe I have even scratched the surface. With a crummy deck even the best arm and cart will sound like shyte.

Turntable.. Schmurntable...

A turntable only needs to do 3 things to be Perfect:

1. Turn at the prescribed speed (e.g. 33rpm) with minimal fluctuation.
2. Impart no vibration/resonance of it's own to the cartridge/arm.
3. Be shielded or designed well enough that the cartridge/armwire is not adversely affected by any magnetic or electrical field from the TT.

That is ALL a turntable can possibly do - PERIOD! There is no Black Magic about spinnin' a freakin' platter at a steady speed. The basic technology to accomplish this was in place somewhere between the invention of the wheel and the early 20th century.

Most of the TT's mentioned here meet those 3 criteria reasonably well.

Everything else being argued about is actually a function of the cartridge, the tonearm, the cartridge/tonearm matching, the quality of the arm wire/output jacks.

So my advice to the original poster, at $600 - buy whichever of these looks the coolest to you (or your wife), won't break the bank, and won't be too much of pain to keep running properly. I've had 15 or 20 of these types of turntables to play with, and I can say without doubt (assuming the quality of TT's already mentioned here) the choice of cartridge is by far the more important factor. And unfortunately that does get into a much more personal, subjective preference.

Sean, your point is what?

You quote my statement of "Fact is there are none on the market" and go on to talk about restoring tables that have been OFF the market for 30 odd years?

Surely you do not think that Garrards are still being sold no?

Johnnantais. I give you 11 out of 10 for trying, but you are crossing the line into the ridiculous.

'So here's some actual facts'

A few opinions posted on the BB are hardly facts. And no, simply because you really like these opinions don’t make them facts either.

'there is bass in abundance (not a noted Koetsu characteristic)'

Really? I guess I must have an odd Koetsu as my Rosewood pounds at the bass.

'fantastic dynamics, energy, slam, PRaT, call it what you will, and the detail and clarity are stunning'

I have heard people say that about iPods. Can we get a respected audio journalist/critique to say that about a Lenco? Maybe, but I have yet to see that.

'I have been listening to some serious money turntables over the last few months and the budget Lenco beats most of them'

Really? In home or a 10-15 minute listen at an audio show or store? Did you listen to material you are familiar with or not? Are you familiar with neutral and accurate sound, or used to a particular coloration produced by your own equipment? Was the associated equipment the same. What about the arm and carts used? Room acoustics?

Added note – having endured a (painful) karaoke evening a few weeks ago, it was obvious that some individuals actually prefer a colored (read distorted, boomy and smeared) sound. Those individuals are totally unimpressed by an accurate and natural representation of music.

No, I have not listened to a Lenco or Garrard. I have however spend many hours listening to a well restored and well setup TD124. The sound was very colored and there was a very noticeable lack of low level detail. Not nice ...

Regards
Paul

There sure is a lot of talk of "facts" on this thread. So here's some actual facts, get ready to shell out your money Pauly, I expect it to be in a flash:

"In defense of my poor maligned TNT, Jean, even you admitted it is quite a musical turntable, more so since I replaced its Dyna 10X5 with a second Denon DL-103. But it WAS rather massacred by the Lenco, I'll be the first to admit."

"i bought an LP12 with valhalla and ittok initially and was quite pleased for a while. for me (and my ten thumbs), set-up issues plagued that particular table. i heard a basic teres setup and promptly sold the linn as the sound quality bested the linn by an embarassingly large margin. i then had a teres 245 with moerch dp-6 and allaerts mc-1b. unfortunately, my teres had problems of it's own (recurrent motor controller faults, cracked base that had to be replaced, etc. etc.). i now use a modified lenco L-75 with moerch dp-6 arm and denon DL-160 cartridge and have achieved what is easily the best sound (and reliability) to date.
flyingred's concluding remark pretty well sums it up. whatever table/arm/cart combination you eventually decide upon, enjoy the music!"

"I have had a fantastic evening's listening. The Lenco is everything claimed here and more. As forecast by Jean, there is bass in abundance (not a noted Koetsu characteristic), fantastic dynamics, energy, slam, PRaT, call it what you will, and the detail and clarity are stunning. I have been listening to some serious money turntables over the last few months and the budget Lenco beats most of them - I'm not sure yet whether it's better than a Galibier I heard a few weeks ago but it's pretty close. I'll be better able to comment when I put the DL-103 on the FR64. There's no doubt in my mind that the Lenco is preferable to the Teres 265 and 360, Nottinham Spacedeck and Hyperspace, SME 10, Kuzma Stabi and of course my old Linn."

The traditional defense against these types of actual verifications of the claims presented here is that a) there was something wrong with the set-up; and b) the system was not of sufficient quality. The gist of all defenses against actual verification so far is that since it contradicts Dogma/belief, then something HAD to be wrong somewhere, this could NOT be accurate, therefore it could not be, period. Or you could accept them as evidence, put your money where your mouth is, and join in the Great Lenco Experiment, and risk having some fun in the process. But please, hold back on all the "facts", as you yourself wrote, "Have you ever spent time and listened to a $1500 cart? Do you even know what they sound like?" Substitute "Garrard" or "Lenco" for "$1500 cart".

dvdgreco if you can stretch the budget a little a Michell tecnodec or Nottingham horizon will better the P3 for not much more money.

"Fact is there are none on the market"

The Garrard 301, 401 and 501 sell for pretty big money when fully restored, and I have known people dump top spec. LP12s to get a garrard. The LP12 is not the best incarnation of belt drive, but it's good enough that if it is replaced with a Garrard there must be something to these idler-drive decks.

I must admit that my basic knowledge of physics would suggest that a Teres type approach (which is really brute force and ignorance) using a massive platter, a slender, non-elastic belt and a minimal motor, would appear to be optimum, but there are some who prefer the music from the Garrard. I personally have heard neither, but I would not discount either.

I have never heard a "hifi" setup Technics SL1200, so I would never write that off either. Again, I know of people who have dumped Rega P3s for an SL1200, and I know of people who have dumped SL1200s for Rega P3s, so it strikes me that neither would be obviously a better choice without first hearing it.

Psychic. I appreciate a person who sees the funny side of things. I do too
(most of the time) .

You keep on harping about my ignorance, but from my side the ignorance seems to be yours.

'Greco, take this from the underground: the Creature on Steroids will be at the $5K performance level when fully modded'.

Do you actually know what a $5000 TT sounds like at all? Which $5000 tables have you listened to? Can you provide a list? Who else have listened to your table and the yet unknown $5000 table to verify your objective (?) opinion?

'The modded Groovemaster has the midrange of a $1500 MC cartridge:'

Really? Which $1500 carts are you comparing it to? A Koetsu perhaps? Maybe a Shelter or Zyx? Anything? Have you ever spent time and listened to a $1500 cart? Do you even know what they sound like? Can anybody verify your groovemaster claim?

'A few months ago I got the strobe disabler for my 1200. No other TT has so many options'

Really? Strobe disabler? WTF is that supposed to do? Fix some mistake on the original design perhaps? On a Rega you can change platters, install VTA adjusters, rewire the arm and replace the end stub. You can add a strobe disabler?

For the record, I do not really care what technology is employed on a TT. If a $5000 idler wheel or direct drive comes out that beat the Galabiers, VPIs and Teres tables I’ll buy it in flash. Fact is there are none on the market.

Regards
Paul

Ignorance is still running rampant...and LOL!!!

Pauly ... read my earlier posts, therein lies the information.

Dvdgreco was asking for TT recs under $600. It all started well enough, then descended into a showoff-fest with arms cartridges and tables costing kilobucks. How is that helpful ?

I stand by my P3 suggestion. A perfectly reasonable deck. Add a denon dl-110, or a Goldring 1042 and be happy. If the desire to upgrade bites a P3 is also extremely easy to sell.

Well, perhaps I should qualify my invective against the Karat 17D just a little. My system includes JM Labs Electra 926s, and bass is not the strong suit of these otherwise admirable speakers. Also, my Linn equipment is very detailed, but not the most dynamic. So the bass-light, detail heavy 17D probably had no real chance of synergistic success in my system to begin with. But you should also know that several people I have run across have commented on the poor bass in this cartridge. In my system, it sounded worse than poor – it was like my woofers had disappeared. As to burn in, well, I am sure it can make a difference, but I personally don’t know how much. (I didn’t want to listen to it for the requisite hours needed, and also, it was easier to sell with only an hour on it.) If you do buy one of these, I'd advise picking one up used. I have seen them several times with very few hours for considerably less than half of what they cost new.

Now I feel sory for Dvdgreco, he's been cast into a shark-filled tank, but glad to see you haven't been scared off! There are large differences in sound between these various 'tables (and between your Technics and the heavier ones), but in wanting a reliable, simple turntable that doesn't require finicky set-up you pretty well rule out suspended turntables and a variety of others with outboard motors, and so once again the Rega P3 (simple, elegant, musical and easy to get/hear, though a wall-mount and a heavy slab are a good idea for isolation, as for any light unsuspended design) and Technics SL1200 (tons of upgrade potential as Psychicanimal points out and also easy to use) are your best bets. Then there are the Projects, MMFs, and lower-end VPIs. Most audiophiles consider belt-drives the only game in town, and this does make life simpler and reduces your possibilities. But, life isn't so simple, these belt-drivers are wrong, both idler-wheel drives (off your list due to difficulties) and DDs can sound superb, and both beat belt-drives when it comes to bass quality and detail, and in other areas depending on how far you take them. I think you should try to actually hear some of these if possible, see them in the flesh (we do operate on visuals/impressions to a certain extent), and trust your instincts: when one of them brings you into the music better than the others (bring some LPs), then you've found your 'table (of course, then cartridge, phono stage also influences sound, but you can't control every aspect of these auditions). Good luck.

Pauly, there are very large and fundamental physical differences between the Rega RB300 and the RB250 (now I'll have the Rega Brigade after me), in comparisons I have done, as well as magazines, and contrary to findings posted all over the internet, the Rega RB300 is significantly more refined (the bearings and bearing materials different) than the '250, hearing one does not give you an adequate idea of the other, you are making an error in judgment. The '250 is brash and bright compared to the '300 (the comparison done with the same wiring and same metal end-stub/counterweight), and I suspect that its popularity is partly attributable to its synergy with darker systems, or for ears attuned to bright/thin digital media as opposed to ears attuned strictly to analog like mine (though I have a CD player I use for background music and to tape music for the car). Of course, to realize its potential, the RB300 wiring has got to go, a hidden cost and bother. The Mayware and SME 3009 are two of the vintage tonearms I alluded to which surpass the Rega in certain areas, but neither has the gestalt (music of a piece) balance and control (especially in the high frequencies with difficult MCs) of the RB300 when it comes to MCs, though both beat it for speed and detail (assuming metal knife-edge beartings for the SME). On the other hand, the Rega RB300 (re-wired) is in turn far more musically convincing (lively and dynamic) than the SME IV I auditioned at length in my system and in others of finer pedigree/resolution than mine, which is why I adorer the musical balance of the RB300: it walks the fine line between too much control (big SMEs) and not enough, and maintains a beautiful balance from lows (tremendous when mounted on a big, heavy idler-wheel drive) to highs (control of MCs), balancing musical energy and information perfectly, like a cat walking on a beam. It doesn't have the sparkle of some, but is long-temr satisfying.

Thanks for the warning Newmanoc, but perhaps the 17D requires prolonged burn-in as so many MCs do, or do you know someone who has kept one long-term and come to the same conclusion? I confess I am in love with the engineering of this cartridge, and my big idler-wheel drives do a lot to inject bass where there was none before. I'll try to find one to audition before I make the leap.

Dvdgreco. A $100 could improve your table to a level that may suffice, so you should consider it by all means. As an avid tweaker myself, I know the satisfaction gleaned from improving existing gear. But it would be very naïve to think a $100 can transform your table to sound like a VPI or Sota. That just aint gonna happen.

"the Creature on Steroids will be at the $5K performance level"?

LOL! Yep, sure it will, and I bet folks will be beating down you door for that no doubt.

"I've been planning on buying a Dynavector 17D MKII (one of two classic cartridges remaining I want for my collection...)"

Johnnantais, DON'T DO IT. This thing lasted less than an hour on my table - it was truly awful. This is the castrati of cartridges - absolutely and utterly lacking in bass. I have absolutely no idea what reviewers have heard in this cartridge that they liked. You will notice that there are a lot of these that appear for sale with 5 hours or less on them. There is a reason.

Greco, take this from the underground: the Creature on Steroids will be at the $5K performance level when fully modded. The modded Groovemaster has the midrange of a $1500 MC cartridge: it has ABSOLUTELY no edge or graininess with superb tracking, bass impact and musicality. Talk to Kevin at KAB Electroacoustics and he'll help you develop a modding plan. A few months ago I got the strobe disabler for my 1200. No other TT has so many options--rock solid construction, reliability, modifications, parts & service-- at this price range.

And yes--when it comes to turntables specs DO matter.

Regarding rim drives, GTT Audio is the Kharma speakers importer in the USA and they demo at shows with vinyl only. Two years ago they won Best of Show at the NY Stereophile show. Their turntable? A noisy rim drive...

With psychic power and primal intensity,

What about the cartridge resonance figures Pauly for the comparisons between the Rega,SME 3009 and Mayware.Did you do them?Are you familiar with Paol Ladegaaard's paper on mechanical resonances in turntables?

A lot of recommendations have been cast about. Seems as though vast technical differences exist between each model and set-up. I still ponder the question, do technical specification differences result in significant audible differences, especially with turntables? At this point, I wonder if I where to spend $100 or so to have my existing Techncis SL-205 DD turntable set-up properly that it would sound no different than any of the tables listed above (P3, SOTA, VPI)???????????

Sean, taking my statements out of context to satisfy your infantile desire to make asinine remarks brings no value to the discussion.

Why don’t you enlighten us how your post is any less [ignorant] than Psychicanimals?

"but I am sad to say those individuals would be better off with something from Best Buy. "
"I am not a snob."

Funny .. I thought those two statements were contradictory.

Psychic ... what a very ignorant post. Care to enlighten us ?

Yeah, a Moth table. Go to BritAudio.com and get one of his modded Moth tables. You will get unquestionable service and help. And a great table. I'm not affiliated - just one suggestion.

Johnnantias. RB250 & Rb300 cannot track Koetsus. I have tried and it sounds like sh*t. I guess it may have sound nice to some, but I am sad to say those individuals would be better off with something from Best Buy. Having run the same cart (Koetsu Rosewood) on arms like an Ittok, Morch, Sheu and SME it is clear that an RB is not suited for quality carts.

I previously said an RB is a good budget arm, but in reality even that is not true. Having compared a modified RB250 against arms that are availably for very cheap like an SME3009 and Mayware Formula 4 the RB is only a good buy for a person with no setup skills.

Lastly, I am not a snob. I spend many hours listening to and a large chunk of my disposable income on music. I could not care less what brand of equipment I use; in fact all my amplification devices (phono, pre, power) are home built. Like most audiophiles I simply want the best possible music reproduction for my money. An RB250/300 fails miserably at that.

Regards
Paul

So much ignorance running rampant!!!

Stan. Ouch on your remarks of the Koetsu. I really enjoy mine. :-)

I agree fully on the RB tone arms. I have owned a couple over the years in various states of modification and they are no more than junk once a certain level of performance is required.

You mention carts like Zyx but my experience is that even lesser carts like Dynavector 10x5 and Denon DL103 are wasted on an RB. I have run a DL103 on a modified RB250, SME3009 and Scheu Classic. It was evident that the sonics the RB produced was not even close to what the others were capable of.

I think when used on a noisy table like one of the old idler wheel decks or a direct drive an RB will probably work well as its shortcomings will be masked by the noise of deck.

Regards
Paul

I had a P3 as my first 'phile table, and was pleased even before I knew it was fast. I did buy a used Sota Sapphire and was pleasantly suprised at all the new detail I could extract from a disc. The tonearm is a Rega 250, I got tired of the spring stories and turning the VTF dial to 3 as mentioned here on the 'Gon to eliminate the spring factor. (I just wanted to measure accuratley with a digital scale, by moving the counterweight with nothing else in the equation) The Sota is a good table in the used market, and are studier than the Rega if you happen to bump it. The Rega tonearms are a great buy with all the aftermarket endstubs and counterweights on Ebay and the like. Currently I use a ZYX Yatra on my Rega 250 and have tried a Shelter 901 too, both have made great music on this tonearm. A great tonearm if you don't want to break the bank. The 250 does not have the spring, but has plastic for the endstub and counterweight. I believe there is someone on Ebay that has both machined from copper for $60, not bad considering the Heavyweight and Kerry Audio F2 are both $100 and up.

Back to the question at hand, here's a nice possibility-Microseiki

I respect your flawed opinion. We are not using Wheatons, Schroeders, and Grahams because of hype rather their ability to track more accurately than a Rega with an inherently poor bearing design. Again I repeat, no real reference analog system uses Rega tonearms. This is not a vanity issue simply one of performance. Read the threads on Audiogon my friend and see what tonearms are used with the cartridges I mentioned. Time to smell the coffee and live in the 21st century. Indisputable to an informed audiophile. Come join us.
I deliberately did not mention Koetsu, because like the dinosaur, they have outlived their usefulness and purpose to live forever in posterity with the Desoto, Edsel, Lafayette, Heathkit, and Scotts of the automotive and audio world. They have been replaced by Zyx and Shelter. Enough is enough. This is much too easy.

Heresy is my bread and butter, no disingenuousness here, and "facts" as you say, are not facts, which IS disingenuousness. If the Regas can track upper-level Kisekis, then they can track upper-level Koetsus (as they in fact do). I fail to see how the list of cartridges you list differ physically so much from Kisekis and Koetsus, or indeed Denons and Audio Technicas and so cannot be tracked by a tonearm with excellent bearings and internal damping (i.e. the brilliant variable-thickness wall) and finally, proper mass-matching. Perhaps you can explain this "fact" to me. It's a new one on me that Koetsu, to name a current name, does not manufacture high-end cartridges, but evidently you read the high-end mags stuffed with over-priced new-and-improved goodies, judge by price tag and freshness (newer is better), and perhaps consider the Koetsus "passé". In recent tests/comparisons, the top-of-the-line Koetsu (Hi Fi + magazine) was not as good in some areas as the top-of-the-line Kiseki of the '80s period, there has been change yes, and improvement in some areas, but at a cost in other areas. It's easy to design for and listen for only Detail Uber-Alles, but unfortunately for you and too many misguided audiophiles, music is far more complex than that. I stand by my analysis of the extreme balance of the Rega tonearm (especially the RB300), a quality more elusive and hard to identify than the simple tinkling of bells. In other areas tonearms old and new surpass the Regas, but overall is another story. The reason most (not all) do not mount the list of "elite" cartridges you list on Rega RB250s and RB300s is simple-minded snobbery, Audio-as-Status, nothing else: these tonearms are too cheap, and hence cannot be any good, end of story. Evidently, the controversy over the quality of the Rega tonearms continues even if some are getting bored by their ubiquity: this controversy has everything to do with too high a level of performance for too low a price. And don't worry, you haven't hurt my feelings, you have heartened me to see that the Regas continue to generate some excitement, and confirm me in my opinion that price-tag and its attendant status - the reason for the controversy in the early days of its release - has far too great an impact on perception.

None of the pick ups you listed are among the truly high performance cartridges I was alluding to. Those include Zyz Airy, Zyx UNIverse, Benz Micro Ruby, Shelter 90X, Dynavector XX and XV-1, vdH Colibri and Grasshopper, etc. I'm sure the 300 will track the cartridges you list but I maintain, quite accurately, that it will not extract all of the information that a better arm will.
The 250 and 300 are nothing more than entry level to mid-level performing arms. To speak of them in the same breath as world class tonearms such as Wheaton, Schroeder, Graham, etc. is not only disingenuous but bordering on heresy. Nobody but nobody with a high end reference level analog system uses the 250 or 300 simply because they are physically unable to handle elite cartridges. Sorry to hurt your feelings but facts are facts. Good luck.
S

Lots of good suggestions here, the trouble now with the resurgence of interest in vinyl (the other day in the used shop teenagers were agog at the records - Hey take that Abba!...My God that's early Punk!" - and talking about buying record players, this is a common experience, methinks people are getting tired of convenient but untactile unsatisfactory techno-gadgets, people need hands-on experience like they need air, and remote-control and subatomic physics ain't the way) is there are too many choices, and when one factors in used 'tables and DIY projects the choices become bewildering: get ye to a shop and try to hear/see/touch some alternatives.

Stan, with respect to the Rega tonearms I dispute it: I've used my Rega RB300 with a variety of high-end cartridges over the years, and currently use it with a new Denon DL-103 (reputedly difficult), an Audio Technica OC9, a Supex 900, and a Kiseki Blue and Kiseki Purpleheart Sapphire (roughly equivalent to an upper-end Koetsu, which are also very successfully used on Regas) with no problems, not to mention a host of other cartridges over the years. I have not yet found the MC which my RB300 cannot track and since so many do in fact use the cheaper Dynavectors (10X5, DV20X) and the Benzes (Ace, Glider) of this world on them, I have trouble believing they cannot track the more expensive ones, which are more refined, not more difficult. The Roksan was the first turntable in the mid-Eighties to knock the Linn LP12/Ittok off its pedestal, and this was accomplished in combination with the Rega RB300 tonearm and pretty well every MC available on the market, especially the high-end ones. Roksan was not the only and is not the only high-end turntable manufacturer to sell their 'tables with the Rega tonearms, the upper-end Thorenses are sold with them, the Michells are sold with them, the Basis is sold with them, I had mine mounted on an Audiomeca for a while and it sounded truly excelent here, and so on. Just 'cause they're cheap (the RB250 and RB300) and very common (I know this gets boring) is no reason to underestimate them, they were revolutionary when they were first released, the new Big Bad Boy on the block which embarrassed many expensive items, people have forgotten this now they are ubiquitous and so apparently over-hyped. While various tonearms beat the Rega in various departments, none are so perfectly balanced both in terms of energy (it is more energetic than the big SMEs) and the usual audiophile obssessions with detail, bandwidth and imaging, when an MC is hung on the end of it and it is mounted to a good-quality turntable. Unless quality has gone down (I have not compared a new RB300 to my older tungsten-counterweight one, but it would be interesting), they are truly stellar and are ubiquitous precisely because they offer so much performance for so little money. High-end dealers of course don't like to hear this sort of thing, as there's not much profit in it for them, and so they and their Audio-as-Status cronies disseminate the Rega-as-Overhyped propaganda which seems to be becoming more and more common. I've been planning on buying a Dynavector 17D MKII (one of two classic cartridges remaining I want for my collection, the other being an Ortofon SPU), also reputedly dfficult, and will eventually report on its synergy with the Rega RB300.

A great TT for that money (with a outboard speed control)
is the Pro-Ject 1 Expression.

Another one to consider, a bit different from either the Technics or the P3, and even cheaper used (at most $350 total for a mint one) is a Dual CS-5000. I had one in my closet that I had never used and set up recently to in order to sell, and I was shocked at how good it sounded. Really good - it's a very balanced, neutral presentation. Also a very good-looking design if that matters - much nicer than the Technics 1200.

It has some quirks (such as a funky headshell with VTA built in and a not-so-great tonearm), but in it's favor is that yes, it's belt drive, but has quartz regulated speed control - a very unusual combination. AND it plays 78rpm! AND it has auto shut-off at the end of the lp (which is really nice for those listening/naps). I was very tempted to keep it but my wife kept the heat on me til it was gone.

Dv,

There's a misconception amoung those who start a foray into vinyl reproduction that comes from thier history in digital electroincs. You CAN buy a good CD-player and then be happy (how else to explain the prevelence of digiophiles out there today?). However, when you get into turntables, the story becomes one of "systematics". While picking a good table is one step, you have to match it with equally-as-good cartridge, arm (upper-priced setups), and phonostage.

When you say "what turntable to buy for under $600?", I say "What vinyl system should you get for $600?".

People here are blantantly recommending the Rega P3, however I feel that the Rega is more considering the cart and stage (if you got the money, get a stage seperately). However, all is not lost. Look at my guidelines, and consider my input as you go forth...and welcome.

1. Music Hall 2.1, Denon DL160, and used Lehman Black Cube

2. Moth Alamo, Goldring Eroica (used). Use the stage you have for now, and then move up to a Ming Xa phono preamp

any thoughts,

Marty

Rega tonearms are far far far from being "world class". They will not track ANY of the finer Zyx, Shelter, or Dynavector cartridges accurately. That is indisputable.

Like all threads, which are a form of conversation, the subject strays from the path, which is what makes it interesting. The least finicky and simple good-quality musical turntable for a beginner is the Rega P3, which might indeed be all the turntable anyone ever needs, and assorted similar designs such as the Projects and the MMFs. Also the Technics 1200s DD, which are also painless and easy to use and have an upgrade path provided by KAB, should the buyer ever decide he wants more (upgrades for the P3 are more along the lines of DIY tweaking). However, the Rega tonearms ARE superb, far better than "fair (better than the Rega turntables) but again, vastly over rated and even when rewired and modified, marginal performers at best". These are world-class tonearms with a different set of strengths and weaknesses to other and far more expensive alternatives, barring vintage: I much prefer them to the high-end SME tonearms, for instance. Idler-weel drives were abandoned for reasons which have nothing to do with sound quality and mostly to do with profit: it is FAR more expensive to produce a good-quality idler-wheel drive (or direct-drive for that matter) than to attach a dinky motor to a bearing via a rubber band. Nevertheless, the rubber band approach can yield good reproduction which far surpasses digital media in musically-important ways, and for a beginner wanting simplicity an elegant Rega P3 or Technics SL-1200 is just the ticket.

Stefanl wrote:
>>If a table is suitable for broadcast and DJ duties would it not be already some way towards the goal of good sound reproduction?<<

Stanhifi replied:
>> Faulty logic. These tables were originally designed for bull work, heavy duty use, and durability not superior sonics. Hope that helps you understand. >>

The SL-1200mk2 was not initially built for DJing or 'bull work'. The fact that it has become _the_ standard DJ turntable is a testament to the quality and ruggedness of construction. The sonics of a DJ table is largely derived from the special DJ cartrigdes used - those are the ones you want to avoid!

- Harald