Like all threads, which are a form of conversation, the subject strays from the path, which is what makes it interesting. The least finicky and simple good-quality musical turntable for a beginner is the Rega P3, which might indeed be all the turntable anyone ever needs, and assorted similar designs such as the Projects and the MMFs. Also the Technics 1200s DD, which are also painless and easy to use and have an upgrade path provided by KAB, should the buyer ever decide he wants more (upgrades for the P3 are more along the lines of DIY tweaking). However, the Rega tonearms ARE superb, far better than "fair (better than the Rega turntables) but again, vastly over rated and even when rewired and modified, marginal performers at best". These are world-class tonearms with a different set of strengths and weaknesses to other and far more expensive alternatives, barring vintage: I much prefer them to the high-end SME tonearms, for instance. Idler-weel drives were abandoned for reasons which have nothing to do with sound quality and mostly to do with profit: it is FAR more expensive to produce a good-quality idler-wheel drive (or direct-drive for that matter) than to attach a dinky motor to a bearing via a rubber band. Nevertheless, the rubber band approach can yield good reproduction which far surpasses digital media in musically-important ways, and for a beginner wanting simplicity an elegant Rega P3 or Technics SL-1200 is just the ticket. |
Lots of good suggestions here, the trouble now with the resurgence of interest in vinyl (the other day in the used shop teenagers were agog at the records - Hey take that Abba!...My God that's early Punk!" - and talking about buying record players, this is a common experience, methinks people are getting tired of convenient but untactile unsatisfactory techno-gadgets, people need hands-on experience like they need air, and remote-control and subatomic physics ain't the way) is there are too many choices, and when one factors in used 'tables and DIY projects the choices become bewildering: get ye to a shop and try to hear/see/touch some alternatives.
Stan, with respect to the Rega tonearms I dispute it: I've used my Rega RB300 with a variety of high-end cartridges over the years, and currently use it with a new Denon DL-103 (reputedly difficult), an Audio Technica OC9, a Supex 900, and a Kiseki Blue and Kiseki Purpleheart Sapphire (roughly equivalent to an upper-end Koetsu, which are also very successfully used on Regas) with no problems, not to mention a host of other cartridges over the years. I have not yet found the MC which my RB300 cannot track and since so many do in fact use the cheaper Dynavectors (10X5, DV20X) and the Benzes (Ace, Glider) of this world on them, I have trouble believing they cannot track the more expensive ones, which are more refined, not more difficult. The Roksan was the first turntable in the mid-Eighties to knock the Linn LP12/Ittok off its pedestal, and this was accomplished in combination with the Rega RB300 tonearm and pretty well every MC available on the market, especially the high-end ones. Roksan was not the only and is not the only high-end turntable manufacturer to sell their 'tables with the Rega tonearms, the upper-end Thorenses are sold with them, the Michells are sold with them, the Basis is sold with them, I had mine mounted on an Audiomeca for a while and it sounded truly excelent here, and so on. Just 'cause they're cheap (the RB250 and RB300) and very common (I know this gets boring) is no reason to underestimate them, they were revolutionary when they were first released, the new Big Bad Boy on the block which embarrassed many expensive items, people have forgotten this now they are ubiquitous and so apparently over-hyped. While various tonearms beat the Rega in various departments, none are so perfectly balanced both in terms of energy (it is more energetic than the big SMEs) and the usual audiophile obssessions with detail, bandwidth and imaging, when an MC is hung on the end of it and it is mounted to a good-quality turntable. Unless quality has gone down (I have not compared a new RB300 to my older tungsten-counterweight one, but it would be interesting), they are truly stellar and are ubiquitous precisely because they offer so much performance for so little money. High-end dealers of course don't like to hear this sort of thing, as there's not much profit in it for them, and so they and their Audio-as-Status cronies disseminate the Rega-as-Overhyped propaganda which seems to be becoming more and more common. I've been planning on buying a Dynavector 17D MKII (one of two classic cartridges remaining I want for my collection, the other being an Ortofon SPU), also reputedly dfficult, and will eventually report on its synergy with the Rega RB300. |
Heresy is my bread and butter, no disingenuousness here, and "facts" as you say, are not facts, which IS disingenuousness. If the Regas can track upper-level Kisekis, then they can track upper-level Koetsus (as they in fact do). I fail to see how the list of cartridges you list differ physically so much from Kisekis and Koetsus, or indeed Denons and Audio Technicas and so cannot be tracked by a tonearm with excellent bearings and internal damping (i.e. the brilliant variable-thickness wall) and finally, proper mass-matching. Perhaps you can explain this "fact" to me. It's a new one on me that Koetsu, to name a current name, does not manufacture high-end cartridges, but evidently you read the high-end mags stuffed with over-priced new-and-improved goodies, judge by price tag and freshness (newer is better), and perhaps consider the Koetsus "passé". In recent tests/comparisons, the top-of-the-line Koetsu (Hi Fi + magazine) was not as good in some areas as the top-of-the-line Kiseki of the '80s period, there has been change yes, and improvement in some areas, but at a cost in other areas. It's easy to design for and listen for only Detail Uber-Alles, but unfortunately for you and too many misguided audiophiles, music is far more complex than that. I stand by my analysis of the extreme balance of the Rega tonearm (especially the RB300), a quality more elusive and hard to identify than the simple tinkling of bells. In other areas tonearms old and new surpass the Regas, but overall is another story. The reason most (not all) do not mount the list of "elite" cartridges you list on Rega RB250s and RB300s is simple-minded snobbery, Audio-as-Status, nothing else: these tonearms are too cheap, and hence cannot be any good, end of story. Evidently, the controversy over the quality of the Rega tonearms continues even if some are getting bored by their ubiquity: this controversy has everything to do with too high a level of performance for too low a price. And don't worry, you haven't hurt my feelings, you have heartened me to see that the Regas continue to generate some excitement, and confirm me in my opinion that price-tag and its attendant status - the reason for the controversy in the early days of its release - has far too great an impact on perception. |
Now I feel sory for Dvdgreco, he's been cast into a shark-filled tank, but glad to see you haven't been scared off! There are large differences in sound between these various 'tables (and between your Technics and the heavier ones), but in wanting a reliable, simple turntable that doesn't require finicky set-up you pretty well rule out suspended turntables and a variety of others with outboard motors, and so once again the Rega P3 (simple, elegant, musical and easy to get/hear, though a wall-mount and a heavy slab are a good idea for isolation, as for any light unsuspended design) and Technics SL1200 (tons of upgrade potential as Psychicanimal points out and also easy to use) are your best bets. Then there are the Projects, MMFs, and lower-end VPIs. Most audiophiles consider belt-drives the only game in town, and this does make life simpler and reduces your possibilities. But, life isn't so simple, these belt-drivers are wrong, both idler-wheel drives (off your list due to difficulties) and DDs can sound superb, and both beat belt-drives when it comes to bass quality and detail, and in other areas depending on how far you take them. I think you should try to actually hear some of these if possible, see them in the flesh (we do operate on visuals/impressions to a certain extent), and trust your instincts: when one of them brings you into the music better than the others (bring some LPs), then you've found your 'table (of course, then cartridge, phono stage also influences sound, but you can't control every aspect of these auditions). Good luck.
Pauly, there are very large and fundamental physical differences between the Rega RB300 and the RB250 (now I'll have the Rega Brigade after me), in comparisons I have done, as well as magazines, and contrary to findings posted all over the internet, the Rega RB300 is significantly more refined (the bearings and bearing materials different) than the '250, hearing one does not give you an adequate idea of the other, you are making an error in judgment. The '250 is brash and bright compared to the '300 (the comparison done with the same wiring and same metal end-stub/counterweight), and I suspect that its popularity is partly attributable to its synergy with darker systems, or for ears attuned to bright/thin digital media as opposed to ears attuned strictly to analog like mine (though I have a CD player I use for background music and to tape music for the car). Of course, to realize its potential, the RB300 wiring has got to go, a hidden cost and bother. The Mayware and SME 3009 are two of the vintage tonearms I alluded to which surpass the Rega in certain areas, but neither has the gestalt (music of a piece) balance and control (especially in the high frequencies with difficult MCs) of the RB300 when it comes to MCs, though both beat it for speed and detail (assuming metal knife-edge beartings for the SME). On the other hand, the Rega RB300 (re-wired) is in turn far more musically convincing (lively and dynamic) than the SME IV I auditioned at length in my system and in others of finer pedigree/resolution than mine, which is why I adorer the musical balance of the RB300: it walks the fine line between too much control (big SMEs) and not enough, and maintains a beautiful balance from lows (tremendous when mounted on a big, heavy idler-wheel drive) to highs (control of MCs), balancing musical energy and information perfectly, like a cat walking on a beam. It doesn't have the sparkle of some, but is long-temr satisfying.
Thanks for the warning Newmanoc, but perhaps the 17D requires prolonged burn-in as so many MCs do, or do you know someone who has kept one long-term and come to the same conclusion? I confess I am in love with the engineering of this cartridge, and my big idler-wheel drives do a lot to inject bass where there was none before. I'll try to find one to audition before I make the leap. |
There sure is a lot of talk of "facts" on this thread. So here's some actual facts, get ready to shell out your money Pauly, I expect it to be in a flash:
"In defense of my poor maligned TNT, Jean, even you admitted it is quite a musical turntable, more so since I replaced its Dyna 10X5 with a second Denon DL-103. But it WAS rather massacred by the Lenco, I'll be the first to admit."
"i bought an LP12 with valhalla and ittok initially and was quite pleased for a while. for me (and my ten thumbs), set-up issues plagued that particular table. i heard a basic teres setup and promptly sold the linn as the sound quality bested the linn by an embarassingly large margin. i then had a teres 245 with moerch dp-6 and allaerts mc-1b. unfortunately, my teres had problems of it's own (recurrent motor controller faults, cracked base that had to be replaced, etc. etc.). i now use a modified lenco L-75 with moerch dp-6 arm and denon DL-160 cartridge and have achieved what is easily the best sound (and reliability) to date.
flyingred's concluding remark pretty well sums it up. whatever table/arm/cart combination you eventually decide upon, enjoy the music!"
"I have had a fantastic evening's listening. The Lenco is everything claimed here and more. As forecast by Jean, there is bass in abundance (not a noted Koetsu characteristic), fantastic dynamics, energy, slam, PRaT, call it what you will, and the detail and clarity are stunning. I have been listening to some serious money turntables over the last few months and the budget Lenco beats most of them - I'm not sure yet whether it's better than a Galibier I heard a few weeks ago but it's pretty close. I'll be better able to comment when I put the DL-103 on the FR64. There's no doubt in my mind that the Lenco is preferable to the Teres 265 and 360, Nottinham Spacedeck and Hyperspace, SME 10, Kuzma Stabi and of course my old Linn."
The traditional defense against these types of actual verifications of the claims presented here is that a) there was something wrong with the set-up; and b) the system was not of sufficient quality. The gist of all defenses against actual verification so far is that since it contradicts Dogma/belief, then something HAD to be wrong somewhere, this could NOT be accurate, therefore it could not be, period. Or you could accept them as evidence, put your money where your mouth is, and join in the Great Lenco Experiment, and risk having some fun in the process. But please, hold back on all the "facts", as you yourself wrote, "Have you ever spent time and listened to a $1500 cart? Do you even know what they sound like?" Substitute "Garrard" or "Lenco" for "$1500 cart". |
Pauly, "It is easier to write upon the water, than to teach a fool anything" (Khalil Gibran), a fool being someone who refuses to learn what he does not want to learn, meaning he will never learn anything of value and so remain a fool. The quotes for the most part were from the owners of said 'tables, or have you a hard time reading? Owners, it goes without saying, are far more familiar with the performance/sound of their turntables than reviewers who spend a short period with them. And what makes you think that reviewers, who MUST always tout Progress (or there would be no reason to buy new things) and thus guarantee enough advertising to ensure survival of the magazine (a conflict of interest of ever there was one), are a better source than the owners of the 'tables who have sunk their cash and egos into them? In fact, it is likelier that these folk would find for their chosen 'tables than for the cheap'n cheerful Lencos, and so admit their error, human nature being what it is (you are a prime example of such personal weaknesses). There is a very large difference between the fellow who listened to various 'tables and you: he was willing to learn, and did hear a Lenco. I have in fact heard the Lenco against a large variety of high-end 'tables (I have even had the temerity to buy and rebuild a Technics SP10 MKII to give DDs the best chance I could so I could decide for myself based on actual experience, rather than rely on hearsay), having owned a few highly-regarded ones myself over the years. This is true as well of those I quoted and many more I did not. Your arguments fit into my classification - "The gist of all defenses against actual verification so far is that since it contradicts Dogma/belief, then something HAD to be wrong somewhere, this could NOT be accurate, therefore it could not be, period" - thanks for bearing me out on this and providing such a brilliant example. If you decide you want to actually learn something new and throw the closed doors of your mind open (many have done, rethinking their stand), then contact me, I'll be happy to help you find and hear either a properly set-up Lenco or a Garrard.
And for the record, here's an excerpt from a 6moons article by Jeff Day. For context, in comparing a grease-bearing Garrard 301 (that Sugano who designed your beloved Koetsus had the good sense to use both for listening and in the design of the Koetsus) I rebuilt to a Lenco with identical tonearms and cartridges (yes, I actually took the extreme action of actually listening to a Garrard 301, and forming an opinion from actual experience!), I could hear no differences: "The Garrard fills the room with a big, billowing sense of space that extends well outside the location of the speakers, with a deep soundstage that retains naturally sized images that are infused with the breath of life-like humanness. One of the things I've noticed -- and Terry Cain commented on it too -- is that the Garrard has a definite sense of drive & PRaT (pace, rhythm and timing) that brings the music to life. Paul Chamber's bass playing on "Alone Together" has a sense of tautness, propulsion & rhythmic nuance that completely escapes my very fine $8000 Meridian 508.20/Audio Logic 2400 transport/DAC combination. A number of Garrardissimos I have talked to contribute this to the idler wheel design. I don't know if it's the idler wheel or not but the Garrard 301 has the PRaT thing down pat in the best of the English tradition. It's easy to understand why such a great mystique has grown up around the Garrard 301 after spending some time with it. It really is an incredible table. There is rich musicality to the music produced by the Garrard 301. It conveys the mood of the music in fine fashion and with a great sense of correct tonality. Simply put, the Garrard 301 is a tone monster! It's also a rhythm king. You'll always understand the intricacies of the rhythm with this vintage setup. Think of the boring beat of that one-note metronomic bass line that you hear in many recordings with most tables. It's there but it's not much of an inspiration. The Garrard 301 takes that seemingly one-note bass line and infuses into it the musicians' subtle (or not so) stylings in tempo, dynamics, phrasing and harmonic structure to give it feeling. And guess what? The Garrard doesn't just do that with bass, it does it with all the instruments and voices that make up the musical whole to produce a very cohesive & life-like musical experience that oozes emotions. The Garrard also gives a sense of natural burnished warmth and solidity to images. The Garrard conveys the texture of all the components of the music and makes sense of the musical whole. It's also detailed in a very natural-sounding and realistic way. The vintage setup is easy on the ear and has no unnatural edge or glare. On "September Son", Kenny Burrell's guitar intro opens the song and provides the backdrop for when Chet comes in with his trumpet. The two continue to lazily style through the rest of the number. With the Garrard, you get a real feel for the music. You don't just hear the music and admire the sound, you get a glimpse into the emotional makeup of the musicians contributing to it. You understand the music in a way that few other source components can match."
But 6moons is probably not to be counted as evidence by you either, which you will also find some pretext to dismiss. This reminds me of the thread I started a while back, "The High End and Glubglub". This is based on a philosophical discussion on logic: "What he (the skeptic) wants it is logically impossible to supply. But doesn't the logical impossibility of the skeptic's demand defeat his cause? If he raises a logically impossible demand, can we be expected to fulfill it? He says we have no evidence, but whatever we adduce he refuses to count as evidence. At least we know what we would count as evidence, and we show him what it is. But he only shakes his head and says it isn't evidence. But then surely he is using the word "evidence" in a very peculiar way (a meaningless way?), so that nothing whatever would count as a case of it...Might he not just as well say, "There is no glubglub?"..." I have many occasions to trot this out as I have crossed many like you out there in getting the world to go back and have a listen to a discredited technology: whatever the evidence, it is not to be counted as evidence if it contradicts a favoured prejudice. As Stanhifi likes to always write, "this is too easy". Prove me wrong, I have nothing to hide and welcome yet another showdown between a rebuilt Lenco and anything you would like to throw at it. As I wrote long ago at the beginning of my Lenco Challenge, "I throw down the gauntlet" (and 4yanx bravely picked it up, made a serious effort to restore one, compared it to his Nottingham Spacedeck/Graham 2.2/Benz, and sold the Nottingham Spacedeck/Graham 2.2/Benz, and with immense integrity reported his findings on Audiogon, and have many others). None have even matched it so far, in a fair comparison, quality tonearm/cartridge against quality tonearm/cartridge. This might actually stimulate your curiosity.
Anyway, Dvdgreco, ignore these idler-wheel discussions as they don't fit your bill anyway, and concentrate instead on the SL1200 or Regas and others in your price-range. |
