What Turntable to buy under $600 ?

DvdGreco. While I agree the P3 is an easy table to set up and offers a no-worries experience, it is at best a 'beginners' table not really as capable as many people claim.

The Rega arms are fair (better than the Rega turntables) but again, vastly over rated and even when rewired and modified, marginal performers at best.

If you can get a nice VPI HW in your price range you should. An HW 19 is IMHO a table that can produce the goods.

Regards
Paul

Dvdgreko. I have not owned a SOTA Sapphire or Sumiko Premier FT-3 arm, but I have heard the combination is good from a number or reputable (?) posters and I have no doubt in my mind it is substantially better than a P3. If you can get said table in good condition for in your price range, go for it.

Note, for the price an OEM P2 or P3 (Moth, Nad etc.) is hard to beat.

Note2. When purchasing used, try and buy from somebody that knows the game. I have bought tables where the seller shipped with the platter in situ, destroying the bearing.

A number of posters like idler wheel and direct drive tables. I have no intention to annoy these folks but I would suggest you stay well away from them. IMHO they are not really suitable for anything other than broadcast and DJ duties.

Regards
Paul

I second Stanhifi. If idler wheels had sonic merit they would be readily available now. It is not mere coincidence that the all audiophile table are belt driven. The best audiophile turntables are belt driven because at our current level of technology belt drives provides better sound than any (and all) other turntable technologies.

Stan. Ouch on your remarks of the Koetsu. I really enjoy mine. :-)

I agree fully on the RB tone arms. I have owned a couple over the years in various states of modification and they are no more than junk once a certain level of performance is required.

You mention carts like Zyx but my experience is that even lesser carts like Dynavector 10x5 and Denon DL103 are wasted on an RB. I have run a DL103 on a modified RB250, SME3009 and Scheu Classic. It was evident that the sonics the RB produced was not even close to what the others were capable of.

I think when used on a noisy table like one of the old idler wheel decks or a direct drive an RB will probably work well as its shortcomings will be masked by the noise of deck.

Regards
Paul

Johnnantias. RB250 & Rb300 cannot track Koetsus. I have tried and it sounds like sh*t. I guess it may have sound nice to some, but I am sad to say those individuals would be better off with something from Best Buy. Having run the same cart (Koetsu Rosewood) on arms like an Ittok, Morch, Sheu and SME it is clear that an RB is not suited for quality carts.

I previously said an RB is a good budget arm, but in reality even that is not true. Having compared a modified RB250 against arms that are availably for very cheap like an SME3009 and Mayware Formula 4 the RB is only a good buy for a person with no setup skills.

Lastly, I am not a snob. I spend many hours listening to and a large chunk of my disposable income on music. I could not care less what brand of equipment I use; in fact all my amplification devices (phono, pre, power) are home built. Like most audiophiles I simply want the best possible music reproduction for my money. An RB250/300 fails miserably at that.

Regards
Paul

Sean, taking my statements out of context to satisfy your infantile desire to make asinine remarks brings no value to the discussion.

Why don’t you enlighten us how your post is any less [ignorant] than Psychicanimals?

"the Creature on Steroids will be at the $5K performance level"?

LOL! Yep, sure it will, and I bet folks will be beating down you door for that no doubt.

Dvdgreco. A $100 could improve your table to a level that may suffice, so you should consider it by all means. As an avid tweaker myself, I know the satisfaction gleaned from improving existing gear. But it would be very naïve to think a $100 can transform your table to sound like a VPI or Sota. That just aint gonna happen.

Psychic. I appreciate a person who sees the funny side of things. I do too
(most of the time) .

You keep on harping about my ignorance, but from my side the ignorance seems to be yours.

'Greco, take this from the underground: the Creature on Steroids will be at the $5K performance level when fully modded'.

Do you actually know what a $5000 TT sounds like at all? Which $5000 tables have you listened to? Can you provide a list? Who else have listened to your table and the yet unknown $5000 table to verify your objective (?) opinion?

'The modded Groovemaster has the midrange of a $1500 MC cartridge:'

Really? Which $1500 carts are you comparing it to? A Koetsu perhaps? Maybe a Shelter or Zyx? Anything? Have you ever spent time and listened to a $1500 cart? Do you even know what they sound like? Can anybody verify your groovemaster claim?

'A few months ago I got the strobe disabler for my 1200. No other TT has so many options'

Really? Strobe disabler? WTF is that supposed to do? Fix some mistake on the original design perhaps? On a Rega you can change platters, install VTA adjusters, rewire the arm and replace the end stub. You can add a strobe disabler?

For the record, I do not really care what technology is employed on a TT. If a $5000 idler wheel or direct drive comes out that beat the Galabiers, VPIs and Teres tables I’ll buy it in flash. Fact is there are none on the market.

Regards
Paul

Johnnantais. I give you 11 out of 10 for trying, but you are crossing the line into the ridiculous.

'So here's some actual facts'

A few opinions posted on the BB are hardly facts. And no, simply because you really like these opinions don’t make them facts either.

'there is bass in abundance (not a noted Koetsu characteristic)'

Really? I guess I must have an odd Koetsu as my Rosewood pounds at the bass.

'fantastic dynamics, energy, slam, PRaT, call it what you will, and the detail and clarity are stunning'

I have heard people say that about iPods. Can we get a respected audio journalist/critique to say that about a Lenco? Maybe, but I have yet to see that.

'I have been listening to some serious money turntables over the last few months and the budget Lenco beats most of them'

Really? In home or a 10-15 minute listen at an audio show or store? Did you listen to material you are familiar with or not? Are you familiar with neutral and accurate sound, or used to a particular coloration produced by your own equipment? Was the associated equipment the same. What about the arm and carts used? Room acoustics?

Added note – having endured a (painful) karaoke evening a few weeks ago, it was obvious that some individuals actually prefer a colored (read distorted, boomy and smeared) sound. Those individuals are totally unimpressed by an accurate and natural representation of music.

No, I have not listened to a Lenco or Garrard. I have however spend many hours listening to a well restored and well setup TD124. The sound was very colored and there was a very noticeable lack of low level detail. Not nice ...

Regards
Paul

Sean, your point is what?

You quote my statement of "Fact is there are none on the market" and go on to talk about restoring tables that have been OFF the market for 30 odd years?

Surely you do not think that Garrards are still being sold no?

Turntable schmurntable … rubbish

Absolute rubbush. The deck is the most critical part of the front end.

Newton taught us that for every action there is a an equal (in force) but opposite (in direction) reaction. Your needle pressing on the groove makes the groove press back on the needle. The platter construction and the efficiency of the coupling between the LP and platter has a dramatic effect on sound as that influences how the LP presses back on the cart.

Try running with a clamp, anvil and/or periphery ring clamp as apposed to the LP not clamped at all. Huge difference.

A hollow cast iron platter produces a sound very different from one machined from solid aluminum. An acrylic platter sound different from an aluminum or one machined from PVC. These will all sound different from a laminate.

A TT needs to resist airborne vibrations. A wooden box plinth is not to good at that – they pickup these vibrations and transmit them to the platter and tonearm. Best tables have plinths and arm boards made of acoustically dead (i.e. dense) material.

A TT needs to resist vibrations from the object it is placed upon. Put a TT on a resonant table as apposed to an acoustically dead stand and hear the difference. Some will be almost immune while other will have a noticeable degrading of sonics.

Friction of the bearing platter has a huge effect on sound. People don’t pay thousands for air-bearing because they’re 'cool'.

The coupling between plinth and arm board is a factor. The arm board/arm pod should not move in relation to the platter.

I don’t believe I have even scratched the surface. With a crummy deck even the best arm and cart will sound like shyte.

Sean, I was unaware Garrards were still available new. I was wrong, you were right.

Are they better than Teres, VPI, Galabier and Progressive though? I doubt that and I doubt you will disagree on that either. In fact, I’ll eat my record collection if they are better – you can be a witness.

I may get one for my 78’s though.

Regards
Paul

Johnnantias.

I guess reverting to insults when you cannot produce objective reasons for your views is probably as good as you can do. Throwing insults at me is rather sad as you know nothing about me personally, nothing about my musical requirements, musical tastes, my equipment or experience in audio. Like Physic you do not respond to legitimate questions directly, rather sidestep and counter with insults. In the circles I move in that is considered as somewhat infantile behavior, but I understand it may be totally acceptable in yours so no offence taken on my part

FYI, the advice you gave dvdgreco echo what I gave him before you eccentrics climbed out the woodwork. Rather foolish after calling me the fool no?

I do not reject your so-called 'Lenco challenge' out of ignorance, but due to a number of objective reasons and subjective experiences/observations I have had over many years in the hobby. Saying you are “throwing down the gauntlet” is not unlike a heroin addict telling me not to knock it till I try it. No, I need some objective reasons before spending money effort and time – all you have come up with is hearsay.

In fact you preference of an modified RB300 over a SME IV tells me the table has some serious flaws.

As somebody that builds my own vacuum amps, I also succumb to having a less critical ear for my own creations. So I do not begrudge people that restore antique tables. Unlike you, I can at least come up with a couple of objective reasons why the amps I built are more suitable for audio than most commercial transistor amps.

Regards
Paul