Reread the post people. Under $600 (that must include a cartridge, or at least a new stylus if buying used). Not finicky, simple to setup.
I recommended the P3 because I own one, and properly setup it sounds great. I have not heard a KAB1200, but in the price range it would appear to be another contender.
How did we ever get onto idler wheels ? And tables that cost at least $1000 ? |
Right,I guess I have 2 things to answer.Firstly as far as the Rega speed issue goes,they are aware of it and there is a little published fix for it that is Rega's official response.I have posted it before and it involves cleaning and replacement of the old oil with 2 DROPS ONLY of 80w/90 gear oil.The second cure is the tape fix around the outer edge of the sub-platter-both fixes I have posted before on this forum.I use the second and it works great.Next there is a thread on this forum that is 2,416 posts long about why idler-wheel drives "kill" belts.Please do some reading here as Jean explains it much better than I can.Suffice to say I am going to build a turntable. |
Rega P3's are often known to run about 1% fast. I find it kind of hilarious that the same people who claim they can hear unmeasurable "sonics" and "inner detail" are also the first to explain away that you can't hear a 1% speed difference. Or that this does not represent a lapse in engineering care.
Rega, of course, does not publish any measurements as far as speed, wow and flutter, or rumble for the P3 (or at least they didn't used to.) They want you to trust in "sonics".
Here's a reprint from a 1977 Gramaphone Magazine (UK) review of the Technics SP10:
"Insulation against outside vibrations or acoustic feedback was excellent. I tried repeating the loading demonstrations I had witnessed in Japan and elsewhere with this machine, of pressing down hard on a record with a Watts Preener or similar cleaning pad, and was again astonished to find that the speed remained true. Therefore a Dust Bug or extra heavy pickup would simply have no effect whatsoever on speed. Since the stroboscope in this machine, however superbly designed, is simply giving a reassuring indication that the platter rotation speed is in agreement with the quartz crystal derived drive, I felt it necessary to check with a separate stroboscope and our (hopefully accurate) mains supply. The result was complete agreement.
Measured drift was virtually zero and wow and flutter was so low, about 0.04 % peak weighted DIN, that I became persuaded that I was merely measuring the amount recorded on my test discs. Subsequently Roger Furness, of the UK agents for Technics, was kind enough to let me have a couple of lacquer test records specially cut to contain lower levels of inherent wow and flutter than is normally attainable. With these I found the SP10 Mk II to produce no more than 0.025% peak. Similarly for rumble measurements I tried all the usual test records and, though the lowest reading obtained was -48dB unweighted, this too was at the lowest limit of the discs' capability. As for mechanical noise, this turntable can best be described as silent: even with an ear close to the unit there is no audible running noise. I know of no unit which can beat this one for silent running."
Think a Rega P3 can match this? Or that it's inferior in all MEASURABLE aspects, yet for some mysterious reason sounds better? Then buy one. |
Stanhifi,You did not cease listening to the radio because of the logic involved?I believe that you can only get about 17.5Khz top frequency limit in broadcast F.M and so what you would have actually heard was not even up to CD standard.This though is no reflection on the turntables used. |
I second Stanhifi. If idler wheels had sonic merit they would be readily available now. It is not mere coincidence that the all audiophile table are belt driven. The best audiophile turntables are belt driven because at our current level of technology belt drives provides better sound than any (and all) other turntable technologies. |
Stanhifi,
Okay, what are your recommendations? |
Awesome responses thus far! My current TT is a Technics direct drive SL-205 with stock S-shaped tonearm and Audi technica AT 440ML cartridge with no set-up performed. Should I invest in a professional set-up or just bite the bullet and buy a used P3 or SOTA? |
>>If a table is suitable for broadcast and DJ duties would it not be already some way towards the goal of good sound reproduction?<<
Faulty logic. These tables were originally designed for bull work, heavy duty use, and durability not superior sonics. Hope that helps you understand. |
If a table is suitable for broadcast and DJ duties would it not be already some way towards the goal of good sound reproduction? Why? Given that idler-wheel drives were ignored with the rise of the Linn LP 12 and never had great arms developed for them,what if someone decided to put the same amount of R&D into developing good arms on idler wheel turntables.What if belt-drives still can't get any kind of speed stability,even today and are an outmoded form of science for use in a turntable,give me 331/3RPM or nothing? Rega Planar 3's also hardly ever seem to run on speed. |
I agree with Harhau - in this price range nothing OBJECTIVELY beats the specs of a 1200 in regards to speed accuracy/stability, and wow/flutter, nor is anything less finicky. And the KAB modded Ortofon 40 is a killer budget cartridge - with no setup needed - that's right ZERO setup. See here:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue17/kaborotfon.htm
The KAB website offers their take on why the 1200 is in a different league than cheaper belt drive tables. You can decide for yourself, but it's worth taking a look at their reasoning.
I have a higher end VPI/SME setup, and I've often considered going back to a DD such as the Technics SP10. |
Dvdgreko. I have not owned a SOTA Sapphire or Sumiko Premier FT-3 arm, but I have heard the combination is good from a number or reputable (?) posters and I have no doubt in my mind it is substantially better than a P3. If you can get said table in good condition for in your price range, go for it.
Note, for the price an OEM P2 or P3 (Moth, Nad etc.) is hard to beat.
Note2. When purchasing used, try and buy from somebody that knows the game. I have bought tables where the seller shipped with the platter in situ, destroying the bearing.
A number of posters like idler wheel and direct drive tables. I have no intention to annoy these folks but I would suggest you stay well away from them. IMHO they are not really suitable for anything other than broadcast and DJ duties.
Regards
Paul |
I'd just like to add a dissenting opinion into the mix: You could consider a KAB modified Technics SL-1200mk2 (or mk3,4,5) with a tonearm damper and external power supply (see www.kabusa.com). You can get a gently used SL-1200mk2 and do the modifications yourself. I am using mine with a high output MC Denon DL-160 cart - reports on the net suggest that a Denon DL-103 is an even better match (but low output and hence not for me). I have owned a Rega Planar 3, but I prefer the Technics. A very nice non-finicky feature is an on-the-fly tonearm height (VTA) adjustment.
Good luck with your search!
- Harald |
What about sota TT? Like SOTA Sapphire with Sumiko Premier FT-3 arm |
DvdGreco. While I agree the P3 is an easy table to set up and offers a no-worries experience, it is at best a 'beginners' table not really as capable as many people claim.
The Rega arms are fair (better than the Rega turntables) but again, vastly over rated and even when rewired and modified, marginal performers at best.
If you can get a nice VPI HW in your price range you should. An HW 19 is IMHO a table that can produce the goods.
Regards
Paul |
C123,
You're right, the rb300 is somewhat pedestrian out of the box, but it's a good value and I thought we were trying to keep to a price point. At $600 for the rig there are tradeoffs that had to be made...and walking instead of riding might be one of them. |
stock rb300 is pedestrian....rb300 with silver wire and a quality heavyweight (michell, others) moves it into another category....AND defeating the spring loaded VTF and using dynamic balancing helps, too! |
Based on the majority, the Rega P3 is a top choice. What about the Sota's or VPI models under $600? If I get these set-up at a dealer do they require frequent adjustments? |
A P3 is hard to beat at this price point. For an absolutely no-worries experience, consider using a Rega cartridge. Rega cartridges and tonearms feature a three point mounting system so you don't have to worry about alignment. Granted, there are better sounding cartridges than the Regas for the same money, but the Rega cartridges aren't bad, and if you hate to fiddle, they're the way to go. |
Agree with postings above about the Rega... and think that the RB300 is definitely a best buy--why else do you see it on other much more expensive tables?
Would probably couple it with something in the Grado line... probably at the low end (new to vinyl might increase the risk of damaging a cartridge until you "get the hang of it")--easy enough to move up later.
The GEODISC is an easy alignment tool that pops up every once in a while used. Put it on the platter, point "line AB" at the pivot point and it provides an overhang and alignment for you that's a good place to start. I'd also take some of that money and invest in a cheap balance (for setting the downforce) and a bubble level (buy it at a hardware store, they break in faster than the audio versions), and some way to clean your vinyl.
Then sit back and enjoy. |
Someone is selling an alignment disk here at audiogon for about $10 that looks like all you need for set up. Its listed in analog under 'table' and is called 'once'. Think I will be ordering one myself. Shipping is included which is good because its coming from Australia.
Fiddling with the setup is part of vinyl, but usually once its set you can forget at least for a while. |
I offer the third vote for a used Rega P3. But I disagree strongly that the RB 300 is a "pedestrian" arm. In fact, considering its price range, it is just the opposite. |
second P3 for ease of setup although the arm is pedestrian when stock.....
a new technics 1200 by kab is a good alternative at 625 and may outlast you....... |
I'm afraid all turntables require finicky setups, or else you're wasting your money on the cartridge. A well aligned and balanced cartridge will sound way better than one that is simply bolted to the arm.
What varies is that some turntables you setup one (finicky) then listen to again and again with little or no adjustment, where others require more frequent resetting.
My rega planar 3 will go years without adjustments, and I use a moving magnet cartridge with a replaceable stylus, so I don't have to reset the cartridge when the stylus wears out.
So, having got that out of the way I'd recommend a rega p3 with a rega or goldring 1000 series cartridge. The goldrings allow you to move up the range by fitting a more expensive stylus if you ever feel the need and the goldring 1042 (top level) holds its own against anything else I've heard in its price range. I've also heard that Denon Dl110 high output MCs work well in the Rega.
The P3 you'll get used on Agon for around $400. I would then take it to a reputable dealer and have the turntable setup and a cartridge fitted. You should then be good to go. You can do the setup yourself with a protractor, but take time as it makes a world of difference. I'd recommend the mirrored protractor from turntablebasics.com.
If you get a used Rega check the oil level in the bearing and clean and refill if necessary (with hypoid gear oil 80w) as many older regas can run dry. |
