Are you posting high again, jitter? Bad jitter! Bad!
What Matters and What is Nonsense
I’ve been an audiophile for approximately 50 years. In my college days, I used to hang around the factory of a very well regarded speaker manufacturer where I learned a lot from the owners. When I started with audio it was a technical hobby. You were expected to know something about electronics and acoustics. Listening was important, but understanding why something sounded good or not so good was just as important. No one in 1968 would have known what you were talking about if you said you had tweaked your system and it sounded so much better. But if you talked about constant power output with frequency, or pleasing second-order harmonic distortion versus jarring odd-order harmonics in amplification, you were part of the tribe.
Starting in the 1980s, a lot of pseudo scientific nonsense started appearing. Power cords were important. One meter interconnects made a big difference. Using a green magic marker on the edge of a CD was amazing. Putting isolation dampers under a CD transport lifted the veil on the music. Ugh. This stuff still make my eyes roll, even after all these years.
So I have decided to impart years and years of hard won knowledge to today’s hobbists who might be interested in reality. This is my list of the steps in the audio reproduction chain, and the relative importance of each step. My ranking of relative importance includes a big dose of cost/benefit ratio. At this point in the evolution of audio, I am assuming digital recording and reproduction.
Item / Importance to the sound on a scale of 1-10 / Cost benefit ratio
Starting in the 1980s, a lot of pseudo scientific nonsense started appearing. Power cords were important. One meter interconnects made a big difference. Using a green magic marker on the edge of a CD was amazing. Putting isolation dampers under a CD transport lifted the veil on the music. Ugh. This stuff still make my eyes roll, even after all these years.
So I have decided to impart years and years of hard won knowledge to today’s hobbists who might be interested in reality. This is my list of the steps in the audio reproduction chain, and the relative importance of each step. My ranking of relative importance includes a big dose of cost/benefit ratio. At this point in the evolution of audio, I am assuming digital recording and reproduction.
Item / Importance to the sound on a scale of 1-10 / Cost benefit ratio
- The room the recording was made in / 8 / Nothing you can do about it
- The microphones and setup used in the recording / 8 / nothing you can do about it.
- The equalization and mixing of the recording / 10 / Nothing you can do about it
- The technology used for the recording (analog, digital, sample rate, etc.) / 5 / nothing you can do about it.
- The format of the consumer recording (vinyl, CD, DSD, etc.) 44.1 - 16 really is good enough / 3 / moderate CB ratio
- The playback device i.e. cartridge or DAC / 5 / can be a horribe CB ratio - do this almost last
- The electronics - preamp and amp / 4 / the amount of money wasted on $5,000 preamps and amps is amazing.
- Low leve interconnects / 2 / save your money, folks
- Speaker cables / 3 / another place to save your money
- Speakers / 10 / very very high cost to benefit ratio. Spend your money here.
- Listening room / 9 / an excellent place to put your money. DSPs have revolutionized audio reproduction
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Regarding Roger Skoff's article, some in the media have discussed the topic of aesthetics and casework since the 1980s. Probably no one more than Sam Tellig at Stereophile, who had shall we say, a more than comfortable relationship with several manufacturers, which translated into a disproportionate numbers of reviews for them. Sam's reviews featured far more manufacturer quotes than any reviewer I can think of, including some actual figures at times. He once mentioned a manufacturer spending 40% of a particular component's unit cost on a faceplate. I don't know Roger personally, and have never owned any XLO cabling. But he's long carried a reputation as one of the better and more forthright and trustworthy people in the business |
@markalarsen : Amen to that. And a good Dac can sound very musical when matched with other electronics (okay ... and speakers) that have been selected for a particular sound. And sorry, ! was away from posting for a while till support fixed a glitch in my account. It wouldn't let me post. For tweaking validation, I do what geoffkait does, and have some fun engineering out my own solutions for: isolation, room acoustics, record/stylus cleaning etc. And i basically try all, or most of the going tweaks. But I don't spend ton of cash on it. I reserve the cash for components and music. I'm trying to figure out, now, if a DS is imperative for streaming music. 96/192 streams sound terrible thru my MF Vink 192. No top end, no bottom end. Cheers. Dave |
So I have to take exception with some of what you wrote. I have listened to a variety of systems as a stereo hobbiest, and the best sounding ones are the ones with the best front end. I’ve listened to modest speakers that sound far better than speaker costing 10 times more when the front end is better. Regarding the listening room, taming the bass and reflections has a major impact on the sound. I’ve build and hung panels through out my listening space with excellent results. As a vinyl guy a better cartridge has a major sonic impact to what you can hear. Upgrading the electrical recepticals to hospital grade provide a very cost effective sonic improvement. |
Maybe it is that once we have really good (not necessarily expensive) speakers that work well in a given room with any necessary acoustic mods, then the front end is noticed more by folks listening for specific details? No question the front end for vinyl, at least stylus through preamplification of tiny signals, is huge. |
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'Clearthink', you need a new handle. Or do you mean that you clearly think you know more than you do? Do you understand that identifying that source would embarrass him, undermine his product and ruin their relationship? Nevermind, enjoy your ignorance and your conspiracy theories. Given you too much of my time. Done now. |
aalenik"Do you understand that identifying that source would embarrass him, undermine his product and ruin their relationship?" It was FAKE NEWS and that is what fake news is with unidentified sources and unspecified details embarassment is sometimes part of reporting facts you sound like another of the second-graders here in American "grammar school" you better get back to your school work or you may have to repeat a grade! |
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aalenik"With all of the juvenile stuff you post, your calling me a 2nd grader?Since you don't read well, I'll repeat...Given you too much of my time. Done now." Yes you will want to return to your schoolwork so that you can complete you're grade and avoid summer school it is a good idea for you not to waste any more time here you can not get away with the "dog ate my homework" excuse more than once. |
markalarsen"@clearthink also appears to suffer from a reading impairment. His handle is a misnomer. It should have rude in it somewhere." You are just a winkly dinkler if you do not like my "handle" you should complain to the team of Moderators who manage, monitor and control this forum. |
I have only one suggestion: Get yourselves a book on the subject of Basic Electronics including DC, AC, and RF. Just as you would not want to be hoodwinked by your Auto Repair shop selling you expensive replacement parts that are neither necessary nor effective; you should be knowledgable enough in the basics of electricity to know when you are being fed a load of Tripe about AC power recepticals and Power cables. |
sisyphus51"I have only one suggestion: Get yourselves a book on the subject of Basic Electronics including DC, AC, and RF...You should be knowledgable enough in the basics of electricity to know when you are being fed a load of Tripe about AC power recepticals and Power cables." It does not matter how long you look Not all of life's answers are found in a book Things are not as simple as they might appear Failure to explore is a sure sign of fear Not all truth is simple Nor the path to it plain When you finally find it Prepare to meet disdain. Ignorance abounds, it thrives everywhere But the facts can be learned If you truly dare. -- Erich G. Fetzenwhaller |
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sisyphus51"Who the Heck is Erich G. Fetzenwhaller? I can find no reference to such a ’Being’! Is he like Mr. Spock?" Failure to explore is a sure sign of fear "Why, then do you fear proven science?" I am not afraid of any "thing" and am certainly not afraid of science and it is not apparent why you would think that I fear science is that what you think about those who do not believe that everything that is to be known can be found in a book? Spock is a fictitious person so no he has nothing to do with Fetzenwhaller at all not even remotely. |
elizabeth Did the lamp produce a more euphonic 60hz buzz and "energetic" light? ;-) I would think that the silver - which is reactive with oxygen - would not be so good for contacts? https://twistedsifter.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/wile-e-coyote-acme-products-catalog.jpg?w=600&... |
sisyphus51"What CAN be found in books is the science of electricity, which was what I was talking about before you injected metaphysics." I wasn't talking about metaphysics at all you are the first to bring that up you recommended a book on "Basic Electronics" and not all of the relevant, important, and applicable information on electricity will be found in a book on "Basic Electronics" which is something that you seem to think can be found there. |
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sisyphus51" You are clearly wrong in your last comment!: If you think that everything there is no know about electricity can be found in a book on "Basic Electronics" then you are grossly oversimplifying a complex matter or otherwise you just don’t know what you are talking about it is not that simple and that is why I posted the wisdom of Erich G. Fetzenwhaller perhaps you should read some of his writings they might enlighten you however most are not in English! |
elizabeth I find you to be really quite reasonable. ;-) |
sisyphus51"Here we go again... "don’t know what (I) am talking about!"Take a Flying leap at a rolling donut! :-) You sound like a very frustrated person, possibly the common consequence of the fractured and corrupt American public educational system of which you are a product in process and that is understandable or perhaps you are just overdue for your afternoon nap in any event I did not say you did not know what you are talking about so you may wish to go and re-read what you responded to what I did say was that was a possibility and the other prime apparent possibility is that you are oversimplifying something too complex for you to fully understand and accept which would a likely case if you believe everything that is to be known about electronics can be found in a "Basic Electronics" text. Actually many people study for many years to earn advanced degrees in electronics and this is done by adventuring far beyond the "Basic Electronics" text with which you may have some familiarity. I urge you to continue your education which will help you not only better understand the world you live in but will help you better control your emotional outbursts here which reveal you are likely still in what Americans call "grammar school." |
geoffkait"Why so angry?" I think sisyphus51 is cranky perhaps because he needs a nap but also possibly because the pressure on children today in what Americans call "grammar school" is much worse than in many other countrys because of what you call "standardized testing." |
Clearthink, " If you think that everything there is no know about electricity can be found in a book on "Basic Electronics" then you are grossly oversimplifying a complex matter or otherwise you just don’t know what you are talking about" That Is what you said! The Basic Electronics I referred to was semester one of a College Level education in Electronic Communication resulting in a Degree and a 1’st - Class FCC License You really are a condecending and egotistical lout! * I suspect that you are overdue for a really good whooping in the parking lot behind the gymnasium! |
Clearthink Why do you keep using the phrase " what Americans term grammar school"? It is NOT an American term by a long stretch, it is English...as in England English. My memory says I attended Heanor Grammar School, Nottinghamshire, England. If any Americans use this term, I personally have never heard anybody use it since moving here in 2000, then they " borrowed" it from the English. Just saying....... |
uberwaltz It is a very long time since the terms Grammar School, or Grade School have been used here in US. Elementary School was a more common description. ;-) I was in Elementary School in 1957 when we were taught the Metric system and science as part of the "International Geophysical Year" . https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Igylogo.jpg/180px-Igylogo.jpg |
"clearthink" You're always yipping about ...America this, America that...You have ZERO idea what you are talking about. You also clearly fail to realize that It just comes across as one of the many axes you have to grid. Your axes are so ground down they have no effect other than to make you sound like more of a freak. Wow...where do these people come from? What the #$%# has happened to this forum? |
clearthink My point is that I am well versed in electronics as it applies to DC; AC; RF; Video and Analog & Digital audio. As someone said: "This is not Rocket Science". Nor does Quantum Mechanics come into play! |
uberwaltz The thing that still confuses me is the Public school / Private school reversal in England. :-) |