What Matters and What is Nonsense


I’ve been an audiophile for approximately 50 years. In my college days, I used to hang around the factory of a very well regarded speaker manufacturer where I learned a lot from the owners. When I started with audio it was a technical hobby. You were expected to know something about electronics and acoustics. Listening was important, but understanding why something sounded good or not so good was just as important. No one in 1968 would have known what you were talking about if you said you had tweaked your system and it sounded so much better. But if you talked about constant power output with frequency, or pleasing second-order harmonic distortion versus jarring odd-order harmonics in amplification, you were part of the tribe.

Starting in the 1980s, a lot of pseudo scientific nonsense started appearing. Power cords were important. One meter interconnects made a big difference. Using a green magic marker on the edge of a CD was amazing. Putting isolation dampers under a CD transport lifted the veil on the music. Ugh. This stuff still make my eyes roll, even after all these years.

So I have decided to impart years and years of hard won knowledge to today’s hobbists who might be interested in reality. This is my list of the steps in the audio reproduction chain, and the relative importance of each step. My ranking of relative importance includes a big dose of cost/benefit ratio. At this point in the evolution of audio, I am assuming digital recording and reproduction.

Item / Importance to the sound on a scale of 1-10 / Cost benefit ratio

  • The room the recording was made in / 8 / Nothing you can do about it
  • The microphones and setup used in the recording / 8 / nothing you can do about it.
  • The equalization and mixing of the recording / 10 / Nothing you can do about it
  • The technology used for the recording (analog, digital, sample rate, etc.) / 5 / nothing you can do about it.
  • The format of the consumer recording (vinyl, CD, DSD, etc.) 44.1 - 16 really is good enough / 3 / moderate CB ratio
  • The playback device i.e. cartridge or DAC / 5 / can be a horribe CB ratio - do this almost last
  • The electronics - preamp and amp / 4 / the amount of money wasted on $5,000 preamps and amps is amazing.
  • Low leve interconnects / 2 / save your money, folks
  • Speaker cables / 3 / another place to save your money
  • Speakers / 10 / very very high cost to benefit ratio. Spend your money here.
  • Listening room / 9 / an excellent place to put your money. DSPs have revolutionized audio reproduction
In summary, buy the best speakers you can afford, and invest in something like Dirac Live or learn how to use REW and buy a MiniDSP HD to implement the filters. Almost everything else is a gross waste of money.
phomchick

Showing 9 responses by playmore

As an addendum, I read the Daniel Drasin referenced by Geof. I appreciate the link and the perspective. It seems to try a little too hard to debunk the debunkers. Most of us and especially those of us in science and medicine know that last years  impossibility is this years fact and sometimes vice versa. BUT the bar is, and should be pretty high to support unlikely or unique claims.  So issues of reproduciblity especially by those who have no financial or profound personal stake in the results is important as is a potential theoretical framework, or at the very least lack of a violation of well established fundamental laws of physics. Sure you can propose those violations also but it helps to be a genius.  A good skeptic DOES listen to and consider unusual  or unlikely proposals and experiences but is fair for them to be...rational and...skeptical.
Good discussion except for the occasional silly snark. The OP opinion/style seems fine to me. Personally I (also) have a strong background in EE as well as being a musician This informs my opinions but doesn't make me The Oracle obviously. . Reasonable but limited funds for audio. For me the most fun is had getting the most sound for my dollar and "sweat equity" as well as learning along the way. So I recap and adjust bias on old equipment and consider tweaks as they come along based on my interest, the cost and the fun factor. I am predisposed to being skeptical to things that seem to violate laws of physics. I understand and do not denigrate the human nature of expected outcomes. To me certain claims seem more like belief systems akin to religion or the Paranormal etc, which is also a big part of the human condition.  Nothing wrong with that as long as not hurting other people.  I think it is valid for "skeptics" to warn other interested parties, which is part of what this forum is about, that, based on science and/or experience, certain claims SEEM improbable to them, preferably without insulting others beliefs and experiences. The reader can decide if such arguments are convincing to them, or not, as they can do for the comments by those with other perspectives.
I tend to work toward a sound that makes my classical and acoustic heroes and folk-rock, sound most realistic, usually involves a mandolin violin and/or a female vocal. The process is a big part of the fun, obvious I know to most of you.
Choosing and placing/adjusting speakers and modding the room when possible is productive and fun.(Walked into a showroom expecting to buy KEF's, walked out with Rega RS3 speakers because the seller correctly though they might do better for what I told him I was after) Re-doing the guts of older electronics is fun and sometimes musically  productive, always educational. I like to solder.
I have tried hard to hear differences in speaker cables and can't.

A quality SVS sub helped refine the sound in a big way. Not miraculous, or jaw dropping, just better. I never notice "phase" or "crossover" issues affecting musical enjoyment. And the individual parts are easier to move around for this old back. (Compared to ginormous main speakers)

Ultimately the best way to get the best acoustic sound is to play it yourself with pals, and/or see it live in a "sound friendly" environment.
I got as much "emotional support" and almost as much aesthetic pleasure from recorded music when I was younger and broker as I do now.
Enjoy the ride because soon, you know, we will all be dead.

(and maybe someone else will a get our stuff in a killer deal at auction and carry it on!)
Thanks Craig159. I might try those Herbie Feet as my wood floor is quite uneven and the spikes on small wood slabs method is a pain to keep in place and level. And if improves my detail or imaging, great!
And I am leaning to switching from AIMP to JRiver as Media Player. I play ripped discs from PC to Schiit Bitfrost in one set up. Seemed like a pretty good way to get "pretty darned good" sound for rational money. But I am not sure if I am getting the best version of output bits from the PC. Will be interesting if I can "hear" any difference from playback software assuming "flat" settings.
Good stuff on JRiver all, thanks. I confess I have been a bit leery of room correction "messin' with my bits", but now that I am in a pretty rotten nearly cuboid listening room I may reconsider. A few well placed 4" absorption squares helped some...
+1 Jareko
The implication is that some speakers can sound way above price point (for certain qualities especially) when the room  and electronics are ideal.
My Alon Trio set up in a good room went from good to great when I replaced amp BK202 with mid period sold state McIntosh fully recapped.
Pre was cj PV8 mod.. Rotel to Cambridge CD quite audible improvement.
Modded Thorens TT good. Revamped Sota Saphire with Alphason tonearm, 40 bucks at an auction sale, priceless. I did have to adapt a PS and build a new suction device for the Sota and buy a $400 cartridge. But hey thats why it's a hobby.
CZ, it is true about post 90's nonsense, but also some very real tech advancements. I suspect in a few years SOME brand new $500 amp will sound better than a modded recapped 80 lb classic monster made by...anybody. Well, you know, in a double blind test...  :  )
Fleschler
Thanks for that post. Just so happens I was looking for a transport to the Bitfrost for CD's not yet ripped or friend  brings over. Replacing a very creaky Marantz 63 (original owner). I have good experience with Pioneer transports but was not sure about DVD versions. Found a DV 05 with no remote for 50 + 20. and the current set up does not allow for remote use easily anyway. Eventually suspect I will stumble on remote.
It will be interesting to compare the ouput from Pioneer analog with Bitfrost from the digital out, real easy to A B with no latency from pre amp.Sound IS better from Bitfrost compared to ancient Marantz.

Speaking of tweaking the current pre is an older Denon IC based unit recapped and all Op Amps changed to modern high level versions. The pv8 currently lives elsewhere. The re do went well meaning I did not induce oscillation with high speed opamps or otherwise bugger it up and seems to not be the limitting factor in the system. By comparing to no pre amp. Helps to have an EE buddy with pro de-soldering equipment to get all the ICs out. The process taught me a lot about op amp design and state of the art of those little dead bug looking things...
Back to the original post, there are a lot of op amps in the production chain of most of what we listen to. I guess we have to be playing pre 1965 or so vinyl to get away from them? So the IC nay sayers have a BIT of explaining to do. Not inviting rants, although thoughtfull informed commentary always welcome. I do like my cj PV8 more, but then, tubes is tubes.
Thanks again again fleschler, I'll report on the Pioneer. (You weren't by chance selling a DV 05 just now for 50 + 20 ?)
: )
fleschler
Thanks for input. I have enough experience to re do some PS caps and a few others as well a cord without messing up too bad. (Some switching supplies can be a bit touchy) Fortunately schematic is on HiFi Engine. Will be using mostly as transport but keeping noise down and plenty of juice to the laser makes sense. Likely will do some chasis damping and maybe the drawer.
I found an interesting CHOICE of "wasapi"  outputs in AIMP software, one labled "Schiit gen 2 USB".(!)  It did seem to improve things into the Bitfrost but am a "bit" confused because I thought bit perfect wasapi was one thing. Need to read more and invite knowledgeable commentary.
Out of respect to OP, moving my speakers a little and hanging some modestly priced absorbers, including behind speakers, makes the most difference. The rest  is mostly fun.
BTW intellectually I have a hard time really believing power cords make a difference but emotionally, a nice robust mechanically stable short as practical cable is quite satisfying. For 20 bucks, a nibbler and solder.
The Mapleshade modded Cambridge CD in the other set up came with what looks like Saran Wrap outer cover on power cord. It is a fun conversation piece if nothing else and the whole thing does sound good.

I choose not to engage with folks who state opinions unpleasantly but dont mind firm opinions, it  being a given that all such are combination of knowledge base, experience and internal synthesis. Most of y'all are great fun and I appreciate it.  A lot of the fun for me is that the stakes are low. It is a good escape from many of our jobs, or civic, political and personal engagements where stakes can be much higher. This is not really the place for that, me thinks.  It is intriguing that on line forums interaction is an evolving communication thing with its own linguistics, sociology, and signal to noise ratio.
Maybe it is that once we have really good (not necessarily expensive) speakers that work well in a given room with any necessary acoustic mods, then the front end is noticed more by folks listening for specific details?  No question the front end for vinyl, at least stylus through preamplification of tiny signals, is huge.