What is turntable “liveliness”.
I have listened to turntables for sixty years. I bought my first high end TT about thirty years… it was revelatory. I do not swap tables often. I do a huge amount of research and then stay with one for fifteen years or so. My most recent upgrade was from a VPI Aries (heavy mass) to a Linn LP12 (light weight, sprung)…very nearly the very top level. Could we please not turn this into a religious thing about Linn… mine is an outstanding TT which compares favorably with any other $45K analog leg (TT, cartridge, and Phonostage)
The term lively comes up in descriptions. One of the differences in character I noticed between the VPI and Linn… which I thought might be considered liveliness was to me a bit of what I perceived as the images very slightly jumping around… the kind of thing you would think of when you see films of “The Flash” maybe vibrating in place. While I found this gave me the feeling of the notes wanting to jump out at me, I found it a bit disconcerting. I attributed it to a relatively light weight rig, that is really good at rejecting low frequency vibrations (it is a sprung table… known to be lively sounding) up to a relatively high frequency… but beyond that not. Something a really heavy rig would not be effected by.
To test my theory, I had a Silent Running Ohio Class vibration platform constructed for my turntable. The image smear, as I called it disappeared. There is no smear and it has great solidity.
Is this attribute “liveliness”?
@pindac Agreed. Concrete made all the difference for me. So much so that any other support or floor compromised the ultimate sound quality.
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@noromance If you like the effect that a Concrete Base has under the supporting structure, in recent years the next best thing to this has been for myself, using Phenolic Resin Impregnated Densified Wood, such as a Panzerholz Type material. I highly recommend this as a Sub Plinth or Sub Plinth - Sub Sub Plinth assembly. My own usage has also extended for it to be used as Plinth Material for a TT.
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@pindac My plinth builder offers slate or Panzerholz between two aluminum plates. I’m tempted but an owner of one said it was a little softer and warmer than slate. Note that my turntable sits on 3" of maple which sits on the concrete blocks which stand on a 4" concrete basement away from other buildings. The maple definitely introduced some sweet woody color. Replacing it with PRIDW might work better than maple. My sound preference is to extract as much detail as possible from the solution without harshness. Thankfully, system sounds wonderful. |
I prefer to suggest Sub Plinths as the initial trials as they will offer a impact on the Sonic that will show the traits of the Board. The Sub Plinth is more ubiquitous and easier to source as a reasonably priced item. The TT Plinth in the same material is carrying additional cost, your want to extract detail, is exactly where the PRIDW Board comes into its own. The New Linn TT, has a version of this material incorporated into the design, even though the description is being used to not let an individual recognise the Brand selected. |
@ghdprentice "Anyone familiar with the term “ lively” as applied to turntables?” Yes! I compared the same soundtrack in dig and vinyl.. dig is a lil dead! only vinyl gives sense of live music! I agree analog sound reproduction path has some challenges and many components involved, where every part of it matters! But, digital way never explained what DA output filter should be used for the best experience.. much too many options and still no satisfaction! |
I have never experienced the "jittery image" you describe - that is wild, but glad you resolved it with better isolation :) As far as "lively" sound, I would attach more to tonal balance placing relative emphasis on higher parts of the frequency spectrum. Having now experienced VPI decks for over a year - I would say they generally have a dark tonal balance. Much more so with the 3D arm materials. The opposite of "lively". They are VERY reactive in audible bass frequencies if your isolation is not good enough (again, especially 3D materials) - this probably feeds into the "dark" character I perceived, but it persists to some degree even with better isolation. I ended up preferring their later metal arm wand builds. By contrast, the Clearaudio Innovation decks tread into slightly "lively" territory. Very clean, tight, and fast in bass. Very clean midband without sounding sterile. Clean, crisp treble without sounding bright. Some might wish for more overall bass energy, but it’s enough for me. These tables are not reactive in audible frequencies (which probably contributes to their "clean" character), but rather they are VERY reactive in subsonic frequencies due to the magnetic bearing. It doesn’t affect the audible spectrum until your woofers are flapping like crazy and /or your amp is pushed into clipping. The SOTA decks (Nova, Cosmos) sonically fall smack in-between these two. Not dark like the VPIs, but not quite so clean as the Clearaudio. Very nice "musical" balance, and with superb built-in isolation. You should still try to avoid the suspension getting excited during playback (it benefits from rigid support). |
I am surprised, after re-reading some of this thread, that apparently no one brought up Ivor Tiefenbrun’s acronym, PRaT. He coined it as a marketing tool for his LP12. Is that what the OP is getting at? The sense of the liveliness of a sprung turntable can possibly come from distortions produced by the belt stretching and contracting as the platter bounces while the unsprung motor remains stationary. The suspension springs can be activated at a "micro" level by variations in stylus drag owing to groove tortuosity, resulting in relative motion between motor and platter. This hobby is like that; sometimes distortions produced in the reproduction process are perceived as adding to verisimilitude. For another example, electronics that produce audible low order harmonic distortion can be perceived as sounding "rich", which for many is attractive. |
I believe the OP... And i believe those who will contradict him... How this is so in my mind ? Simple, Give me any turntable with any system in any room, i will use acoustics basic knowledge to improve the turntable or the Dac perceived results... Then i dont know which is better at any price for all involved brands name between turntables and dacs and almost nobody knows at the end ...( i believe because i had no reason to doubt it that "at the end" but ONLY for some lucky audiophile with TOP acoustic room and TOP designed gear to do the comparison turntables are the best as mikelavigne claim ) But i know very well by experiments what acoustics dispositions and devices linking ears/speakers/room can do and it is huge in almost all case for almost all audiophiles with or without turntables... I dont claim here that there is no differences between gear design quality or gear types... Acoustics matter as much as the gear at least and at last... Then owning dac or turntable matter way less than acoustics for most of us...
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Can’t say that rings a bell as described but should not happen. Maybe a sign of stylus not tracking properly perhaps due to setup and or tonearm/cart mismatch issues. Could also have something to do with inherent cart design and/or performance. Cart picking up some kind of high frequency vibration also a possibility .
Turntables are very brittle devices. A lot can go wrong very easily. |
As a Marketing Term used as Speil to get a reaction, the term' Prat' if invented by a individual from the UK has more than one connotation. As it was directed to a Audience of what one would suggest to be mainly mail. Iy can only be suggested a Misogeny is an underlying context for the creation of the term 'Pfat'
For the Linn TT design, making the Statement as Speil "She's a Belter" might have been kinder to the females of the UK |
Thank you for your comments. I find my observations very roughly follow yours… but you mention dark… I my observational word is solidity. So, definitely not the same but in a broad spectrum… over in the same area. I’ll have to ponder your comments some more. Thanks for your comment. Hmmm, good thought. Of course it went away with isolation.
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@ghdprentice I can definitely see "solidity" being a better term in some contexts. My friend with an HW-40 would call it "solidity" too. Your isolation & support structure, and gear partners (especially cartridge) matter a lot. Choice of arm (metal vs. 3D) also influences this. I think it's no coincidence VPI partners with Van den Hul (lively with lots of top-end energy) and Audio-Technica cartridges. I had great results with a VdH Crimson on VPI, and even more impressive w/ Colibri on Avenger if not for that Colibri being a bit of a sibilance machine (not the table's fault). Across a number of contexts made as similar-as-possible, I extrapolated the VPI tables as being a bit "dark" relative to SOTA and Clearaudio Innovations. The Avenger more so than Aries 3. The 3D / Fatboy arms more so than metal. I really really liked AirTight PC-7 on VPI tables; it can be a little hot on Clearaudio but wow on a VPI. Too bad it was discontinued :( |
