Hey, Tom, I've been using magnets since Christ was a Boy Scout. I'm just objecting to your explanation. For years folks were trying to get rid of magnetic connectors, magnetic steel enclosures, magnetic screws in speakers and wall outlet plates, etc. Who woulda think it, magnets are good! Lol |
Buy one and try one. Or several. Your into trying stuff aren't you. Tom |
Theaudiotweak wrote,
"How about magnets. Magnets enhance the directionality of ac passing thru them much the same as cryo treatment of metals and conductors enhance and unify the direction of their molecules. Results are better sound. Improved dynamics, lower noise."
Couple of nits. One, if you are referring to the music signal, the electromagnetic field, it's a little unlikely that magnets can affect it since the electromagnetic wave is comprised of photons traveling at the speed of light. Like light, the electromagnetic wave in cables is unaffected by magnets. Two, if you are referring to electrons, electrons are not the signal nor are they the current. In addition, the electrons travel extremely slowly in cables, about a meter an hour. So, magnets, one assumes would serve only to slow them down.
Cryogenics, on the other hand, simply rearranges the atoms and molecules of the material making the atomic structure more homogeneous. So, apples and oranges. |
Mapman, I heard you I get it. You're tired and can't think if anything to contribute. I totally understand. Maybe time to sit this one out. Lol |
Almarg, certainly ceteris paribus is sought in a good experiment. When I did my experiments with fuse manufacturers, I did treat all fuses with AudioTop and even tried to clean fuse holders, but many are very difficult to do this, but of course, I am holding an uncleaned fuse holder constant. I also held warm up constant as it took me about equal time to change outside fuses. Of course, listener fatigue was not considered, and I did get bored. You didn't mention that directions might vary from one component to another. I only tested on an amp, but then did some further testing on my preamp.
All of this started long before high end fuses were out. When I got my first Walker Audio turntable, he suggested that I switch the fuse direction in the motor controller. I heard an improvement one way.
You also failed to mention how you really go about this when there are multiple fuses in a component. I have sought to learn the direction from hot to neutral throughout the component. Some manufacturers know and others don't. Basically, I have given up with such components.
I dearly wish someone did an accuracy measurement between the music signal going into the component and that leaving it.
I don't think you can dismiss a difference on the basis of traditional EE laws. |
Good point Al.
If you want to convince skeptics, some due diligence in testing process will go a long way, rather than just saying I hear it so its so.
Or we can just all go find something more productive to do. |
Theaudiotweak wrote,
"How about magnets. Magnets enhance the directionality of ac passing thru them much the same as cryo treatment of metals and conductors enhance and unify the direction of their molecules. Results are better sound. Improved dynamics, lower noise."
Interesting. So, let me get this straight. Are you saying that magnets reverse the direction of current flow or that magnets increase the speed of current or perhaps you mean increase the speed of electrons flowing in the cable? If any if those possibilities are true, how would that improve the sound? And improve the dynamics, and reduce noise? |
Al wrote,
"If any of those at the believer end of the spectrum wish to comment further, they may want to consider providing a description of what specific steps they took in their assessments of directionality differences to assure that the differences they heard were not the result of extraneous variables. Such as those I described in an earlier post, namely differences in contact integrity, equipment being in different states of warmup, differences in AC line voltages and noise conditions, etc. And note that I have not even mentioned until now the vagaries of aural perception."
Al, excellent point. I actually have no problem whatsoever with double blind testing, which you seem to be proposing, or any other type of test, as scientific and as thorough as you might deem necessary, to get to the bottom of this thing. Of course, having said that, I suspect that none of the naysayers will be jumping into the breech to perform any testing. It's the old pseudo skepticism thing, I guess. |
TBG, I think that your second previous post, which was addressed to NoNoise, may have been intended for someone else.
As Mapman indicated, the thread appears to have pretty much run its course, and opinions on all sides have been pretty well covered. As is usual in debates such as this, none of the opinions of any of the protagonists will wind up any different than they were at the start of the thread. Others who may read the thread will of course form their own opinions.
There is, however, one thing which has not yet been addressed by anyone other than me (and to some extent by Frogman, in responding to one of my posts). If any of those at the believer end of the spectrum wish to comment further, they may want to consider providing a description of what specific steps they took in their assessments of directionality differences to assure that the differences they heard were not the result of extraneous variables. Such as those I described in an earlier post, namely differences in contact integrity, equipment being in different states of warmup, differences in AC line voltages and noise conditions, etc. And note that I have not even mentioned until now the vagaries of aural perception.
As I indicated in my earlier post, it seems to me that eliminating those kinds of possibilities requires, as a minimum, that the fuse contacts be cleaned, and then that the listener makes several comparisons while going back and forth between the two directions several times.
Regards,
-- Al
|
"If you think this is Dumb, then in effect, you think high-end audio and audiophiles are dumb."
No, just wasting this much time talking about fuse directions.
Most of the rest is of more interest. Well, I gotta say with the exception of most of what Geoff likes to talk about in the interests of softening up any desperate suckers out there that might buy any of the crap he has the nerve to sell. |
How about magnets. Magnets enhance the directionality of ac passing thru them much the same as cryo treatment of metals and conductors enhance and unify the direction of their molecules. Results are better sound. Improved dynamics, lower noise. |
It would appear the naysayers are getting ready to concede. Can't say I blame them very much. Next topic suggestion: if fuses are directional, can it possibly be true that all wire is directional? The internal wiring in speakers, the wire in a capacitor, the internal wiring in electronics, speaker cables, interconnects, house wiring. OMG! Agree, disagree? Share, share! |
Tbg, no.
Only when challenged by those who have no standing in the matter as to why they bought that wine, car or chose who to marry.
I have no dog in this fight as to whether or not electrons flow in both directions. Never took that side. It doesn't matter one lick. It's just smoke. If I hear a difference, I hear a difference. That's not to say I can hear one when changing the direction of a fuse as I've never done it and have no inclination to try. Just swapping out a standard fuse for a better one did it for me.
All the best,
Nonoise |
***Time to find some other dumb topic to waste time with***
Dumb? Hardly. This thread is discussing the essence of high-end audio.
This particular thread happens to be about hearing fuses, but it could have just as easily been about ICs or PCs or cable lifters or green magic markers etc ... .
These things are what seperates high-end audio from Normal Audio Enthusiasts and Music Lovers.
If you think this is Dumb, then in effect, you think high-end audio and audiophiles are dumb.
In for a penny, in for a pound. You cannot pick and choose.
If you are, jumping ship, I understand Yorx is having a blow-out sale on certain models. Better hurry.
Cheers |
Like most threads about fringe tweaks like fuses eventually do, this thread has now run its course repeating the same old positions with nothing new of interest.
Time to find some other dumb topic to waste time with..... |
Rodman99999, you went to the trouble to gather all of these examples where we learned that we don't know everything. I have always thought to do that. I used to have a citation of a speech by Harold Lasswell about the findings of the American Soldier project during WWII. He noted many findings, such as that black troops working better with Southern white officiers than with Northern white officiers etc. as findings. And he noted that everyone would have guessed this. Then he says about all of these findings, that they were not true.
I sought an EE degree but was also taking physics courses. They are like oil and water. Finally, I got a physics major, but as you might know a physics major from the '60s is not at all current, but a EE would be. |
Of course it should be pointed out that once the trigger is pulled to get a hold of an aftermarket fuse the fun has just begun. The reason I say this is because there are so many aftermarket fuses available now, not like the old days when there was just Isoclean and HiFi Tuning. The last time I looked there was at least seven high end fuse manufactures, counting Audio Magic Super Fuse (which I happen to own), AMR, Synergistic Research, Furutech, Isoclean, Audio Horizons and Acme Audio. Have I missed any?
What this means is that the advanced audiophile, who has finally made up his mind to spring for a high end fuse, must now figure out exactly WHICH fuse to spend his hard earned cash on. What we need is some unsuspecting reviewer somewhere to stp up to the plate and evaluate all of the fuse offerings so one can make a decision. Fuses are getting to be as bad as cables. Lol |
Rodman,
Nice post and historical quotes!
I respect the study and application of science. I do recognize there are numerous phenomenon and questions that science simply can't explain or answer (yet). At this point in time it seems our ear/brain detection prowess is far beyond what science can currently adequately explain. I tried high end fuses and they unquestionably improved my sound quality, it was that simple. What I can't do is discuss "why" or "how" this is so. I accept what I hear and just enjoy the improvement when it's available.
Charles, |
Nonoise, so no one should buy a wine, car, or take a wife without proving their decision to others. I should note that you have not proven that you are right.
Magnetic waves are induced by any electronic current and electronic current flow is induced by any magnetic wave movement. So any motion in wires will induce magnetic waves and thus current flow. So we are doomed.
Since every piece of audio gear I have ever tested has the hot wire going to the circuit and the neutral returning to the wall outlet, there is always a difference in direction. I don't know of any naysayer who has ever changed where the hot goes to see whether it sounds different. For that matter I doubt that any naysayer has ever tested whether they hear a difference in fuse direction. And finally, I often wonder how naysayers pick the equipment they have. Is it entirely at random; the cheapest; or the prettiest? |
"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." (Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse , 1872) "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon," (Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873) "The super computer is technologically impossible. It would take all of the water that flows over Niagara Falls to cool the heat generated by the number of vacuum tubes required."
(Professor of Electrical Engineering, New York University) "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible!" (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895) "There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power
of the atom." (Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923) "Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances." (Dr. Lee DeForest, Father of Radio & Grandfather of Television) "The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives." (Admiral William Leahy , US Atomic Bomb Project) When the steam locomotive came on the scene; the best(scientific) minds proclaimed, "The human body cannot survive speeds in excess of 35MPH." Until recently; with the understanding of the relatively new science of Fluid Dynamics, the best(scientific) minds involved in Aerodynamics, could not fathom how a bumblebee stays aloft. Often; Science has to catch up with the facts of Nature and/or, "reality". I haven't been in school, since the 60's, but- at Case Institute of Technology; the Prof used to call what we were studying, "Electrical Theory." He made a point of the fact that no one had yet actually observed electrons(how they behave on the quantum level) and that only some things can really be called, "laws."(ie: Ohm, Kirchoff) Maybe that's changed, in recent years, and I missed it? I've not played with my fuses, other than having replaced them with HI-FI Tuning and Synergistics. If others cannot, will not, or do not wish to try to, hear the differences that fuses make; fine for them. I wish I didn't know better(from experience). I wouldn't know what I was missing, and could save a few bucks. |
Kiddman, so you agree with me now that the music is NOT the current and it's NOT the electrons. If the electromagnetic wave - the music - is alternating at 60 Hz I'm pretty sure you would hear it, well, maybe not you specifically. Lol Your next move: "No, it's the voltage that's alternating." |
Yes, On Highway 61, I forgot how leading edge the physics is in audio. Nearly all the principles can be learned in freshman year at any of the best engineering universities, so high tech is audio!
Unlike intelligence, which is not much of a personal choice (though IQ can be raised), ignorance is a choice. Google searches bring up texts and university papers in any of the engineering and physics disciplines that relate to audio. But, folks would would rather mouth off and remain stubbornly wrong instead of learn something from those available texts.
"Don't bother me with facts! I have my OPINIONS" seems to be the mantra of so many audio guys (including many "designers" and reviewers).
In racing we used to call this type "bench racers". They talk a big game and it's fun to then see them on the track making fools of themselves. No such accountability in audio, unfortunately. |
Kiddman, what you're not understanding is that the audiophile world is on the cutting edge of physics. Who needs CERN and their super collider when real advances in the understanding of sub-atomic particle behavior can be advanced with a $30k stereo system and listening to the soundstage dimensions of a Diana Krall CD. Knowing what you know you don't know is more important than not knowing what other people think they know, but you know they don't know. |
Geoff, the magnetic wave has no net flow....it oscillates back and forth, not in just one direction. THAT is the definition of AC. You have never taken a physics course, electrical engineering course, have you? Or, you would know better.
Knowing what you don't know is an important thing. You have failed to recognize that which you don't know. |
Kiddman wrote,
"Geoff, since there is no net flow, no "direction" of electron travel, then it follows there is no difference in the orientation of a fuse. Have someone change it, or not change it, and you have to identify it. You will see you fail as often as you get it right if the sample size is reasonable."
Kiddman, hi, actually that doesn't follow at all. What you wrote is known in the business as a Strawman Argument, a logical fallacy. The reason your statement is illogical is because the music signal is an electromagnetic wave that's not related to the electrons or the direction the electrons are moving. The musical signal, unlike electrons or current, moves in one direction only in an AC circuit. Follow? |
If the onus is on the ones who say they can hear a difference, and they say they can hear a difference, is the onus lifted? Onus implies responsibility on the part of the one being challenged. If they hear it and say so, what onus is there on the part of the challenger to relent when satisfied?
All the best,
Nonoise |
Rok2id, actually it is just the opposite. In science you seek to reject the 'null' hypothesis, which in this case is that direction makes no difference in terms of another variable. Our only problem is that we don't have another variable. If it were loudness, we would be all set. The null hypothesis would be that direction makes no difference. We would hope to reject it, meaning that it does make a difference. I would imagine that you could see a difference on an oscilloscope, but I no longer have one.
All that I can say is that I would imagine there is one as I am confident not only that direction makes a difference as does the brand of fuse. These are not as substantial as power cords and interconnects, but when you are persuing realism in reproducing music everything matters. |
Geoff, since there is no net flow, no "direction" of electron travel, then it follows there is no difference in the orientation of a fuse. Have someone change it, or not change it, and you have to identify it. You will see you fail as often as you get it right if the sample size is reasonable.
I suppose we'll be told that by virtue of being paid attention to the voodoo and magic won't work.
|
I cannot prove a negative. I cannot prove someone cannot hear fuses. You can prove someone can. The onus is on the ones that say they can hear.
Thanks for a very civil discussion.
Cheers |
Rok2id, either a fuse's direction makes a difference or not. What evidence do you present that it doesn't? Is saying that electrical engineering says it cannot top people who say they can hear one? You may think so, but I don't. You may act as though you are right and you may not care what I think. I will act exactly the same way.
Is there any reason to continue? |
*****what do we call a person who will neither listen to reason nor provide any evidence contradicting the claim that fuses are directional.******
Not taking a person at their word when they say, "I can hear a difference" is your idea of not listening to 'reason'??
We can get to the bottom this, THIS DAY. Only take an hour or so.
My evidence is a matter of public record. NO one! NO ONE!! has ever been able to hear amps. They include many electrical devices. So why would anyone, capable of logical thought, think a person could hear a fuse?
Unless of course, a person did not know what a fuse is.
Cheers |
Rok2id, I know you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. |
A good man is aware of his own limitations, but doesn't assign them to everyone else(ie: aural acuity). |
*****What I don't really understand is why the hell you care whether some of us hear clear differences and you don't.***
I can clean that up now. I don't care. I was responding to the post by Kiddman.
I do KNOW THIS:
you can't walk on water
you can't turn lead into gold
you can't flap your arms and fly
you can't levitate
you can't hear any difference based on the position of a fuse
All are equally certain and equally obvious. Saying it, don't make it so. This is not about you, or me, or audio, or systems. It's about the hearing ability of humans.
To answer your question, I don't care. As a member once so succinctly said to me, "it ain't your money". Truer words have never been spoken.
Cheers |
Rok2id, I don't think you mean, "misunderstanding of the basics of electrical theory.* I think you mean the basic understanding that allows designers to do working circuits.
I know there is a good deal of trial and error in design and that even the position of wiring makes a difference.
What I don't really understand is why the hell you care whether some of us hear clear differences and you don't. It makes no difference to me that you hear nothing. |
I can't believe people are still dancing on this pin head. With all the angels, lawyers and economist already there, I thought there wasn't enough room for audiophiles.
All the best,
Nonoise |
*****All the cable makers, accessory makers, fuse makers, etc., who talk about direction of flow are showing their misunderstanding of the basics of electrical theory.*****
I would say that they are showing their conptempt for high-end audiophiles. They are also students of human behavior / phychology and, of course, P.T. Barnum.
They,the makers, know the truth of the matter. Any high school physics student knows the truth of the matter.
In most hobbys, the members would immediately sound the alarm, when any bogus product reared it's head. In Audio, mums the word. I guess they would rather be fleeced than admit to being just mere humans, with all the sensory limitations that come with that.
Cheers |
Kiddman, they're not talking about the direction of AC flow. Hel-loo! Well get to the bottom of all this one day. Lol |
There is no direction of "AC flow". AC is Alternating Current. There is no net electron flow. All the cable makers, accessory makers, fuse makers, etc., who talk about direction of flow are showing their misunderstanding of the basics of electrical theory. |
The Frogman:
My bad.
Actually I upgraded from Krell to Yorx. Do you know how many High-end companies have come and gone since Yorx started production. The things are bullet proof!!
I asked my dealer about service, and he said, if something fails, the sound stays the same, so don't worry about it! That's what I call a Stereo! I'll be jamming during Nuclear Winter.
Us Yorxies' motto is "We don't need no stinkin' Pass labs"
Cheers |
I always hire a dowser for it. When he got the result I place my amp exactly South-North and the fuse that way, too. And because I don't trust him, I will install the fuse North-South. Sounds better, btw. |
I was referring to the Yorx comment. The right fuse could make that Yorx of yours sound like a Krell; but make sure you try it both ways.
Cheers. |
****Well, that explains a lot :-)****
Au Contraire, the results were very good. No sign of age related hearing loss. A slight dip at 3k and 4k.
Now, if I could just hear those darn fuses!!
Cheers |
Well, that explains a lot :-) |
Just so happens that yesterday I had an appointment with an ENT Doctor. His exam included a hearing test. I highly recommend this to all Audiophiles.
It's what's called an eye-opening experience.
Yorx anyone?
Cheers |
We should probably all stop trying to help sort though facts
versus non facts when it comes to high end audio. So much
credibility in this area has already been lost, probably a
sinking ship.
After all, if we all just stick to facts and what is known,
others may know this as well, making audiophiles less
special and more like everyone else out there who also
happens to have an ear for music.
Damned if we do, damned if we don't it seems.
Facts and what is known is relatively boring actually.
Mythology helps keeps peoples interest I suppose, and more
importantly, helps separate them from their cash. |
The Frogman:
I would take you up on your challenge, but the price of you winning, is tooooo high. LULU in it's entirety, I'd rather be forced to hear Anthony Braxton, on endless repeat!
I think a lot of things in audio are subject to what I call a "psychological" version of the Heisenberg Principle.
If you know, or think something is different, or has been changed, you will 'hear' different results. If you don't know or think, you won't.
Most of this, "I can hear a difference" stuff, can be resolved in 10 minutes.
Cheers |
Almarg, it is mainly this statement to which I would take great exception, "especially those that defy technical understanding." I'm sure Einstein's theory face many who saw what he said as defying technical understanding. Were there any possibility of funding support or peer reviewed publication possible some physists would venture to research this question.
With your attitude, sir, you never will. |
Rok, I continue to marvel at how you and I can, in fact, agree :-)
**** The Naive, should not be protected, they should be informed.****
I tend to agree, but informed about all perspectives, not just the one that happens to coincide with our own.
****As long as electronic theory, is discussed in terms of audio equipment, "I can hear a difference" will prevail.****
Absolutely true, and that is because many (not all) of the effects that are discussed are very real and are there to be heard.
BTW, the proposal I made to you at least a year or so ago stands. If you are ever in the NYC area, and want to play :-), come over to my place and bring your favorite cable. Wait, you don't have a favorite; bring any cable. Give me one LP side with it in my system. You will then have the opportunity to swap out (or not) your IC for mine and play ten musical selections from a few LP's of mine that we agree upon. If I can't identify which IC is in the system at least nine out of ten times, I will give you my original Columbia 6 eye "Kind Of Blue" and another of your choice. However, if I am able to, you will be required to listen to Berg's "Lulu" in its entirety; while I listen to Mingus on my son's system. |
*****"protector of the naive,"*****
Saint AL?? :)
My 2 cents:
The Naive, should not be protected, they should be informed.
As long as electronic theory, is discussed in terms of audio equipment, "I can hear a difference" will prevail.
Cheers |
