what can reasonably be expected of a seller?

I have very low expectations with the buying and selling service of Audiogon. I have, in the past, had some transactions. Only a few and all but one went bad. I think the agreement one makes with Audiogon really is one that means nothing.
1. Audiogon really places ALL the responsiblity on the buyer and seller. The site offers tips, guidelines and I think? a dispute process that does not help (see number 1) . Anyone please correct me if I am wrong. I also think the venders (small) manufacturers and dealers also are not held accountable for bad business deals. If you have a serious problem with a deal or product and you describe it in the forum, it is discouraged and the thread will probably be quarantined. Buying on Audiogon is like putting your hand in the cookie jar. You might come out with a great oatmeal raisen cookie or you might get bitten by a black mamba?  And if the deal looks really, really good. It probably is a bad one.

There is nothing wrong with you asking that the item be tested before shipping. The buyer needs to know if it works as it should. In my dealings with people online, if they ask questions like yours, I simply take out my phone, make a short demo video and send it to them. If they refuse to verify that it works, I would move on to the next one. Both parties need to be comfortable in the transaction.

I recently saw an ad for a Theta transport with a batch of LD's."....powers on. Drawer opens and closes. Laser has not been tested". What does that tell us?


And all the ads that say (paraphrased): "Trust me, it works, but no returns due to age". 


There are lots of ads everywhere , where it seems obvious the seller is lying because you can catch it. And there are lots of dishonest sellers, to be sure, that are good at not getting caught because they know how to work the system. 


Then there are sellers who are basically not trying to be dishonest, but have different or lesser ethics. Such as not taking responsibility for their shipper or packaging. 


The only "solution" as I see it, is to be ethical myself as a buyer, and expect the seller to  want to be the same. Then it's easy to know what questions to ask, and if they don't want to step up...well, then there is "as is" prices. 

from my experience, with a few exceptions (i.e. a goodwill store or a widow selling her late husband's gear) the "untested" label is code for the equipment being faulty in some way. any seller who's too busy to test equipment before sale logically should be too busy to list it for sale or to field offers.

There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.  Also is falls in the buyer to do their due diligence.  When I sell. I always make sure the unit works as advertised, period.  I specifically encourage buyers to come personally, listen to the unit, past and take it. That way, no complaints. 

I am not a store, and therefore I really don’t want to be treated like one.  Returns are not something I want to deal with.  Some think that they can buy it just to evaluate the sound and if they don’t like it, return it. Nope!!!

i make absolutely certain it works well first. 

But that’s me. 

I had a buyer of my Mark Levinson ML3 amp (that I regret selling) come by, listen to the amp for about an hour, pay for it, only to tell me later that the person he sold it to told him one channel didn’t work. I didn’t know my buyer was a flipper.  I told him to bring it back and I would connect it, and test it.  If it didn’t work, I told him that was on him because it worked well when he picked it up.  The new buyer could have shorted the output failing the amp.  I don’t know.

The unit failed six months before, was repaired and also upgraded professionally, both of which was listed clearly in the add.  I was using the amp for months after repair also.  I only sold it because I had too much equipment around.

it worked better than new.  

I didnt know my buyer was a flipper and that He sold it to . someone in Singapore.  

The guy actually wanted me to take back the amp that they broke which was working great when he picked it up.

also shipping it to Singapore could have damaged it.  I dint know how he packed and shipped it.

if it was local I could have diagnosed the problem and repaired it. I’m sure they shorted the output and fried some output drivers and maybe some pre drivers of which I had many spares. 

Anyway, I don’t like dealing with flippers for anything.  

When i sell, it works period.  And I will always allow the buyer to come listen personally.  

Life is is too short for non sense, and karma is real. It’s just not worth it to me.

enjoy

Sigh! I need a new phone.  This typing with one finger just doesn’t work well.  I type the word, it reads correctly and when I move on it changes the spelling.  I need to slow down.  Sorry 

I agree with everything dill said. I have had three transactions on this site where I was the buyer. I bought a used McIntosh tuner from a seller who lives here in southern California. I was able to see and hear it before purchase. It was exactly as represented. Then I bought a used McIntosh MR71 tuner from a man in Milwaukee. It was as represented, and was in pristine, museum quality condition, Finally I bought a new pair of Martin Logan Summit X speakers, new in the box, from an authorized dealer,  also in Milwaukee. I think these speakers are the best bargain I have found in 38 years in this hobby. The ML's were selling new a year before for $15,000 or $16,000. I paid $8,968 total, delivered to my house. I don't know if you like the electrostatic sound, but if you do, Martin Logan's are a nice blend of electrostatic sound along with traditional drivers for the woofers. And they came with a full five year warranty!

Not so easy in many cases to rip open a stored piece just for buyer. If fact it can be a royal PITA for seller. Buyer can whine that it’s unfair BUT ....would buyer be willing to post a non-refundable deposit up-front in case buyer walks away from an otherwise reported solid piece. Buyer can’t put their finger on the scale and assume some form of special treatment either .

The tie-breaker in general, is that’s what the member feedback is for .... full stop. It represents a proxy for honesty and accuracy that can now provide reliance on it for buyer. .

if seller does not have a solid track record on AGON , EBay , CANUCKAUDIOMART and other audio forums then its poker shoot at best and caveat emptor

. But a solid feedback score speaks volumes and should provide enough information to buyer and an inherent reliance about the reported condition of the unit for sale..... full stop again.

I recently purchased a pioneer dv-09 to use as a transport, I asked the seller if it would work with cd-r disks (some do, some dont). He literally burned a disk and sent a cell phone video of it playing... I would have understood if he had walked away but he was very accommodating and did not think it was a ridiculous question.  Keep asking... within reason of course

I sell a fair bit here and have been on eBay for over 17 years and have 100% feedback on both sites for a darn good reason!
The last thing I want is to deal with an irate buyer or have to take something back as a return.

So I list item as honestly as possible even if it may put people off at times and provide as many pix as I think are warranted.

I respect all questions and treat them all with the same civility even if at times I may be inwardly thinking "WTH?".

Buyers should feel free to ask away after all it is their hard earned money they are parting with.

Totally agree. If a seller cannot be bothered to provide confirmation that the component is working and and no issues, then my money is better spent with a seller that gives a crap. If I was a seller, I expect no less from a buyer. PERIOD!

akg_ca:  I am in agreement that feedback is essential when considering trusting a seller and I've passed on many items because of poor feedback.  But I very much differ with you on your first point.  You mention the PITA factor for opening a stored item.  Yes, it can be a hassle but, isn't it necessary to know if the item is fully functional?  Can you know this if the item has been in storage for any amount of time?   And what would the nonrefundable deposit be for that you mention?   As I indicated at the beginning of this post, if a seller clearly states the item is "untested" and/or "sold as-is" then the buyer should accept that. 

But if a seller wants hundreds or thousands of my hard-earned dollars, then I unhesitatingly believe opening a box is justified and not at all whining.  That seems common sense.  Of course, since paypal almost always favors the buyer,  I could just make the purchase and, if at all disappointed, send it back on the seller's dime (COD) and let paypal refund my purchase.  But I'm not that kind of jerk and that's the whole point of this post.  And it seems most agree.  I find that reassuring and thank all who responded.
Lyle

I’ve had good luck overall, buying and selling. Feedback is crucial. Communication is crucial. Verifying performance is crucial. 

Tbh when I see that an item has been in storage for a long time I get very nervous as a buyer.
How was it stored? What environment?
A lot of electronics can have adverse effects to long term less than ideal storage conditions.
Same with speakers, surrounds can deteriorate, diaphragm can weaken.

I would ESPECIALLY want a full working guaranteed test from long term storage items.
However most times I just pass on these items to start with for above stated concerns.

Regarding sellers who are listing untested items... I'm not sure about Audiogon, but what I am about to say holds true for every ebay transaction that I have been involved with. I buy and sell a lot of vacuum tubes. It's nice when the seller has already tested them and you know pretty much what to expect when you get them. On the other hand, there are other sellers who ignorantly think that the buyer is assuming the risk when they list their tubes as "Untested" and/or "As Is". This could not be farther from the truth. First of all, how does someone place a price on something when they don't even know if it works? I'll still buy those tubes if the price is right because I know that if they test bad the seller is going to get them back regardless of their return or "No Returns" policy. This holds true for other items as well. Got an untested turntable that you somehow came up with a price for? No problem. I''ll buy it. If it works I keep it. If it doesn't you get it back etc., etc., etc.

@spin4cards.
That will work for the majority of the time as eBay can and will make a seller take an item back no matter how they described it or state no returns.
UNLESS they are savvy enough to know to list it in the for parts or not working category, then you have very little comeback even if in the description they say it is in working condition and turns out not to be.

C'mon now. If they say it's "untested" the odds are it doesn't work. If you're capable of repairing something and can get it for peanuts, fine. Otherwise, don't buy anything "untested".

Yes, if they say flat out that it doesn't work then I generally would not be interested as I have little to no technical know-how. If it says untested, which is the same thing as saying they have no idea if it works or not, then I would assume that it works and perhaps buy it. I don't remember ever seeing an ad on Audiogon that I was interested in saying that the item was untested. I'm sure there are and have been, but nothing I've ever been interested in. Much different on ebay. I see it a hundred times a day. Again, I'm referring mostly to tube sellers there.

Here's a hot tip that I learned the hard way: the ideal shipping choice is for the BUYER to provide a pickup slip. Why, you ask?

In case of damage or loss, ONLY the SHIPPER is responsible to deal with the insurance side. Now, imagine that the seller does not have the time (or interest) in dealing with UPS/DHL/FedX. but finds themselves "OBLIGATED" to do so..

Your expectation is not unrealistic from a buyers perspective, however you were spared another miserable problem when he sold it to another with lower expectations. Unless you can yourself fix something; move on. On your second scenario, be glad again. Sellers like this who claim no system to connect to, may not be lying but, and here is the lesson. Buy from sellers who know, and have means to state CLEARLY. Now, just because someone says "No Returns" does not mean you can not return it if there is a reasonable expectation that it is as described. I say that because you often see ads saying, "Works Great", never tested myself and from there less obvious statements ensue. AG is not immune to it but far better than the Eb... store ads. Buy from people who know, with clear communication, not hard line BS, and good reputations. Always, the item is not truly yours until the delivery is made with out broken parts, otherwise some sellers try and say you bought it the minute you paid and I'm not responsible for shipping issues. They are responsible for them since they paid for the label even if it were with your money. The seller must know immediately and the seller must chase the shipper for insurance. Good luck!

tweak1- 
 I hate to contradict your thoughts but you are 180 degrees on the other side of my belief as both a seller of high dollar mid market equipment and as a buyer. If you provide the pick up slip and there is an issue; then you have the broken, now junk, and have to chase insurance. You in effect have taken the problem of a seller and taken it on yourself. If it is broke, the seller has no power to chase the insurance if you provide the slip, therefore he/she is indemnified as you took away the sellers responsibility. If the seller pays and it arrives broke; its his/her problem and all you get is your money back. 

I'm a little confused too. 

If the buyer takes full responsibility for the shipping, who then is liable and what control is there over what was bought or represented? 

I think they were trying to infer that there experience is that some sellers have "not had the time/inclination" to follow up on an insurance claim.
This is of course nonsense as every seller should make it their job to act expeditiously on such matters if they value their reputation and have any wherewithal!

I think the thought process was that if the buyer provides the shipping and pays the shipping company direct then they have control if there is a problem and make their own insurance claim if there is a subsequent issue.

This is of course also open to abuse as the seller will now have no say in the matter if the buyer "claims" it was damaged in transit and may indeed end up with some old substituted junk shipped back to him if the shipping company goes that route.

Cynical yes, has it happened before, most assuredly.

Still don't see how that helps. 

If I am a buyer, and something arrives broke/not working/not as described, I don't want to deal with anything at all...not the shipper, not the buyer, just money returned or withheld and not paid. 

Don't want a "delay" in that either. I don't see any reason why I should have to wait for a refund while the seller sorts out getting paid back from the shipper. That's unethical. 

I am not saying it does help at all, just giving my thoughts as to what I perceive as some other members thought process!

Personally if any buyer asks me to let them pay for shipping and organise it I politely tell them no.

As a seller I have also seen way too many attempted buyer scams to fall prey to immediate claims of instant money back at the very first mention of an issue and need good solid communication and details before I would proceed.

It works both ways.....

I would expect this as a seller.
1. Know the condition of the item you are selling. Describe that in detail to the seller. That includes pictures, functionality, known defects, history repair, etc. Don’t say I did not have time to test item, look at it or otherwise. If you have too much to sell, too much to do, you are just a money maker not concerned in any way about a buyer.
2. Be somewhat knowledgeable about the item. A CD player has a drawer, DAC, output connections (rca, optical, balanced, etc) laser and so on. If you cannot answer basic questions about item, you probably should not be selling it. Especially if it is a high-end product and you want substantial cash.
3. Be detailed about how you will pack and ship item. What carriers will you offer? How far will you ship? International? Will you offer to meet halfway to avoid shipping? How well will you package item and do you know how? Many turntables and tube amps will be damaged if the seller just throws item into a box of peanuts. Are you just wanting to ship item, regardless of safety and insure item so that when it shows up in a heap of wires your response will be, “don’t worry just collect insurance money”? No thanks!!
4. Do you offer any returns or refunds and what are the conditions upfront? Do you offer that item will be arrive as it was when shipped or you will offer buyer something if not? Will item be shipped in original box? Double boxed? Once I ordered a subwoofer and it arrived damaged. The seller asked to take detailed picures, sent me a return shipping label and stated he would turn in the claim. He stated he paid to have it professionally packed and he would take it up with them. He apologized to me! That is really above board.
5. Be available and communicative. Many, many deals go south because the seller does not think it is appropriate to be communicating with the buyer. If you are too busy to answer emails in a week, a phone call that goes direct to voicemail or just unanswered I don’t think you will make a good seller.
6. State what you think is the buyers responsibilities. They have a role to play in the transaction that is crucial. If you think the buyer should have 3 days to inspect, install, operate and test item before a return, state that upfront.
7.  Above all else, be honest and fair. I cannot, as a buyer, expect a perfect item, perfect shipping and perfect transaction every time. If something goes wrong in the deal be fair, be honest. Try to save the deal if possible by bending a little.

Very good points 2psyop!

If an item is truly untested for whatever possibly genuine reason then it should be priced accordingly, not within a couple of cents of guaranteed top flight item.

Now wait a second, I can't speak for those second rate carriers but if you mail something through the Post Office, either the sender or addressee can initiate the claim.You can designate which should be the payee. I would always advise customers though, insist on a refund from the seller first. The buyer, if pursuing the claim in hope of recompense, may face a denied claim and be left holding the bag. A seller that says you, the buyer, should file the claim, is dismissing his responsibility and leaving the onus on the buyer. Don't fall for that.The last thing you want is both a broken or lost item and the headache of a claim. Have the seller refund and file the claim.

I did not take the time to read the entire thread.  So, if the following is duplicative of one or more previous posts, I apologize.  Unless I am looking for parts, I don't bother with any "ambiguous" listings as a matter of course - no matter how interested I might be in a particular piece of kit.  If something looks like trouble, odds are it is.  Fortunately, the Audiogon feedback and rating system offers pretty good protection against bad transactions (when coupled with a PayPal facilitated payment).  In sum, if an offering smells a little fishy or looks to good to be true, run, don't walk, away.  My $0.02.

i can tell you of several horror stories i have experienced with shipping issues, sellers and packaging issueswith electronic equipment.
1.  unit was in a high end motorhome that had a fire, units have some smoke damage, but functional... ya right... got both units and when opened up they looked like there was a thermonuclear event contained within the case.. probably what caused the motorhome fire!
2.  such poor packaging that one of the inverter units was hanging half out the corner of the carton/box the main unit was shipped in.
3. my favorite...  a $10k inverter system, well packaged,  i witness the fedex driver show up at my house, walk to the back of the truck, slide open the door, climb in and pitch the box out onto the pavement, clearly about 6ft at the apex of trajectory before slamming down on the asphalt, flat on the bottom.... i was horrified!  and of course chewed the driver up so bad that from then on she would come to my door with packages carefully in hand to personally hand them to me...   thanks to the sellers overly careful packaging, the unit was not damaged and worked just fine.
my thinking now, that i am on fixed income and not making as much as i did back then, if i want to buy something of serious value, i am going to buy a plane ticket is need be to personally inspect and test before i buy it, then i will package it for shipping myself!
bob g

I think it's sad that nowadays, one has to be careful not to get screwed over. It would never occur to me to do that to someone else. Anyone I've dealt with has been of the same mind. I guess I've been lucky so far. 

One time I had a CDP for sale and I was (as always) meticulous in it's care and storage. It looked brand new and a couple of times I'd check it out to make sure it worked, and to make sure I really wanted to sell it.

When I got an offer I had almost packed it when it occurred to me to try it out one more time. One channel was inexplicably dead and I could never get it to work. I expect anyone I deal with to do the same for me.
But then, that's me.

All the best,
Nonoise

That's funny! I had similar experiences with Fedex around here some time ago. 

For awhile, (I was working downtown), I began to notice that most Fedex drivers would drop, throw, slam packages for seemingly no reason, while UPS treated them like...packages?


When I used to visit another forum, many had the same experiences, but with different carriers, sometime just the opposite experience. 


The issues don't seem to be carrier related, but regional. Sometimes even down to an individual. 


But, WHY a human in better than average shape would want to drop or toss a box is indeed strange. 

If you have worries why buy ? As for NOS and new stuff or even used gear claimed to be fully operational but seller refuses to answer to your questions and requests and so you think you have doubts about seller´s honesty ? Go elsewhere.

^ Exactly. I have bought a few HQ vintage carts off Audiogon (all from famous Russian fellow Victor Simakov) and a few off eBay. All perfectly functional despite their age (most from 80´s). And for reasonable prices as they all have proved to be in excellent working order. Obviously I have been lucky but it was my decision not anyone else´s. I´m grown up and know what am doing, and I actually like to take changes when it´s possible to get famous vintage carts for a good price. For example my superbly performing TOTL ASTATIC costed under 300 euros. Another ASTATIC claimed to be without stylus but to my delight it actually came with sharp stylus. This superb cart was 100 euros + postage. I won´t hesitate buying again from these sellers from the other side of the world some day.

Seller absolutely needs to include the phrase... "Museum Quality" in the title description.
I kid you not just read that in an ad in eBay for a mark levinson product.

Nice way to alternatively describe "old piece of junk"!

A must have in my next listing!