In an ideal world morally you may be correct. However, businesses are a for profit enterprise. Even increasing customer goodwill is targeted at long term increased profit. Business should be more "morale"? Good luck with that waste of time wishful thinking.
Wharfedale Elysian 4 Incredible build quality and sound, but made in China.
When I walked into the shop my eyes were struck by these gorgeous looking beauties. Then I sat down and took a listen and said to myself they must cost $20000.-25000. When the dealer told me $10000. I was floored. What the hell, how can this be? Then he explained they’re made in China. I thought to myself, well if they’re who cares they look and sound fantastic.
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@kennyc Your point of view is extremely « laissez faire » liberal. Let corporations rule. Monopoly is the goal. Corporations are here to plunder all ressources and exploit people for shareholders. This is the law. it doesn’t have to be that way in a proper democracy. You could impose company size maximums, wealth caps, progressive taxation etc… Prioritize public companies over private companies. Especially when it comes to Education, Utilities, Housing and Healthcare. I am of the opinion that large private companies suck. |
You are very on the point.... Alas! it is impossible to live without making transactions in a way or in another with big corporations... Black rock _Vanguard and the like own everything... Big corporations are not ROOTED in any country, nor america neither in E.U. They are psychopathic players which only want total controls and accept politicians only if they are puppets listening to their lobbying... It is so true that traditional politic disctinctions are tag in a game without content anymore...Democracy is impossible without journalism and truthful news everybody know that... And there is none let to be which are true journalism in official medias ... Transhumanism and corporate scientism is the plot behind the boat racings toward absolute control of humanity by them... It is not a hidden plot it is written as CLEAR road map.... Buying a low cost amplifier in China or in America to be a patriot will not change these facts...But i can understand why someone will do it for principle ... Anyway the communist party directed China till this day ONLY because corporations and behind them Blacrock-Vanguard etc all the rich and powerful people together knowing their own interests had decided that dictatorial communism even if it is a "problem" matter less than making money by delocalization of industries all around the world and they will then benefit with this already well planned better countrol of countries by destroying their economic freedom in the name of commercial global freedom ... Forgetting that a freedom which is not rooted somewhere, in each countries, is only a name or a tag or a watchword in a plot to overcome a meaningful too much free nationalism too strong to be put on chain ... It is already there in the British empire in 1833 when the title and traditional appellation of "natural philosopher" will be labelled for the future "scientist" then no more a general free thinker, but a payed specialized scientist who can be liable and submissive for some larger design by corporations ... All that had been submitted and accepted in an official reunion of the Society for the asdvancement of science, by among others, geologist William Wewhell and the founder of A. I. itself Charles Babbage, for the benefit of the British Empire corporate powers BEHIND the crown .... All that against of the wishes of Goethe who see it happen and who predicted it two years before this reunion in London , in 1831 in his Faust , describing EXACTLY the hubris behind those corruptible and no more free liable "scientists" under the spell of money and power and instructed by Mephisto himself ... The natural philosopher became the "sorcerer apprentice"... Faust from a philosopher of nature became the rich payed adviser of the king and even designed the idea behind paper money backed by debt ( the second part of Faust play ) All that is history not delirium...And now the uncontrolled race toward A.I. at all cost for the benefit of the corporate masters drive us into incoming collective madness ... This is exactly qwhy the chief scientist of google in A. I. Geoffrey Hinton himself, the father of the neural networks maths technology , not a secondary player, recovered his freedom and quit the "scientist slave work" for Google to speak FREELY as a phiosopher of nature and society for the "common good" about the dangers of A. I. ...
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That’s an economics, history and politics lecture I never got at university. Quite right, despite appearances it’s not a question of us and them. It’s no longer even the UK v the US, or the US v China, or even Pepsi v Coke, McDonalds v KFC etc. It’s more of a question of some very big fish swallowing the smaller fish. International borders have little to do with it, and neither do monopoly regulations any more.
Nevertheless, today’s consumer is not compelled to buy cheaper or to pay more and buy local, but if it makes them feel better, more patriotic then they can do so. When I bought my first amplifier, the NAD 3020, I didn’t really have that much choice. It was the only one that I could afford back then. Everything else seemed to cost quite a bit more. It’s quite remarkable that I could today buy amplifier with all the trimmings, Bluetooth 5, remote control etc for LESS money than I paid for that NAD. And that’s without adjusting for inflation!
So it’s actually gratifying that the consumer has never had as much choice as today. Okay, it’s mainly all online nowadays...but we can no more uninvent the internet now than we can uninvent the the silicone chip or the transitor or the valve or digital audio etc. And no amount of nostalgia or living in the past can help either. In today’s world most of us are small fish desperately trying to swim with the irresistible tide. |
I dont complain about the choices, but beware that the Hyperinflation created by the Hubris of some destroyed our choices , and the incoming created war because of total lack of conciousness can kill consumers choices too... I am not a luddite about the computer or A. I. but we must be blind and deaf to not became conscious of the cost we will pay in freedom and in our soul life... Why the choices of the american consumers are more costly and not so well accessible right now , we eat too, and i dont speak about amplifiers here, and why there is a decline of the life span in north america with the more costly health system and the more advanced in the world ? Saying as some that all is perfect for the time being is stay blind.. I am optimist for the next 50 years... Not for now...
Myself being interested only in books and music i never was so happy in all my life...The internet save me... But it does not means that all internet effect and consequences and incoming A. I. will be good... Eliminate first corporate psychopaths and big monopoly on food energy and pharmas and heaven will come on earth... Not before... And those who think that there is positive in these entities forget that the devil deal is plenty of positive gifts, but you pay it with your blood and soul you are put UNDER control ... And i dont say it as bible zealot say it for those who think i am a luddite bible reader...I am not...
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@cd318 Did you regret selling the NAD 3020? It's a very celebrated amp. I wish I could find one in my area. But I got to stop collecting vintage Hi-fi amps... It's cool that if you own a NAD 3020, its value will only increase over time. |
Absolutely I do. It was one the worst decisions I ever made. I took it to one of one of those cash exchange stores and got back a pittance (£20 I think). Stupid, stupid, stupid. It wasn't taking up too much space and owning 2 amps is not particularly excessive.
Eliminate first corporate psychopaths and big monopoly on food energy and pharmas and heaven will come on earth... Not before...
For all of your great insight and knowledge you are still a romantic at heart. Alas, the history of this world clearly suggests something different. It's true that nothing was ever given without a fight first. However to paraphrase General Georg S Patton, we sometimes fought the wrong fight against the wrong enemy. |
Yes i am a romantic but not without mathematical clarity ...I like so much Goethe because he was a romantic silent and musical heart with a speaking brain and a geometrical gaze... i am revolted by the absence of criticism in all official medias about the fact that health policy on earth is in the hand of an oligarch non elected who know nothing about health... Then i dont know about you but i dont see anything well before the demise of these egoistics monsters... And if i spoke more i will be banned from here... Truth does not exist in north america save in the usual convenient way ....
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Then i dont know about you but i dont see anything well before the demise of these egoistics monsters...
I agree. Unfortunately the history of our world is full of such people. I have no problem with Chinese produced goods. All that I can hope for is that they treat workers with the decency they deserve. We all know that many many people all over the whole world still work under the most difficult and inhuman conditions imaginable. I'd like to think that this does not apply to those who work towards producing loudspeakers of the calibre of the Elysians. It's already a daunting thought that I don't know the exact conditions under which this phone I'm typing on was created. Should I even care?
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The communist party is an abomination but they succeeded in giving bread to all China and way more.. And anyway they are till in command because corporate narcissists, de-industrializing our countries, used them to buy cheap workers for all the goods they sell us...Then reinforced their power because they needed them.. They then succeed helping the communist party to keep power... Anyway with one billion peoples thirty years ago you need a miraculous boom to give bread to all.. They did it with corporate occidental investment... Those who appeal to boycott of China are short sighted exactly as the boycott of Russia is uselees and worst counter -productive for us.... Anyway , because of the general propaganda so successful here as in China i will stop writing this post... For now i care only about the psychpath idiot in my country...Not about chinese phone labour or cost... China is more advanced country in Shangai than in quebec and most city of America... Medecine and engineering with 10 times more engineers or doctors grow... Here in my country we destruct family and education and health, and Trudeau borrowed Chinese control method... I must close my mouth here... The life span of people here regress , In US and Canada in the opposite he increase in other nations.., Guess why with the most adanced medecine based drug system in the world ? i spoke too much... 😁
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You are right... I forgot that you are the only ideological self appointed expert here... I will copy your sentence and i will use it when you will rant against Trump or any political delirium in any thread.... M.C. is no more here, it seems i replace him in your heart...
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You haven't changed one bit. Before your comeback, people were praising your evenhanded, grown up and thoughtful commentary and almost elevated you to the level of a saint. Some of us countered saying you were no better informed, polite or non-political than any of us and they took exception to it. I watched this thread to see when they'd chime in to say to you and CD318 to knock it off with the political commentary, the one sided, ill informed commentary, and maybe say something contrary myself, but that would have gotten your cheer leading squad all up in arms (since they are as one sided as you). No, I just posted "there goes the thread", a meaning everyone here understands, and your comeback is where you left off when you stopped posting here a while back. Same old, same old. By all means, go ahead and use my words anytime you wish. All the best, |
Allow me to defend myself. I am not a liberal but am realistic. I avoid bitching about stuff I have no control over - it does not do any good but make myself miserable, nor to I advocate forming bitching parties where more people waste their time. Sure things can be improved, but this takes "action". Pining away on wishful thinking about how things "ought to be" of in your case "be as moral as I am" is a waste of time unless it leads to constructive "action".
Now this just seems like a childish rant. Capitalism does have it's problems, but it's much better than the alternatives. |
First it is you who did not change a bit with your "sour" welcome...I spoke about your "attitude" toward me...not about political ideas.. It is you who for a welcome throw a sarcasm...And your UNJUSTIFIED sarcasm ( directed toward me and my friend ) was written in a thread about chineese product and the ethical reason to buy one or not... I spoke my mind to a friend... I am used to talk amically with cd318 for a long time now... You could not resist to throw a sarcasm for welcoming me ...I answered... But our exhange him and me never need your ideological approval or censorship ...And DID NOT CONCERN YOU if in place of a rational argument you had only a mere sarcasm.. I dont bear grudge with people and i salute anybody here...I did not bothered you since my arrival more than a week ago, did i ? But i dont accept your sarcasm PASSIVELY sorry , and i am free here to speak my mind with any friend ... It is astonishing that you do the same as me giving your opinions with political narrow views and you dont accept if someone else speak his mind especially when larger views are expressed ... You post childlike sarcasm everywhere and everytime and me i dont have the right to discuss with a friend ? Where is the post i throw at your head or my sarcasm about any of your political allusion since my first day here ? The last one of your post i had seen was erased by the moderators, did i throw sarcasm at you because i am not on the same wavelenght ? No , because i know that being in dissent you dont WANT to discuss rationally.. Then i dont answer your posts if not INVITED... I never adressed you... You did... Do the same... You are an hypocrit, you accuse me to do exactly the same thing as you do every time you can, saying your political opinion... I have mine too a bit larger than your own... But me i dont wait hidden till the occasion is there to throw accusation against you... Did i ? As you said rightfully ...
But it was up to you to discuss with us in a friendly manner about your view .. Why not ? Simple, you hate me... It was the same in the past with other character... Me i like to discuss but i hate nobody...
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As your usual want, you single me out for your long standing animus against me and ignore the other insults directed at you earlier for your long winded posts. You were so polite in answering them. How gentlemanly. My post was much less offensive and directed at both you and CD318 for treading on topics that all of us have been trying to avoid for the longest time now. It's been a breath of fresh air and now the air is getting stale. The way you frame your accusations, based on falsehoods that anyone can quickly look for in this thread, boggles the mind. Where did I express my ideology or political leanings in this conversation with you? You've just brought some old baggage with you on your return here, ready to bore us to tears and use it as justification to pick up and continue where you left off. All the best,
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I am polite and factual in general yes ...
Are you saying me that you never expressed your political view in any post since 10 month and never being sarcastic against those who do not think as you think?😊 And of all the posts i exhanged here since 10 days, i only spoke politic in a thread DEDICATED about the political and ethical meaning of buying or not the chinese product and i spoke my mind with a FRIEND ... is it you who decide if i can or not ? Ok i catch , i am for you like M. C. a toxic product we must throw out of audiogon... is it the case ? Sorry i will stay except if too much people think the opposite.. Good night... If you dont like politic about chinese product change and go in another thread...
By the way i never adressed you FIRST since i am here and i would have never adress you again if you had not throw your sarcasm at us cd318 and me ...The "old baggage" is your own hate and incapacity to speak rationally with me...I NEVER ANSwERED YOUR POST HERE SINCE I AM HERE .. YOU DID... You are a specialist of reversing the accusation ... Let me alone or suffer my answers... I dont stay silent when criticized.. I answer...
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I assumed that the "made in china" was a quality and/or a reliability issue (which fits high-end audio interests) vs a "political" one. I too greatly dislike communism for the misery it brings. I do understand that for some countries it may have been better than before. One thing I do not do is to dislike the people who have to live under a communist rule like they all are communisticly patriotic - most are simply trying to make a living the best they can just like everybody else. |
@kennyc The reverse is true for capitalism in the US. Think about the people who have to stretch their insuline and die because a dose is $800 Vs $11 in other countries. Think about the crumbling infrastructure, the police brutality, the monopolies, the housing market, homelessness, gun violence and the Education system. The USA is shaped by lobbies and the American people are suffering immensely because of it. I swear that Europeans are paying premium insurance when the visit the USA because they’re scared about the hospital bills if something goes awry. I am not saying that China is better. I have never been there. But wouldn’t it just be more rational to travel around the world to change your perspective on things? Furthermore, American politics were way more diverse in the early 20th century. There was a Socialist party and a Communist party. It’s very common to see Communist parties in Europe, but they hardly seem to make a dent because they don’t serve the interests of the landlords, financial institutions and corporate overlords. However, these Communist and Socialist parties have an impact in a parliamentary context where elected officials vote on laws. And you bet that the Communist parties will side with the laborers and regular working people (not just landlords, moguls and bankers). Basically, you can thank the communists for 8h shifts, paid leaves, holidays etc… They went on strike for that. |
Yes, he did. However unlike other Robinson reviews he didn't really give much by way of direct head to head comparisons of the Elysian 4 and its rivals the way he usually does. Perhaps, at this level of performance, there's really not much in it?
Anyway, HiFifreaks have actually conducted a couple of interviews with Peter Comeau directly that shed some light on his philosophy and the peculiarities of the AMT tweeter that's used on the Elysian range. But still, it would be nice to hear from someone who's got some first hand experience of living with these not inexpensive loudspeakers. Apart from actually hearing for yourself, there's little to match first hand real world shared experience.
Yes, a lot of suffering and perseverance went into the acquisition of some of the basic working rights that we can now enjoy in the West. However I certainly wouldn't call those strike efforts communist. The emergence of the left in the UK during the late 19th and early 20th century never actually went that far. British people tend to be fairly conservative by nature unlike our French neighbours who have physically let their ruling elites know their feelings on more than one occasion. Quite a few people here raised an eyebrow at the recent riots in France when their government suggested that their retirement age be raised to 64 from 62. Ours is currently 66 or higher depending upon when you were born! Of course we'd like our retirement age lowered but it would seem that there are some in power that would like us to continue working until we die.
You can be quite sure that if your presence here, and not your words, offends someone, then they are not worth responding to. The rest of us might enjoy the sharing of a little information and experience without having a bout of apoplexy upon encountering a few words that trouble our mental equilibrium. Politics can be discussed without drawing party lines, and taking sides, and I find that you are far better at this than I am. Besides, as you implied, how exactly do you talk about Chinese manufactured loudspeakers without also talking about economics and politics? |
Now, that is an outright lie. That it comes from you makes sense.
Again, lies (except for you recognizing your limits). Many are the times when politics has been brought up without taking sides and those with grudges literally pounce on the posts and have them removed. Happens all the time. I always found it strange and sad that those who state such things as fact actually think everyone else sees it their way as well. It comes from living in an information bubble, an alternative universe.
That's been the fallback position of every, single negative post on Chinese made audio goods, used as an excuse to knock China's policies and not how good some of them can be, benefiting audio enthusiasts. All the best, |
Said Nonoise when two friends after a long 10 months of absence where talking together about geopolitics, few posts above...Because he did not like it... He is the political brain of audiogon it seems, judge and party...Instead of politely giving his idea, he put an ACCUSATION`"there goes this thread" Only him can talk geopolitic nobody else...
This person now stir the thread toward the worst, accusing cd318 of "liying" because he express his opinion... ... Cd318 expressed his opinion...He did not lie...Even if you consider his opinion false, it is an opinion not a lie because he express his feeling and opinion ...You are so narrow mind that if someone see and perceive things from his perspective it must be a lie for you ... No it is his opinion thats all... Only hating mind will use the word "lie"... "Lying" is what you just do and do again in this thread : accusing someone else of what you just did FIRST stirring it toward hate with your first words to welcome me...with your insinuation... You are so hateful toward people thinking differently that your your sarcasm is often toxic... Thanks to you then, your own word are now prophetic : " Here goes this thread"... These was your INSINUATION as a welcome to me discussing with my friend, your are TOXIC... I stayed far from your posts since my coming back... Why you did not do the same ? Why ?
M.C. is no more here , i replaced him in your deranged political hating narrow mind... You are so narrow, you even think seriously that it is impossible to think about politic without taking side...Astonishing ...That say a lot about hateful fanatical mind...
Sorry but i like trying to understand the two sides at war or the two sides in the political arena...For example : for sure even if we understand why the second war comes after the first and the impossible imposed huge war debts on Germany by the unjust or discutable Versailles treaty thats opinion of mine and of many people, does not implicate that i consider Hitler to be right in his vengeful direction ... Did you catch ? For sure you will accuse me of lying... Because you had already forgot your hateful one sideness... And you will call liar someone debating your points.. I remember your M.C. attacks ... We owe M.C. apology now guess why ?
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You dont apologize to cd318 for accusing him to be a liar ? Instead two lines to say i am wrong... You loose your toungue when you are put against a wall ? Why trail you me back here when i spoke with a friend then ? I did not trail you here myself... I let you ALONE... By the way your two line DEFLECTIVE post cannot make us forgot that you call cd318 a liar? TWO times...
Remember ?
And you confuse my post to be an argument : your accusation against cd318 are fact...Fact are not arguments.. did you undertand the difference ? I described your behaviour HERE SPEAKING OF CD 318 AND CALLING HIM A LIAR remember ? You owe apology to cd318... No one here accuse other people to be liar because speaking their mind... Your behaviour is the same as 10 months ago... BUT ME I LET YOU ALONE since my coming back.... Did you catch the DIFFERENCE between you and me ?
LET ME ALONE and keep your idiotic stalking sarcastic videos FAR FROM my post ... Go in your hole... I dont want to argue with you AGAIN...i dont like hating obsess people... I like to discuss rationally... And let cd318 alone especially when we talk together...Especially if we talk geo politic... You are not the arbiter or judge of any thread here...
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@cd318 I am currently residing in France and we can officially say that democracy died (It was dead decades ago, but now it's crystal clear) since the President overran the assembly and the will of the people in order to set back the retirement age at 64. To be clear, this retirement setback will only save approxiamtely 10 billion euros. There are 100 more effective ways to save 10 billion euros. But I am going off tangent here... Anyways, I have a hard time seeing conservative and right-wing politics favoring regular workers and unions... It's very much the opposite: salary freeze and high worker flexibility (a.k.a. worse working conditions). I have a very French perspective. You have to fight for your rights and go strike. Because the political class is not on your side.
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