Weak Link in Vinyl Playback

"I do think the Hagerman sounds more transparent as far as detail goes, too, but that may just be placebo."

@owl9113 It's not a placebo. I'm an iFi fan in general but their entry level phono stages are not very good. Flat and dull.

Glad it worked out.

@owl9113 Glad to hear it worked out. That phono should continue to sound better as it breaks in. There is reverse RIAA filters you could use to speed up the process or just spin some records and know it'll sound even better in a month or so.

@owl9113 

The VTF recommended is usually a good place to start , you should experiment with a little lighter and heavier , also the anti-skate is  controversial issue where you might want to try setting it lower that the VTF , look up Audiogon forum posts about it .  

Hi everyone,

@nlitworld I went ahead and bought that digital VTF gauge and the Hagerman Bugle phono stage. I checked my alignment with block and that was level vertically and the needle is hitting where it should with the measurement (I had measured that before like I said). I had my VTF set to 2 on the tonearm, the gauge showed it at 1.93, which is still within recommended spec, but I locked it at 2.00 exactly and adjusted the ring on the tonearm to reflect it. Anti-skate was and is set to 2. I hooked up the Bugle, set load to 47K and even on the second gain setting, I’m pretty much exceeding the volume of my digital path, but it’s fairly close. The higher gains are just uncomfortable, even with the Saga set to 12 o’clock. I do think the Hagerman sounds more transparent as far as detail goes, too, but that may just be placebo. 
 

I just wanted to let everyone know how I made out how that it’s all set up and say that the issue I was experiencing is no more. Thanks so much for your help everybody!

@oldrooney  sometimes the cheap trick works fantastic. And yes, caveat emptor is real in this hobby. Glad to hear it's improved for you. 👍

-Lloyd 

@nlitworld Another testimony for the ‘cheap vertical alignment block’ cited above. It is certainly smaller in real life than it appears on the website (a frequent issues I have with web purchases), but it works well and helped me ‘correct’ what was supposed to be an expert, professional setup from the vendor I purchased the product from. Caveat Emptor, as they say. 

op

It’s not all specs, BUT, if you like the performance of AT’s dual magnet design, as I do/have for a long time:

you have AT microlinear,

yes, but: in a not so great ’engine’ (cartridge guts),

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at-vm95ml

I pointed out earlier, the cartridge is ONLY 23db channel separation

compared to the 540ml version I recommended, with 28db channel separation and tighter 1.00 db channel balance.

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/type/moving-magnet/vm540ml

the 540 imaging will DEFINITELY be superior

In AT’s MM line, you can spend more, to get up to 30db separation, I think the 540 is the best performance/value.

..............................................................................

Eventually I suspect you will try MC moving coil cartridge type.

This is the exchange program they told me about when my AT33PTG/II stylus was worn. Bought new cartridge for half price.

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/styli-accessories/a-t-moving-coil-exchange-program

like the MM 540ml; in AT’s MC lineup, I chose and recommend the AT33PTG/II as the performance/value choice.

separation 30db; channel balance 0.5db. (stiffer boron cantilever helps)

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/type/moving-coil/at33ptg-2

All imaging is phantom. Everything created without a center speaker (they used to have center channels)

Give your L and R speakers tight channel balance to locate instruments/vocalists anywhere more precisely. Of course excellent engineering of the source is needed, but a whole lotta excellence is out there.

owl9113

You brought up the Moon LP110v2 , I say go for it , I had the v1 version and it sounded much better than the onboard phono section of my Carver preamp .

The v2 has the ability to increase the MM gain from 40 to 50db , this will allow you to use your passive mode . You also have a little ability of loading  your cartridge with the capacitance of your phono cables being between 50 and 100pf and your cartridge recommending between 100-200pf  the v2 gives you 0 , 10 and 100pf options , the other options take you out of the recommended loading values .

I would also recommend using a linear power supply . 

@owl9113  I think it’s a gain issue. Don’t run your Schiit preamp in passive mode. You clearly need gain there if your phono preamp level control is at 3 o’clock position.  Try to get it to about 12 o’clock position. 

‘’I’ve used ten cartridges, both MC and MM, on several phono preamps with several line preamps, and integrated amps. It’s a gain balance issue. 
 

Based on even the simple fact of parts quality, the Bugle MC would be a step up. Your Ifi uses all surface mount thin film parts, where the Hagerman uses metal film resistors and thru hole pcb for a much higher quality build. Granted the true $ in parts is not that much more expensive, but an increase in parts cost between the two is a huge improvement. There is something to be said for small time builders who invest in product quality instead of website quality. 🤣 Add to that the ability to easily do some mild tweaking and you'll be a happy camper.

@nlitworld do you feel that the Bugle without the upgraded op amps is still an upgrade to what I’m using? I’m in no hurry to spend my entire budget right now if I don’t have to, haha. I just can’t decide if I want to start getting into tubes, either…

Based on my experience, get rid of the Audio-Technica. Pop for an Ortofon 2M Blue or a Sumiko Oyster "Moonstone" or "Wellfleet" and I imagine your problem will go away. I spent some time with the A-T and was underwhelmed. To me, it sounded listless. If you want rorty response, get an Ortofon 2M Red for $100. If you want smoother but extended response, the Blue and Sumiko Oysters are good bets. (I own both.)

@owl9113 yes, the Moon LP110 V2 or the Schiit Mani would be a good match to your cart, and likely the next one after that. Should be a pretty good cost effective upgrade to "set it and forget it"

I think sound quality on a $600 budget you could do a bit better though. Hagerman Bugle MC would give you similar performance to the Moon but with slightly better adjustments for down the line cartridge upgrades. PLUS with the opamps in there, you could upgrade to something nice like Burson Audio V6 (or V5i if the V6 don’t fit) and still be within the same budget.

https://hagerman-audio-labs.myshopify.com/collections/phono-preamps/products/bugle-mc-phono-preamp

You could also try out the Tube route with a Jolida JD-9 which would be better than a Project Tube Box. The Jolida is to vinyl listening like the hot hatch car is to car culture. Most everyone has one pass through at some point in time, they are cheap and fun, and they are ultra, super upgradeable if you like to tinker (or pay underwoodhifi to do the service).

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649987403-jolida-jd-9-tube-hybrid-phono-preamp/

@will3 i did put that on the table as a consideration. I try hard to not fall into the trap of just doing same brand across the board without research, but the Mani does show up often when looking into specs.

Please try a Schiit Mani 2 for a week or so. If you don’t like the synergy with your (SAGA), just return it. I run one with my TD-125 mkii, using Shure V-15 and M97 cartridges Shure styli, and am VERY happy (for now) with the performance.

TD-125mkii > Mani 2 > Freya+ w NOS tubes > UREI 6500 amp > Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G speakers.

How does a Moon LP110 V2 sound like it would pair with my cartridge to everyone here? From what I’m learning, it seems like a decent match?

owl9113 

The scale will definitely help because even the slightest movement of the tonearm weight can create a large change in VTF . I found that I like my setting to be about 5% over the middle of the range .

I have a Tavish design phono preamp that has cartridge loading both MM and MC on the front using dials for on the fly changing .  This turned out to be most useful since one can instantly hear the differences as you are listening , I discovered that I like what would be the minimal recommended load with the hidden load between the cartridge and the phono preamp added in to the total .

Also I am using a passive preamp or should I say an attenuator and input selector.  

Anyone have any experience with Parks Audio (discontinued Budgie or Puffin)? 

@robbiesd That was actually me that posted it. Thanks for following up. I looked at it yesterday and saw that screw. I used my alignment tool on it's side to check the head shell angle while on the record and it's dead level so I ended up not needing to adjust.

Someone posted your table's arm is w/o height adjustment. I found this at Vinyl Engine trying to understand what TT you have: 

The tonearm definately IS adjustable in height. (RTFM) Their is a screw on the right side in the lift assy. Push down the lift as the screw is a hex that needs to be un-locked prior to adjustment. Then adjust height of arm with screwdriver: clockwise is lower, anti-clock is higher. 

Check your arm/cart set up in every aspect. Then consider a cartridge upgrade IMO.

@nlitworld Thanks for the clarity - immensely helpful. Phone stage it is. 

It wouldn't necessarily create a mismatch in settings, but the output of your phono preamp would go down thus making it quieter and seemingly less power which is what started you down this path to begin with. But cartridge stats and phono stage settings are really finding a good combo and reading up on it will take some time to understand the quirks. If you were to upgrade cart, the settings could and should sound just fine, but your output from your phono stage would go down from 0.88v (3.5mV with 48dB gain) down to 0.5V (0.5mV with 60dB gain). While that is not a large issue most of the time, it may get where your Saga is almost full volume. With gain setting #4, the forced 100 Ohm impedance would be too low and would sound quiet, dark and blah. Not a deal breaker, just something to keep in mind. 

With getting into MC carts (and especially LOMC) you really have to watch your impedance settings as they will wildly effect the sound of your system. Too little resistance and things will sound bright and thin, but too much and you'll be quiet, dark and blah. LoMC do sound better for sure, but only when you can get it right with adjusting settings. When I built my phono stage, I went through 5 different resistor values to find a nice happy medium, so I got some good practice with a soldering iron.

Currently I'd say if you were making ONLY one change, you'd be better off with a phono stage upgrade. Given your setup, I'd suggest another option with multiple gain settings but also independent impedance and capacitance settings as well. Going back to my fat kid brain food analogy, the best steak (cartridge) prepared in a microwave (underperforming phono stage) will still not equal a great meal. Lol. I made that mistake buying my Benz Micro cart while still using that Project Tube Box. My Ortofon 2M Blue into my current phono stage would have been far superior to my Benz Micro into the Project. Point being, you'd set yourself up much better for current system and future upgrades with a better phono stage over a better cart. And if you were going for a better cart suited to your current setup, a Sumiko Wellfleet MM cart would be an easier plug n play than the Hana EL.

@nlitworld If I ran the phono at stage 3, it looks like that’s an match for .5 mV output, no? I could entirely be reading that wrong.

Would it be worth just tacking on the SUT and cables to what I already have if I can really dial it in and there'd be a mismatch with the cart anyway?

“Maintaining both digital and analog systems is quite costly. You have some inexpensive options suggested above, but before spending more on the analog side, consider how such expenditures might improve your digital. I say this because getting analog right can be an unexpectedly expensive endeavor.”

Well said! @vonhelmholtz

I could not keep up with both and end up dissolving my pretty good analog setup. I thought long and hard about this as my next meaningful upgrade in analog would’ve been close to $50K (previous setup was around $25K). Instead, I decided to focus on digital and I can say unequivocally that my current digital system propels no desire to jump back into TT. And this is no offense to anyone who enjoys the ritual of spinning vinyl and can afford to maintain both digital and analog systems.

The Hana EL would be a good upgrade in cart, but your perceived loudness would go down due to cart output vs phono gain and your phono stage would create a mismatch in impedance settings running #4 gain setting. You stated you still have some buffer in volume control so it might work fine as is. The plus side if that isn't quite enough oompf to drive your system properly is you could get a 1:10 step up transformer and another set of rca to get everything dialed by running #2 gain setting. It’d be a bit over your expected budget, but a huge step up in sound quality. An inexpensive SUT would set you back $150, plus another LC-1 rca and it’d be $200 all in. At that point, your vinyl setup would NOT be the weak link in your system.

After ruminating and sleeping on this, I think my move is going to be a cartridge upgrade. I just think the rest of my equipment is at least decent enough to get me to where I’m happy (for now of course) that the cartridge is really the bottleneck. I was looking at the output of the Hela (0.5 mV) which directly matches level 3 on my phono and will get me out of the in between phase I’m in now, and also another 12db of gain from level 2 which is plenty loud already. Hopefully my thinking isn’t too far off base here and I know we kind of started down this road initially. I’m totally open to any other cart suggestions anyone may have, definitely leaning MC.

A tiny cantilever and tip that is so easy to damage. Having to constantly clean older records, But, its worth it.

@owl9113 I have transitioned to a tube phono and tube integrated amp because I liked the sound better, and because I like to fiddle and tinker with gear. I've also heard some very nice SS gear that is more "set it and forget it". One thing I have found with SS gear is leaving it on 24/7 does help it sound better. Both of my Schiit dacs have sounded much better after being on for 3 days or so, and I'd be willing to bet a project phono box would be the same.

The OP could try to find on the used marketplace a SpectroAcoustics preamp. Then get rid of the iFi and Schiit. One could probably be found for around $200 on, say, USAM.

@oldrooney : back in 1977 SpectroAcoustics in Oregon sold a preamp with full capacitive and resistive loadings by switches on the front panel. I had one briefly and stupidly sold it! For MM cartridges this would be very useful!

@oldrooney : that's the first I've ever heard about a particular cartridge being specified for use in an S-shaped arm! Straight or curved all that matters is the proper offset angle at the headshell! Not enough offset angle means the cartridge will not align properly.

@nlitworld are you tube all the way? I see they offer what seems like a SS alternative with all the adjustments available as well.

I had one for years. It was good until I launched myself way down the upgrading rabbit hole. You'll definitely want to replace the stock tubes though so factor that cost in.

@nlitworld what’s the consensus on that Pro Ject tube box and would it make sense to introduce just one stage of tubes in my chain?

Your Ifi is on the economical starter setup side, so it has limited features with badic adjustments. Not bad for getting started, but now you're starting to expect more performance out of your gear. It's a wonderful/terrible downward spiral where you chase increased sound quality. But yes, a small step up in phono stage gets to either be more adjustments and small improvements in sound, or ones that are still stripped down settings but better sound quality. Project phono stages like the Tube Box has some basic effective adjustments including gain settings independant of capacitance or resistance. Most of these phono stages will use dip switches or potentiometers for convenience. Ones that are way down the rabbit hole will use loading plugs for resistance and internal step up transformers for gain.

The PS Audio and Elac phono stages include potentiometers to adjust the impedance loading. I don’t  know of any with a similar capacitive loading scheme although it is certainly possible to design one that way with screws to vary the separation of the capacitive plates. 

Are most if not all phono stages set to hard values for gain and load or are there adjustable ones with a knob or something like that to really dial in?

@nlitworld The no power part should have been obvious, haha - thanks!

@hrabieh The DAC was in the first post, Pro Ject Pre Box S2 Digital. Feeding that is an Intel NUC running Roon ROCK.

I've been reading your thread and throughout you share how your TT sounds vs. your Digital chain, but you never mention what your DAC and digital source is.  For some of us who may have insight into your challenge may benefit in knowing what you're comparing it to.

@owl9113 Don't turn on the turntable, but set the needle down on a record and place the gauge up next to the tonearm. Then visually inspect from the side whether the tonearm is level in relation to platter. Pretty quick and easy.

@vonhelmholtz I say this because getting analog right can be an unexpectedly expensive endeavor.

Well said, I could not agree more!!!!

@nlitworld stupid question maybe, but how can I check if tonearm is level without the record spinning?

@owl9113

That is for cartridge alignment in the horizontal plane and is super helpful. What you also should look at is for the vertical alignment of your cartridge and tonearm. That same gauge could work if tipped on its side looking to see if the tonearm is level with the record using that center line to eye it all up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjt8-iGZcxw

You’ll have to excuse this guy’s monotonal voice, but the info is super helpful. It discusses exactly what I was poorly trying to explain.

@owl9113 Seems to me that you’re getting the most out of your current setup; save an expert cartridge setup, I don’t think you’ve left any stone unturned. If your table has no way of adjusting the vertical tracking angle, or ‘rake,’ there isn’t much more you can do, if you’ve addressed everything else. 

@nlitworld @oldrooney Here's what I've used, I'm assuming to get the same measurements: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079ZBLJ4M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1