Weak Link in Vinyl Playback

@owl9113 Don't turn on the turntable, but set the needle down on a record and place the gauge up next to the tonearm. Then visually inspect from the side whether the tonearm is level in relation to platter. Pretty quick and easy.

On your turntable, do you have a VTA adjustment to adjust the rake angle of your tonearm? If your platter is slightly low and your tonearm is slightly low on the cartridge side, it’ll increase the highs and thin out the low/mid. If you were to raise the platter up, it would increase the low/mid and tame the highs a little. The alternative is finding a thin junk record to boost your effective platter height, and remove it if playing thick 180g albums.

Another trick I’ve found with solid state gear is to leave it on all the time. Things seem to smooth out as they’re left on for several days. Schiit gear especially so. Not sure if you’re already doing this, but it’s worth a try if you haven’t yet.

Now if you’re looking to actually upgrade some gear, look at a tube phono stage and down the line roll some tubes around as you see fit. Something like a Tubes4HiFi PH14 would be an excellent bang for your buck for an affordable tube phono stage ($500 assembled & ready) with a rich, classic sound. I just built a hot-rodded PH16 kit and it’s beyond anything I thought possible.

https://www.tubes4hifi.com/PH14.htm

https://www.tubes4hifi.com/pre11.htm

When I was upgrading my setup two years ago, I bought a turntable (Schiit Sol) and an overkill nice cartridge (Benz Micro Zebra L) but ran it through a budget Project Tube Box S2 phono stage. When I finally upgraded to my PH16 phono stage this year, I realized the error of my ways in upgrading my cartridge before phono stage. It was like trying to cook a nice steak dinner, but only having a microwave to prepare it. Lol. Anything you plan to upgrade, make sure to focus a few moves in advance. Just my $0.01.

-Lloyd

@owl9113

So I guess we aren't going to acknowledge that it could be a super simple turntable setup issue that could be solved with a few quick measurements? Do you know what your stylus tracking force is? Have you measured that with a cheap little digital scale? What kind of platter mat are you running, and how thick is it? Do you normally play thin vintage vinyl records or a bunch of new thick 180g records? Can you check if your tonearm is level when set onto a record or is it slightly tilted one way or the other? I know adjusting the gain settings can give more of a sense of oompf and drive, but I think it's likely your turntable just needs a quick little tweak. It should sound much more full and pleasing than your digital setup without changing any hardware.

Here is a couple cheap essential items for setting up your table. I know some tonearms and cartridges are more susceptible to setup, and your micro line cartridge would certainly play into that. Mine surely does.

Here is a cheap digital scale

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01HRJ9NAY?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

Here is a cheap vertical angle alignment block

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07794JXYZ?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

As for the idea it being power issue, if it was truly the preamp, I would suspect your digital also had the issue. Your cartridge having 3.5mV output definitely likes the gain #2 setting on your phono stage and really that could be part of the underlying problem as well. Even with gain #2 selected on your phono stage (48dB gain), your 3.5mV from the cartridge is boosted to only 0.8V into the Saga, where your ProJect dac has an output of 2V giving it the appearance of much more oompf. To match your cartridge to the same input level of your digital, you'd need about 56dB of gain from your phono stage or just less attenuation on your volume control (i.e. crank it up). It seems what you are perceiving as a sound difference is likely just a level matching between your components.

To test that theory, download a dB meter on your phone and play an album at a decent loudness, and mark where the volume dial is and the average db level. Then play the same song on digital and note where the volume dial is when matching to the same volume level. I'd be willing to bet one is cranked to 3-4o'clock while the other is 11-12o'clock. This is not a deal breaker for musical enjoyment, just a quirk when running vinyl and digital on the same system. My setup is the same way where my phono stage is outputting 0.5V but digital is 2V and you compensate by adjusting the volume knob a bit.

@owl9113

That is for cartridge alignment in the horizontal plane and is super helpful. What you also should look at is for the vertical alignment of your cartridge and tonearm. That same gauge could work if tipped on its side looking to see if the tonearm is level with the record using that center line to eye it all up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjt8-iGZcxw

You’ll have to excuse this guy’s monotonal voice, but the info is super helpful. It discusses exactly what I was poorly trying to explain.

I had one for years. It was good until I launched myself way down the upgrading rabbit hole. You'll definitely want to replace the stock tubes though so factor that cost in.

Your Ifi is on the economical starter setup side, so it has limited features with badic adjustments. Not bad for getting started, but now you're starting to expect more performance out of your gear. It's a wonderful/terrible downward spiral where you chase increased sound quality. But yes, a small step up in phono stage gets to either be more adjustments and small improvements in sound, or ones that are still stripped down settings but better sound quality. Project phono stages like the Tube Box has some basic effective adjustments including gain settings independant of capacitance or resistance. Most of these phono stages will use dip switches or potentiometers for convenience. Ones that are way down the rabbit hole will use loading plugs for resistance and internal step up transformers for gain.

@owl9113 I have transitioned to a tube phono and tube integrated amp because I liked the sound better, and because I like to fiddle and tinker with gear. I've also heard some very nice SS gear that is more "set it and forget it". One thing I have found with SS gear is leaving it on 24/7 does help it sound better. Both of my Schiit dacs have sounded much better after being on for 3 days or so, and I'd be willing to bet a project phono box would be the same.

The Hana EL would be a good upgrade in cart, but your perceived loudness would go down due to cart output vs phono gain and your phono stage would create a mismatch in impedance settings running #4 gain setting. You stated you still have some buffer in volume control so it might work fine as is. The plus side if that isn't quite enough oompf to drive your system properly is you could get a 1:10 step up transformer and another set of rca to get everything dialed by running #2 gain setting. It’d be a bit over your expected budget, but a huge step up in sound quality. An inexpensive SUT would set you back $150, plus another LC-1 rca and it’d be $200 all in. At that point, your vinyl setup would NOT be the weak link in your system.

It wouldn't necessarily create a mismatch in settings, but the output of your phono preamp would go down thus making it quieter and seemingly less power which is what started you down this path to begin with. But cartridge stats and phono stage settings are really finding a good combo and reading up on it will take some time to understand the quirks. If you were to upgrade cart, the settings could and should sound just fine, but your output from your phono stage would go down from 0.88v (3.5mV with 48dB gain) down to 0.5V (0.5mV with 60dB gain). While that is not a large issue most of the time, it may get where your Saga is almost full volume. With gain setting #4, the forced 100 Ohm impedance would be too low and would sound quiet, dark and blah. Not a deal breaker, just something to keep in mind. 

With getting into MC carts (and especially LOMC) you really have to watch your impedance settings as they will wildly effect the sound of your system. Too little resistance and things will sound bright and thin, but too much and you'll be quiet, dark and blah. LoMC do sound better for sure, but only when you can get it right with adjusting settings. When I built my phono stage, I went through 5 different resistor values to find a nice happy medium, so I got some good practice with a soldering iron.

Currently I'd say if you were making ONLY one change, you'd be better off with a phono stage upgrade. Given your setup, I'd suggest another option with multiple gain settings but also independent impedance and capacitance settings as well. Going back to my fat kid brain food analogy, the best steak (cartridge) prepared in a microwave (underperforming phono stage) will still not equal a great meal. Lol. I made that mistake buying my Benz Micro cart while still using that Project Tube Box. My Ortofon 2M Blue into my current phono stage would have been far superior to my Benz Micro into the Project. Point being, you'd set yourself up much better for current system and future upgrades with a better phono stage over a better cart. And if you were going for a better cart suited to your current setup, a Sumiko Wellfleet MM cart would be an easier plug n play than the Hana EL.

@owl9113 yes, the Moon LP110 V2 or the Schiit Mani would be a good match to your cart, and likely the next one after that. Should be a pretty good cost effective upgrade to "set it and forget it"

I think sound quality on a $600 budget you could do a bit better though. Hagerman Bugle MC would give you similar performance to the Moon but with slightly better adjustments for down the line cartridge upgrades. PLUS with the opamps in there, you could upgrade to something nice like Burson Audio V6 (or V5i if the V6 don’t fit) and still be within the same budget.

https://hagerman-audio-labs.myshopify.com/collections/phono-preamps/products/bugle-mc-phono-preamp

You could also try out the Tube route with a Jolida JD-9 which would be better than a Project Tube Box. The Jolida is to vinyl listening like the hot hatch car is to car culture. Most everyone has one pass through at some point in time, they are cheap and fun, and they are ultra, super upgradeable if you like to tinker (or pay underwoodhifi to do the service).

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649987403-jolida-jd-9-tube-hybrid-phono-preamp/

Based on even the simple fact of parts quality, the Bugle MC would be a step up. Your Ifi uses all surface mount thin film parts, where the Hagerman uses metal film resistors and thru hole pcb for a much higher quality build. Granted the true $ in parts is not that much more expensive, but an increase in parts cost between the two is a huge improvement. There is something to be said for small time builders who invest in product quality instead of website quality. 🤣 Add to that the ability to easily do some mild tweaking and you'll be a happy camper.

@oldrooney  sometimes the cheap trick works fantastic. And yes, caveat emptor is real in this hobby. Glad to hear it's improved for you. 👍

-Lloyd 

@owl9113 Glad to hear it worked out. That phono should continue to sound better as it breaks in. There is reverse RIAA filters you could use to speed up the process or just spin some records and know it'll sound even better in a month or so.