Weak Link in Vinyl Playback


Hi Everyone,

I’m looking for some input on a weak link in my system, mostly in regards to my vinyl playback chain in a 12’x11’ room.

I currently have a Technics SL-1700 MK1 with an AT-VM95ML cartridge. The turntable is connected to an iFi Zen Phono. The phono is connected to a Schiit Saga S via 3 ft. Blue Jeans BJC LC-1 cable, and the Saga runs to a single Schiit Vidar by the another set of the same cable. The Vidar is connected to Elac Debut B6.2’s via 10 ft. Belden 50000UE cable (as an aside, my digital path is Pro Ject S2 Pre Box Digital connected by the same 3ft. interconnects to the Saga>Vidar>speakers). I’ve connected a sub previously (a Martin Logan Grotto I that I inherited) to the Saga in the past, but am currently running without it.

My concern is that while the digital path sounds full to me, at least as much as can be expected, the vinyl path sounds a bit thin and weak. I guess I’d describe it as kind of lacking energy. My gut tells me the Saga S having 0 gain in both the passive and buffer mode (I run it in passive mode because it sounds more lifelike to me but I’ve used the buffer in the past as well) is the reason for this, but I’m not positive. I’m ready to upgrade to the Freya S if that’s the solution, but I didn’t want to start throwing money at a problem without really narrowing it down first. The Zen phono is set to MM and gain 1, which should be correct for my cartridge, the interconnects aren’t overly long (the speaker cable being 10’ isn’t too big a deal, I think?), the Vidar should be driving my inefficient speakers with no issue and judging by the digital path, it is. 

I’m hoping someone here can weigh in on what would make the biggest positive impact in my listening and give me the oomph I think I’m missing. For what it’s worth, I plan on doing some room treatment down the road, but that’s not what I’m looking for advice on at the moment.


Thanks!

owl9113

Showing 10 responses by oldrooney

@atmasphere Thanks for posting the link to the Hagermann discussion, good information. 

@elliottbnewcombjr Very helpful and to-the-point. 
@owl9113  Great thread you’ve got going here. I think both responders are offering helpful suggestions. I’ve been trying to solve some of the same issues. For vinyl, I have found the biggest difference is the cartridge itself, although, to backup Elliott’s concern, cartridge setup —the overhang, alignment, ‘azimuth’, the weight of the stylus at point-of-contact, stylus ‘rake’ angle, anti-skate, etc. can be difficult for a beginner to master. I bought a used turntable and new cartridge, in part, to get all that stuff set up correctly, because I was having a heck of a time doing it myself. It turned out my original cartridge was simply worn out. But dropping the needle on the ‘new’ turntable was such a relief: it sounded wonderful to my ears, then and now. 
Like Elliott, I found the best sound from a phono stage integrated into a line level device. It was better than the Elac phono amp I tried, more clarity, lower noise floor, which has been an issue for me on some of the Schiit gear I’ve used. I do have experience with the Freya+. I found it to be quite serviceable, and the tube stage adds 6 dB gain, which can be very helpful when a turntable is the source. I have about given up finding an analog vinyl setup that can match the signal from a decent digital disk player or DAC, but by fiddling with the controls, I manage to ‘get what I need’ from the records on the turntable. The cartridge and phonostage have so much work to do, there is really no fair comparison between the two (digital and analog) in my view. They are different animals and best understood on their own terms, in my opinion. I am sure, with your approach, you will get there. 

@owl9113 Another thing I noticed while I was on the Crutchfield site was that your particular cartridge was specified for S-shaped tonearms ONLY. It has a fancy Shibata shaped stylus that evidently requires the S-shaped tonearm install. If your turntable has a straight-arm, that may be contributing to your issue. 

@owl9113 In answer to your question, I purchased a used McIntosh MC100, a two-piece 50th anniversary edition 2-piece (circa 1992) preamp for which I probably paid too much. It has both a Moving Magnet and Moving Coil input. The MC input features a step-up transformer by Ortophon. But I’m not currently using it with my turntable. Because of electromagnetic interference issues with my new (to me) B&W 801 Series II speakers, I have gone back to the Elac PPA-2 ‘Alchemy’ phono stage which allows the user to ‘dial in’ the impedance loading for each of its two inputs, one of which allows for balanced inputs from the cartridge. But I’m not using any of that because I have a Sumiko ‘Songbird’ cartridge which is characterized as a ‘high output’ Moving Coil design which calls for the standard 47 kOhm impedance loading, and puts out the also standard 2.5 mV. I am taking advantage of the Elac’s balanced outputs, though, in order to install the turntable on a stand in the next room and thus avoid both EM interference and a cluttered room. Please note that the balanced connection usually adds at least 3 dB to an unbalanced line (sometimes 6dB) and adds Common Mode Noise Rejection as well. I made the cables between the Elac and the preamp (I’m using they Freya+) 25 ft long —no problem.

So, that is my solution at the moment. I can get decent volume from the Freya into my McIntosh MC252 power amp while in buffered mode. When I want to ‘crank it up’ on an old favorite, I lift the needle and switch into Tube mode to pick up 6dB of gain (and some tube distortion). 
Regarding your issue at present, it seems to me that you basically have a mismatch between your cartridge and your phono stage. I don’t have any experience with the Ifi unit, but I heed the advice of both atmasphere (who manufactures world-class phono stages, preamps, and especially amplifiers, both tube and solid state, if you didn’t know) and JasonBourne71 who point to high inductance of any Moving Magnet design, not just your AT-VM95SH. I looked up the specs on your cartridge on the Crutchfield site, and the output from your dual magnet design was 3.5 mV (I don’t know what Magister was looking at); so your cartridge is putting out plenty of voltage. The specs also note a capacitance load of 100-200 pF. The Hagermann calculator atmasphere linked to would want that value to be in the 10-20 pF range for optimal loading. Not too many phono stages allow one to set the capacitance loading; sometimes one has to open up the box and actually swap capacitors in and out to make the adjustment, and as atmasphere noted, adjusting gain has no effect on the capacitance or impedance loading issue. 
Finally, I will note that the manufacturer of my turntable, MusicHall (the company’s owner’s name is Hall), ships their units (at least the 5.3 model I have) with some very high quality, directional, RCA cables. I think these cables account for a good portion of the turntable’s quietness compared to my former DJ-style Numark PTT-1 even when outfitted with balanced cables. So, before you drop too much money on a new phono stage, line stage, or power amp (or integrated amp), you might want to check with Blue Jeans about the suitability of your cables for your application. You might also want to check with Ifi to see how well it matches the requirements of your cartridge and if there is any way to change their unit’s capacitive loading, it may be undocumented. And as Elliott advises, in the meantime save your money and consider what a ‘perfect’ solution would look like to you. While I like the flexibility offered by separates; integrated solutions, done well, offer great value for money. At least you’re guaranteed (or reasonably assured) someone who offers a phono input has gone to the trouble of matching its output to the internal line stage! Consider what ‘house sound’ you prefer. I love my McIntosh gear, others disparage it profusely, some like Marantz, others sing the praises of PS Audio or Audio Research, or Atmasphere. To each their own; it’s your system after all. 

@owl9113 In case I misunderstood your question, the ‘devices’ I used to setup my cartridge on the Numark table included the Riverstone Audio Record-Level Turntable Stylus Vertical Tracking Force Gauge (a very handy item), a full-size protractor in the shape of an LP record, and Analogue Production’s test record which called for the use of a Hagermann Inverse RIAA filter, a multimeter, and an oscilloscope. My old Hewlett-Packard analog scope couldn’t deal with the milliVolt level signal being putout by the cartridge and I realized that for much less than the cost of the test equipment I could buy a used turntable already setup with a new cartridge by someone who had invested in the test equipment I lacked; so that is what I did. 

I’ll go along with Herb on this one, you will pick up 12 dB with the Freya’s tube’s gain of 4, and 14dB if you go the Lisst tube replacement’s gain of 5.

Edit: Your cartridge and phono stage appear to be adequately matched. 

@owl9113 I’m just going by the manufacturer’s specifications for your cartridge, AT-VM95ML which is not that much different than the Shibata-tipped model (except it is a lot cheaper). The impedance loading at the phono stage should be 47 kilOhms and the capacitance loading should be between 100 and 200 picoFarads. These are fairly standard values. Your cartridge puts out 3.5 milliVolts, which is higher than the standard 2.5 mV, you should be fine at a gain of ‘1’ (36 dB of gain, although Ifi allows you to move up to a gain of ‘2’ if the system is not producing enough volume. However, as the Ifi manual states, on p. 18 in their FAQ “How do I Know which Cartridge Setting is Right for Me” that you may well not be able to match the volume of CDs or downloads because vinyl recordings are less ‘loud’ since they encompass a greater dynamic range than CDs or downloads [due to the ‘loudness wars of the 80’s, etc.] (contra @nlitworld above, and from my experience, vinyl recordings are quieter, but the needles bounce more).
Regarding the Schiit products, if I had it to do over again, I might choose the Freya S, I still pick up a gain of 4 (12 dB), but I don’t have the heat and distortion from the tubes, not to mention the ability to stack other items on top, like a Schiit DAC or an Ifi phono stage. The difference for me, between a gain of 1 (0 dB) and a gain of 4 (12 dB) was about a 1/4 turn on the dial, maybe a bit more. If you’re maxed out at a gain of 1 on Saga, you should expect to get the same volume at 2 or 3:00 that you’re now getting at 5:00 (considering the volume knob as a clock face. It sounds like that is what you’re looking for.

Edit: The Crutchfield add cited various capacitance loadings, but I could find no reference in the Ifi manual. Again, the capacitance issue, while critical if not correct, should be ‘close enough’ at this point in your audio journey. You can keep it in mind when you decide to upgrade from the Ifi Zen in your system now, but I still am with Herb on this one, your immediate problem in getting satisfactory performance from your system is the lack of gain at the preamp. Scratch where you itch, you’ll feel better for it.

@nlitworld I like the ‘Tonearm VTA & Cartridge Azimuth Alignment Ruler Headshell Alignment Block’ you linked. Prime Day (July 11-12) is coming up, I think I might be adding a tool to my chest. 

@owl9113 Seems to me that you’re getting the most out of your current setup; save an expert cartridge setup, I don’t think you’ve left any stone unturned. If your table has no way of adjusting the vertical tracking angle, or ‘rake,’ there isn’t much more you can do, if you’ve addressed everything else. 

The PS Audio and Elac phono stages include potentiometers to adjust the impedance loading. I don’t  know of any with a similar capacitive loading scheme although it is certainly possible to design one that way with screws to vary the separation of the capacitive plates. 

@nlitworld Another testimony for the ‘cheap vertical alignment block’ cited above. It is certainly smaller in real life than it appears on the website (a frequent issues I have with web purchases), but it works well and helped me ‘correct’ what was supposed to be an expert, professional setup from the vendor I purchased the product from. Caveat Emptor, as they say.