Weak Link in Vinyl Playback

@herbreichert that was surely my initial thought when I started this, but I truly don't know anymore! LOL

@nlitworld are you tube all the way? I see they offer what seems like a SS alternative with all the adjustments available as well.

@boomerbillone I did the same as you, @oldrooney , with a used table and new cart. I bought the alignment protractor and went as in depth with it as I could so I think I have it "fairly" lined up as it should be and it Is definitely a learning process. Which device with integrated phono did you end up going with?

@elliottbnewcombjr @jasonbourne71 The Nagaoka keeps popping up on here and many other sites...

I should probably clarify my initial post. I certainly don't think my current setup sounds "bad" - to my novice ears - as far as highs, mids, lows, etc. I don't find any one area overly lacking, but what I do hear is that since I have to crank the Saga so high to get reasonable volume, it almost sounds like it thins out the louder it gets, like if you turn up the volume way too high on a cheap system and everything kind of distorts and flattens? 

@tablejockey thanks for replying! You feel I'd get more from a cartridge upgrade the a pre-amp upgrade? Any suggestions you can provide?

I understand that the cartridge or tube phono stage can "color" the sound differently so to speak, but will these address the lack of energy when listing to vinyl? From what I've read online about the Schist volume controls, it's normal to have to go past the 3 o'clock position to get reasonable volume, but I can basically max the volume and still get a kind of anemic sound. This isn't so much of an issue with digital sources because I keep the DAC locked at full volume and the Saga isn't doing as much lifting there.

@atmasphere This is all news to me as I'm still learning a lot of this stuff. If I understand correctly, adjusting the load is something that's done on the phono stage, and it looks like the iFi Zen that I'm using has a fixed load at 47K Ohms. Am I referring to the same thing you are?

FYI, the cartridge is only a year old and well-cared for.

@atmasphere so, according to What Hi-Fi my phono does feature cartridge adjustment. Could it be that they're considering the ability to select between different gain levels for different cartridge types as such? Here's the quote from the manual: 

1. corresponds to MM

2. corresponds to MC HIGH

3. corresponds to MC LOW

4. corresponds to MC V-LOW

(>2mV) (≤2mV) (≤0.5mV) (≤0.25mV)

The phono allows you to choose cartridge type and gain level independently, but others online advise against choosing non-cartridge specified gain levels (the 1-4 I quoted are what you can toggle the switch between).

@atmasphere It looks like the loading value is determined by the gain setting on this guy. I'm trying it at 2 now.

So using gain 2, I definitely get a fuller and more muscular sound - hoping it ins't just placebo. If it is actually making a difference, does this point to the weak link being the phono stage in that I basically have to go against manufacturer spec to get this sound, the cartridge not having enough gain to match with the phono manufacturer spec, or the Saga preamp not doing enough of it's job to provide the necessary gain for my setup?

@audioguy85 I wasn’t planning on dumping much more than say ~$600 into it at the moment, about the price of the Freya preamp when I started the thread. I know I can sell off stuff to offset the cost of different equipment, but barring that at the moment, what would you say I could do in the price range to have the most measurable improvement?

Thanks for this great thread, everyone! It’s super informative so far. @mattmiller @jasonbourne71 is right, I am using a phono stage before my pre amp so the level in should be technically where it needs to be.

It sounds like some of you think the issue is the cartridge and others the phono stage. I understand that a better phono stage is going to potentially color or change the sound I’m getting, but in my mind, the issue lies with amplification. Am I right in thinking that a different cartridge will have a bigger impact there than swapping my phono? Not that it’s probably worth much, but multiple publications seem to love that iFi, so surely with the right setup, it can do it’s job. No one is singing the praises of my cartridge, LOL.

@oldrooney my head is spinning from all of this, haha. Thank you so much for the wealth of information. I actually have the microline cartridge, the AT-VM95ML.

Setting the gain level to "2" on my iFi phono, which is how the user "adjusts" the load value on this unit, makes it 47K Ohms (as opposed to gain level "1" - 47K Ohms ((Load: 110pF for MM)). Between that change and @jasonbourne71 suggestion of active mode on the Saga, I'm getting closer to the volume and push I experience with my digital sources. Does this back up the idea of a mismatch between my cartridge and phono? If that's the case, I'm going to have replace one or the other. I guess what I'm trying to narrow down is whether it's just a matter of mismatch or if one of the components is just lackluster.

@oldrooney They’re adequately matched even though I have the phono set to level 2 rather than 1? As for my next question, and I know what is going to happen as. soon as I ask this...are you happy with the Freya + over the Freya S which technically measures better? I’ve never gone down the tube road before...

@nlitworld I’d love for it to be a free or cheap fix! Tracking force is 1.8g-2.2g, standard at 2.0 which is where I’m set and I did dial in the tracking on the turntable before setting that but have not measured with a digital scale. Platter mat is the original that came with the 1700, 3mm thick. Record listening is all over the place as far as vinyl weight. Tonearm is not perfectly level on a record, I don’t know how one would do that on my table because the height on the arm isn’t adjustable.

Like I said, there isn't one specific area I find lacking, i.e. dead bass or no highs, it just sounds a little weak overall, like adequate power isn't reaching the amp so I'm trying to find what ins't producing enough.

@mesch looks like my cartridge is rated at 3.5 mV, so level 1 is correct. I suppose I could always run the preamp active for vinyl, passive for digital. This would still apply to the upgraded preamp I was considering as well.

@atmasphere @jasonbourne71 I actually just turned off the active mode for the first time last week, prior to posting which is why I said I wasn’t using it. I switched it back on for now - thanks for the clarification. That seems to further the inability of the Saga to run gain being the problem.

@oldrooney I have no allegiance to Schiit or anything, but the Freya S does seem to get legitimately good reviews and measures well. If there’s anything else in this price range with similar performance, I’m certainly open to hearing it.

PS I don't think this matters, so much that I forgot when I was describing my setup, but my turntable is sitting on the AT605 feet, so there isn't much if any travel in the platter.

@nlitworld @oldrooney Here's what I've used, I'm assuming to get the same measurements: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079ZBLJ4M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

@nlitworld Thanks for the product links - I actually have an alignment block already that I used. I am going to pick up that scale.

So with the phono level set to 2 and the preamp in active mode, vinyl playback will give me about the same decibel level as digital with the preamp in passive mode.

I thought a few posts back it was determined that I should be "good" with gain level 1 and my cartridge because it’s greater than 2 hah...aye aye aye. It’s markedly better sounding to me - maybe what help most is a phono stage that I can tailor to my cartridge more as far as load and gain. With gain level 2 set currently, I'm only at about 1 o'clock on the Saga, and it feels like it would be uncomfortable maxed out.

@nlitworld stupid question maybe, but how can I check if tonearm is level without the record spinning?

Are most if not all phono stages set to hard values for gain and load or are there adjustable ones with a knob or something like that to really dial in?

@hrabieh The DAC was in the first post, Pro Ject Pre Box S2 Digital. Feeding that is an Intel NUC running Roon ROCK.

@nlitworld The no power part should have been obvious, haha - thanks!

@nlitworld what’s the consensus on that Pro Ject tube box and would it make sense to introduce just one stage of tubes in my chain?

After ruminating and sleeping on this, I think my move is going to be a cartridge upgrade. I just think the rest of my equipment is at least decent enough to get me to where I’m happy (for now of course) that the cartridge is really the bottleneck. I was looking at the output of the Hela (0.5 mV) which directly matches level 3 on my phono and will get me out of the in between phase I’m in now, and also another 12db of gain from level 2 which is plenty loud already. Hopefully my thinking isn’t too far off base here and I know we kind of started down this road initially. I’m totally open to any other cart suggestions anyone may have, definitely leaning MC.

@nlitworld If I ran the phono at stage 3, it looks like that’s an match for .5 mV output, no? I could entirely be reading that wrong.

Would it be worth just tacking on the SUT and cables to what I already have if I can really dial it in and there'd be a mismatch with the cart anyway?

@nlitworld Thanks for the clarity - immensely helpful. Phone stage it is. 

@robbiesd That was actually me that posted it. Thanks for following up. I looked at it yesterday and saw that screw. I used my alignment tool on it's side to check the head shell angle while on the record and it's dead level so I ended up not needing to adjust.

Anyone have any experience with Parks Audio (discontinued Budgie or Puffin)? 

How does a Moon LP110 V2 sound like it would pair with my cartridge to everyone here? From what I’m learning, it seems like a decent match?

@nlitworld do you feel that the Bugle without the upgraded op amps is still an upgrade to what I’m using? I’m in no hurry to spend my entire budget right now if I don’t have to, haha. I just can’t decide if I want to start getting into tubes, either…

@will3 i did put that on the table as a consideration. I try hard to not fall into the trap of just doing same brand across the board without research, but the Mani does show up often when looking into specs.

Hi everyone,

@nlitworld I went ahead and bought that digital VTF gauge and the Hagerman Bugle phono stage. I checked my alignment with block and that was level vertically and the needle is hitting where it should with the measurement (I had measured that before like I said). I had my VTF set to 2 on the tonearm, the gauge showed it at 1.93, which is still within recommended spec, but I locked it at 2.00 exactly and adjusted the ring on the tonearm to reflect it. Anti-skate was and is set to 2. I hooked up the Bugle, set load to 47K and even on the second gain setting, I’m pretty much exceeding the volume of my digital path, but it’s fairly close. The higher gains are just uncomfortable, even with the Saga set to 12 o’clock. I do think the Hagerman sounds more transparent as far as detail goes, too, but that may just be placebo. 
 

I just wanted to let everyone know how I made out how that it’s all set up and say that the issue I was experiencing is no more. Thanks so much for your help everybody!