I prefer to hear it for myself instead of falling back on some manual and pretending it doesn’t exist, afraid to think of, and hear it.
We Need A Separate Forum for Fuses
LOL, I'll bet I gotcha on that Title! ;) BTW, I put this thread under "Tech Talk" category as it involves the system physically, not tangentially.
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along...
Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along...
Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
661 responses Add your response
Keeping it real, means to know and least something of Electronic Engineering, and putting any snake oil beliefs back in the cupboard. http://pilerats.com/assets/Uploads/House-of-Voodoo1-Facebook-2.jpg Cheers George |
This ageing and carbonization is the only reason an old $2 industry fuse should be replaced, because it’s seen too many switch-on surges. And a $100 boutique will be the same after it sees too many switch-on surges also. A slow-blo fuse "ageing" right to left https://peakpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/fuse-8312-640x426.jpg A fast-blo fuse "ageing" left to right https://i.stack.imgur.com/0uqWX.jpg%20 Cheers George |
One can substitute all the audio references you've mentioned with any other topic and it would handily apply. People need to keep an open mind, question authority and actually experiment, which science demands of us. Some like to cling to tenets and what they consider dead documents which results in zealots, fundamentalists, dogmatists and fanatics. I could have saved money if I thought that way but then, my stereo would suck. All the best, Nonoise |
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It's always interesting to see what people think motivates others. There is a fascinating dynamic at work in that; a person chooses their mentor, whom they will or won't trust - and that has enormous sway over the outcome of their rig, and their happiness as an audiophile. Worldview and unspoken priorities/principles dictate whom you do or do not trust. That, in turn dictates the selection of components and methods, what the HiFi looks like in front of you. Finally, that determines much of whether you will enjoy the music. So much of this hobby hinges on trust and disbelief. Especially with analogue. LOL :) |
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douglas_schroederThat’s all we need another disguised "snake oil" thread that was shut down like this one was 5mins ago, just to get fuse talk going for the gullible to question it and purchase >$100 fuses. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/simple-snake-oil-detection Like they say any talk, bad or good (even voodoo) in the right ratios is good for sales in the end. You only need 50% of the gullible to believe the "good" and you’ve generated sales, with a product that could have 500% or more markup. Cheers George |
Okay. As I’ve said elsewhere and here, The HiFi Tuning fuses that I used were the Silver Stars. They were okay but I could never get the highs on my speakers to have as much presence as the rest of the spread until I reversed them, some two years later out of boredom. I was never a believer in directionality until then. Then I had all the highs I used to have with my previous speakers, along with better presence and definition. After awhile, I tried PADIS and though they showed promised, they had that rollercoaster break in period where they got better, and then dulled, and finally after a long break in, settled in on a very mid range emphasis with somewhat recessed highs compared to the HiFi fuses, with a bass that was fulsome but not that well defined. With Brimar fuses, I get everything that seems to mirror what others have said about SR Black and Blue fuses at a fraction of the cost. Detail, extension, clarity, definition, sound staging, presence, musicality, coherence, separation and anything else that can be attributed to great music playback. Add in strength and dynamics as well. Looking back, I’d say that the HiFi fuses (Silver Star at least) favor the leading edge of the note at the expense of everything else. Attack is great and they grab you at first listen but leave you wanting more after hearing something like Brimar fuses. It would be nice if someone could compare SR Black or Blue fuses with Brimar to see how they fare. Brimar are sold only from Asia and seem to be made for asian and European markets as an alternative to what we can get stateside. They are made by Telos (Germany). They go through very similar treatments (cryo and a form of Quantum treatment) and use premium metals (gold plated silver end caps and silver fuse wire). Hope that helps. All the best, Nonoise |
nonoise3,110 posts03-21-2018 8:48amAs I've already said, I've swapped out three different fuses and they all sound better one way than another and when replacing one set of fuses, I put them in the wrong way and it was immediately apparent. Really!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw32fiasUSs Cheers George |
@timlub Thanks for thinking it through and taking the $4 challenge. 👍 Not too dear a price to see for oneself if there is something to all of this. It opens minds as well as doors. I just wish more were willing to try instead of decry. Don't take it personally if you're deluged with demands for double blind testing or that you're delusional or suffer from expectation bias. For some, that $4 could have gotten a subscription to Skeptics Weekly. 😄 All the best, Nonoise |
mapman One indisputable fact for sure is you change a fuse and you also change the connection. No way to get around that one! Everyone knows connections do matter. Right? How do you get around that one in order to be sure its the fuse and not just the connection changing the sound? By careful testing. mapman If you treat a regular fuse with contact enhancing gunk does that make it a fancy fuse? Inquiring minds want to know! Sure, why not? mapman What if the properties of the gunk changes with age (like most of us and not usually for the better) and the connection gets worse over time not better? is there some high end gunk remover for that? What if it doesn’t change? What if electrons get old and cranky? |
So does an 18 gauge cable sound better than a 10 gauge cable? Does any fuse sound as good as no fuse? If no fuse truly sounds better, why can't fuses sound differently? I've never had the heart to purchase any crazy expensive fuses, but I have twice purchased cheap designer fuses on Fleabay. They are called Aucharm..... They were not a different world over stock fuses, but you could hear them. Still don't have the guts to buy mega buck fuses, but I can say that fuses can make some sort of difference, for me not huge, but these fuses were like $4 or so. |
As I've already said, I've swapped out three different fuses and they all sound better one way than another and when replacing one set of fuses, I put them in the wrong way and it was immediately apparent. Once you orient the fuses by placing them so that they read the same as the print on the PCB, or the other way (using the orientation as reference), it isn't due to chance reinsertion. It's the orientation of the fuse. If you're saying that it's due to reinsertion, then why does it consistently sound better one way than the other? Also, tell me how the contacts of the holder change when inserting something circular. All the best, Nonoise |
One indisputable fact for sure is you change a fuse and you also change the connection. No way to get around that one! Everyone knows connections do matter. Right? How do you get around that one in order to be sure its the fuse and not just the connection changing the sound? If you treat a regular fuse with contact enhancing gunk does that make it a fancy fuse? Inquiring minds want to know! What if the properties of the gunk changes with age (like most of us and not usually for the better) and the connection gets worse over time not better? is there some high end gunk remover for that? |
If so, then something else is afoot as I’ve clearly heard a better presentation when the fuse was in the correct orientation with three different brands. The odds of just breaking contact and reinserting a fuse on three different occasions doesn’t hold water as I’ve even put the fuses back in the wrong way only to hear the difference and take them back out and put them in the right way (not three times but once was enough). Maybe Clark’s three laws applies:
4. Any sufficient advance in audio perception is indistinguishable from magic when it can’t be measured. All the best, Nonoise |
I've posted this link on connector tests where it was determined that connectors are the villain. The author would measure and leave and came back and measure again only to get a different result, all the time. Nothing was touched or changed. Bare ends were determined to be the best way to connect a wire. This was in a military application where it was crucial to have consistency in reconnecting equipment which happens to operate in the same range as audio equipment. So can a fuse holder be considered a connector? If so, is it as unreliable in being consistent as other connectors? Could that account for the differences when measured after rotating a fuse in it's holder? If so, it wouldn't account for sounding different when reversed. Just a thought, which I'm sure will be shot down. All the best, Nonoise |
There is no doubt magnetic fields are bad for the sound. That’s why there are low frequency high permeability metal absorbers for large transformers and similar high frequency high permeability metal shields/absorbers for speaker magnets. Fuses themselves can be shielded greatly reducing magnetic field effects on the fuse/sound, but you would undoubtedly find the fuse was still directional so it’s very unlikely magnetism causes directionality in fuses in particular and wire generally. I don’t even have to bring up the self induced magnetic field. All of the wire in the component is directional, not just the fuse. Cable manufacturers control directionality of cables and power cords for a reason. To remove all the guesswork and to improve the sound. Whereas cables are controlled for directionality and are marked with directional arrows, fuses usually must be tried both ways even when they are marked with a symbol or arrow. Perhaps fuse holders should be manufactured better, who knows, in any case rotating the fuse in a fuse holder would produce random results so the fuse holder theory cannot be the overriding one. The sonic results are also quite peculiar and notable for fuse directionality and cannot be attributed to the imperfections of fuse holders. In other words there are recognizable and repeatable distortions in the sound of fuses in the wrong direction, unlike a “weak” connection in a fuse holder. |
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Hi Elizabeth, While others here disagree, IMO the most plausible explanation that has been offered regarding fuse directionality was provided in this thread by Atmasphere (Ralph). As you’ll see it recognizes the legitimacy of the many observations of fuse directionality that have been reported, but at the same time does not mean that a fuse is **inherently** directional. And note that he has performed actual measurements which support his explanation. Some excerpts from his posts in that thread: Atmasphere 5-23-2016While Ralph’s explanation may strike some as being at least somewhat implausible, even though he has performed measurements supporting it, to me and I believe to most others having electronic design backgrounds it is far less implausible than the notion that a fuse would be intrinsically directional. Also, as far as I am aware exactly one member here besides Ralph has reported inserting and re-inserting a fuse with differing rotational orientations and comparing sonics, a member by the name of SGordon1. Like Ralph he found that significant sonic differences resulted, and encouraged others to try this. Regarding your thoughtful hypothesis about magnetic fields, the magnetic field surrounding a fuse would have a magnitude and be in a direction corresponding to the current flowing through the fuse, which I would not expect to differ as a function of which way the fuse is inserted. Aside, that is, from the small effects on magnitude of the phenomenon Ralph has described. Best regards, -- Al |
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The fact that the current travels both ways doesn't negate that something in that current (say, a fuse) doesn't sound better one way over the other. If the fuse is directional (and I've heard it with three different brands), then it would sound better one way over the other. Granted, it wouldn't protect any better and no one is saying that, but it would sound better. You're conflating two different aspects. Or maybe, ignoring one. What's also a stretch is that one is advising removal of fuses when no one advocated it, except I believe, in a speaker. All the best, Nonoise |
The last time I looked audiophiles do not (rpt not) agree on much of anything. Do you seriously think any self respecting skeptic or audiophile would agree with the notion he can’t really hear or that his system is not all that. I mean, come on! There have been cases, not many I’ll grant you, where members have reported not hearing aftermarket fuses. I kinda doubt they will agree with you, that it’s their hearing or their system that’s to blame. Besides, I trust you’re not trying to speak for all audiophiles. |
Dear Mr Chef, I’m afraid we’re having a bit of a communications problem. I’ve explained what I meant already. You want the fuse oriented so the direction of the current or the signal is toward the speakers. And yes, we know all about why fuses are used. Which is ironic since I don’t use fuses myself. Nor do I have places to use fuses even if I wanted to. |
geoffkait - the notion of diretionality means to favour one direction over the other. If the current travels in two directions, there is no favoured direction, therefore directionality becomes irellevant, hence my use of the term 'indirectional'. My question to you was how can a fuse demonstrate directionality i.e. to favour a particular direction when the current travels in both. Switching the fuse direction doesn't answer it as if the fuse was directional, there would always be one direction that would suffer - so you're just swapping the problem around. And I would also go on to say that anyone who suggests that no fuse is best when fuses are put there to protect people from electric shock and potential death needs to think hard about their motivation to make such statements. |
douglas_schroeder OP In all matters of what can be heard in systems we cannot discount the influence of hearing loss, ambient room noise, and the level of equipment. That varies across the audiophile universe, so we should expect a certain amount of divergence of opinion on such things as fuses, even among those who have tried. As for those who haven’t tried, these variables don’t matter. ;) >>>>Let me add (1) experience listening to and evaluating tweaks, (2) having mistakes in the system, (3) time of day, weather, (4) not following instructions and (5) use of CDs for the test that are in reverse Polarity, which would be what, about half of them? There is even (6) the spectre of reverse placebo effect, the dreaded nocebo effect, looming in the distance. 😬 An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - old audiophile saw |
I have to admit being a bit surprised by the mixed effects of the fuses in my Rogue amp as well. All of the fuses used in that component are Synergistic Research Reds. I've had personal experience a number of times over the years with how important clean AC power is for good sound. However, that amp is connected to a Shunyata power conditioner with a Shunyata cable. I didn't necessarily expect the main power fuse to be the one with the most impact sonically. I only chose to replace that first because it involved the cost of one fuse vs two... :) |
