Since I am an Oracle owner let me chime in here.
Compared to my RX-5000 or Sp-10 Mk2 the Oracle gives nothing away in bass performance as far as I can hear. What I can say is that the Oracle is leaner on the lower registers because it might just be more accurate. Reminds me of Quad 63's in the bass area - fast / accurate / realistic / lacking in quantity not quality. No mid bass emphasis here, just clean low end. Reminds me of why the Linn was so popular in the 80's until everyone realized how colored it really was in the mid bass area.
I put a Grandezza arm on the Oracle with a ZYX UNIverse. Now you have a deck and cart that have the reputation of being lean in the bass department. And it can be so if the cart loading is not optimal, but when everything is set up properly, I am almost embarrassed by both the quality of bass as well as the amount.
Oracle is one of the most accurate and musical deck out there - a great buy and you won't see mine up on "Gon for sale; period - and those that know me can testify to how fickle I am!!!!!!!!!!
Steve |
I find Audiogon threads to be informative and entertaining. When I first read the original post, I thought that this thread would be the former. However, it has become the latter. |
I was asked by a poster here to jump in and add my thoughts, being a Raven One owner.
First of all, I never understood why some people give VPI a bad rap. It seems like a well built, well engineered product. I don't have enough experience with VPI's as to even comment about their sonic characteristics.
As most people realize, auditioning just the table part of the equation is rather difficult, but David seems to have some experience hearing his Raven against some other tables in his own system, so I'd like to hear more of his opinion on the matter.
Personally, I went from a tweeked out WTT classic to the Raven One/Phantom in stock form, and got a massive upgrade in sound quality, using the same cart.
Since that point I have tweeked out the Raven a bit, adding a sistrum SP-1 stand, TTWeights clamp, platter, and periphery ring, and just recently, a Halcyonics platform.
I never used to be a believer in suspensions, but having heard what an excellent (though expensive) suspension can do for performance, I now believe in using one.
The Raven in stock form I believe represents an excellent value, and allows much room for growth and improvement through tweeks and add ons.
Maybe I am being naiive, but I feel at the current level of performance, realism, and master tape type sound I am getting with this set up, that I can't imagine many turntable setups being able to significantly "better" the playback I am currently getting with this rig. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. |
Thanks, Sirspeedy for the information. |
Hifigary - I think the Raven One would be a huge improvement over the Aries, and you will enjoy great music for many years to come.
There appear to be four discussion points on this thread: price, engineering, sound and the US dealer.
Price - The Raven One is quite a bit less than the SME 10 as a price point example, and there is no comparison between the two. The sonic qualities of the Raven are simply outstanding. Even the Raven Two is less than the SME 10. And as for the AC-1 - it is much less than the SME20 and a bit over half the price of the SME30. I'm not trying to pick on SME, but am simply using it as a pricing point.
Engineering - the Raven and AC are finely engineered tables - from the bearings to the platter, motors and isolation. There is no doubt that Thomas did his homework from an engineering perspective.
Sound – I have had both musicians and recording engineers comment that the table has the “best timing I have ever heard in a table”, that the “nuance in this table is unbelievable". And finally: "Musical - as close to being in the room with the musicians as you can get". When this comes from both the guys in front and behind the control room glass this says a lot.
Dealer – Jeff Catalano of High Water Sound is a fair, honest and reputable individual beyond reproach. He wants folks to be able to enjoy their system, and will work with them to match components to their specific systems. From my personal dealings with Jeff he has advised me on where it is worth spending money and where it is not – whether those funds be spent with him or with another dealer. He is not a high pressure sales guy but one who is interested in satisfied listeners in the end.
I own an AC-3, and as you can tell from my “sound” comments above I feel it has taken my analog rig to a new level. I am a happy, happy listener and that is the highest praise I can give to the price, engineering, sound, and US dealer of the TW Acustic tables. |
I own both a TW Raven AC-3 and VPI HRX tables.
Both are wonderful sounding tables and each has their positives and negatives.
While I can appreciate Speedy trying to hype up the buy American view, stating that the TW or Transrotor or any other of the multiple German tables as being inedequate is plain silly.
We all should be rejoicing that turntables and analog in general is growing and we have more quality choices we can make than ever before.
Why did I buy my TW raven AC-3. Easy - freedom of choice. It is a well made product that will last forever. It's speed control is exceptional. The main selling point for me is the multiple arms and cartridges you can run at the same time. You can do it easily and it makes analog more fun - period.
I agree with Raul that tonearms with interchangable headshells is a great way to play with multiple cartridges.
BTW, Thomas's new VTA armboard looks like a Godsend for any great tonearm out there that does not have VTA on the fly like the VPI, Graham or Triplaner. This gives you more choice of tonearms.
anyway, support analog and spread the money around all the worthy global choices and we will all enjoy analog for a long time more.
cheers |
Emailists: Could you comment on your additions, the platform, weights etc. There is a recent review on Stereomojo re weights and clamps. For all I know, it is your review. I would recommend a Raven owner having a look at the site. All I have done to my Raven one is add Stillpoint feet. |
Peterayer:
Here's what I noticed:
1) Tonal balance: The VPI table & arm were dark in comparison. My room is not overly lively, but not too damped either, yet most vocals sounded muddy or recessed in the mix. There was very little sense of air etc. Switching to the Raven One/Triplanar all this changed. The top end just sings and is full of detail and life.
2) Weight: The Raven One is considerably lighter than the VPI (mine had the Super Platter which was very heavy) but the sound is much more weightier and full with the Raven. Instruments have more substance than they did before. Even the highs have weight where they were thinner sounding before.
3) More LPs sound good: Only a fraction of my collection sounded good before and I found that I'd keep the ones that did near the turntable and played them more for that reason. Now I go back and find LPs that sounded mediocre and find they sound great. I am enjoying my entire collection!
4) Analog is better than digital: I can now finally say this without fooling myself. Everything sounds organic, detailed and I can crank up the volume without harshness. I use a ModWright Transporter for digital (brings weight and a sense of analog to the sound), but it doesn't compare.
5) VTA on the fly! I never thought I'd appreciate this as much as I do, but it's wonderful to walk up the table and twist a dial and correct overal tonal balance. I do this instinctively, almost subconsiously. Further, all adjustments to setup are much easier.
6) I don't feel the need to use any sort of clamp. Mind you, based on other comments (including Emailists above) I did buy a clamp and copper mat to experiment with. But all in all, playing LPs has never been easier.
I could probably go on... but I need to go eat lunch. :-) |
HifiGary,here is am excerpt from a recent conversation I had with a dear friend.
He is a retired music reviewer,but has considerable contact with some curent equipment reviewers/industry folks.
I am stating this as an answer to your original post ONLY!!
It is something you may find interesting,but is not the gospel,so take it as basic input....
My pal and I were discussing the current audio industry in general,and stated that he has a close relationship with some very well known folks(audio journalists).The subject of Turntables came up,and VPI was included here.
His story was interesting,as he'd mentioned there was a "serious" comparison(I was asked not to be overly specific)between the "latest" VPI Super Scoutmaster and a European six figure table,that had been considerd the Holy Grail at this point.
The comparison was very carefully carried out(from what I was told).These guys know what they are doing!
The VPI came in at almost exactly the same "standard of sound" as the BIG BOY design.Basically they had to really stretch,to figure out which table was "on" at the time.
I was told this was not going to be exposed in any venue,BUT is is a "fact"!
A well designed,not overly costly design outpointing/equalling(to some high brow folks)an extremely expensive/flawlessly set up high end design,that was previously considered unbeatable!
Draw your own conclusions!!
Btw,as to the mention of an Oracle being rather bass shy...I don't believe that to be the case!!
I used to own four tower Huge Infinity speakers.The Oracle literally blew the doors off of my previous listening space.The speakers had big time bass capability,and the Oracle "did" my LP's to the max!
I ALWAYS try to hear "exact" same LP's on different systems,because in the real world NOBODY can do serious A/B'ing anymore.Let's get real!!
It is not a stretch to understand that when some folks move on to a new table,there is usually some other updates/upgrades done as well.Do we "all" really give credit "only" to a new component,after other variables are done to the system too?
If that were the case,I'd have been blown away by a plethora of new componentry in my old rig,after "just" employing a mere 70 dollar PS Audio wall wart product.The wall wart was a huge improvement in bass,but I'd made other changes as well.I could have easily thought it was my table/arm/cartridge/amp upgrade/tubes...you name it.Ya live and learn-:)
Btw,yes,I am no longer actively an audio system owner.So what?
I've gotten "back" to collecting acoustic fretted instruments,and studying Music Theory( a pain in the butt,but it needs to be understood).That was my passion before audio,when my kids were babies.I need to have some physical interaction with music these days.Just my own take and NO MORE than that,regardless of who says what!
Btw,my sound is definitely better than yours-:)I'm kidding.Don't get peeved.
I think I still know a thing or two about decent sound,and good value.
I hope someone saves a few bucks,if considering what "gives" in this hobby.Yer not going to go wrong with a newer VPI,if you get it set up "correctly"!You may have enough left over to take a nice vacation this year.
Still,guys like Stiltskin,and especially Downunder surely have systems to be proud of.What's not to like?
That takes nothing away from expensive stuff,which still happens to be quite good!
Adios |
This has become both informative and entertaining. VPI vs. Raven One....Here's what I noticed... by Madfloyd I used to own four tower Huge Infinity speakers. The Oracle literally blew the doors off of my previous listening place. by Sirspeedy Thanks for those. I've heard Madfloyd's VPI in another system and am very interested in reading about his results with the Raven. And the description of Sirspeedy's doors being blown off their hinges by four speakers is the funniest thing I've read in days. |
Now that I've caught my breath, I guess it was the Oracle turntable that blew the doors off his room. Even funnier. |
"P" ...if the table could not "do bass",the speakers would not have performed as such....
It was meant to be a bit of an "exageration",but you might not have picked up on it(actually you most likely "did") and your goading remark speaks volumes about you,personally,Imo.
Btw,only two of the four towers were dedicated to bass.You probably have not been around long enough to remember "that" speaker.I'm not too surprised by your reaction.You'll learn more as you gain some experience,I guess -:) |
Sirspeedy,
No offense intended. It was all about your use of the word "literally". It conjures a very funny image, sort of like that old speaker ad where the guy (in profile) is sitting in his chair and being "blown away" by his speakers. That's all. I understand what you were trying to say. And yes, I have much to learn. |
If SO,sorry for my defensiveness.
Btw,I did check the test record we used at the time,on the Oracle(a table I no longer own,but "really" respect).The speaker measured down(cleanly)to 16 hz.That was reinforced by my little group of audio enthusiasts at the time.
Btw,I miss "that" speaker more than any audio toy I've ever owned.
But my Braz/Adi Dreadnaught "git" is almost as "bold",and has a lifetime warranty,gets better with age,and is much more highly regarded and valuable once it gets a few years on it!
Kinda like "things audio".No? -:)
Best |
I'm convinced the Oracle will do low end well though it just wasn't there the couple of times I listened to it.
I'll chalk that up to yet another audio dealer that doe's not know his product well nor set up.... |
Since when does a "story" become a "fact"? |
I just went to see the Berlin Staatskapelle do Mahler #8 at Carnegie Hall. This is my reference for what a great turntable should sound like. My RAVEN AC 1 comes close to replicating the performance however no system can do this in a home setting. When I purchased my turntable from HIGHWATER SOUND I compared it to my turntable which had just been updated and also compared to another table around the same price. All tables used GRAHAM PHANTOM and ORPHEUS cartridge. I listened to RAVEN AC1 for over 2 weeks. The RAVEN AC1 in my system did everything better- bass imaging, sound stage and depth etc.At this point my dealer HIGHWATER SOUND got me a new RAVEN AC1. He (Jeff) came over 3 times to double check everthing on the table. I have never had better customer service. I am now going to update to RAVEN AC3, BLACK NIGHT Battery power supply and BLACK NIGHT Feet as soon as they are ready.I must say this turntable really helps me enjoy my large classical record collection. I also have 2 good friends with Great VPI based systems and they have even larger classical record collections and both their systems are WONDERFUL. Both of these friends do agree that the RAVEN AC1 is by far these best turntable that I have ever had in my system.
. I feel live classical music is the ultimate referance. However, a great turntable and large classical record collection are great in a home system as we can not always go to live music. |
Ebm
What did your new AC1 replace and which were the other tables you mention? |
I'm not sure there is any utility to threads like these. While I own a VPI Aries 2, it has seen many upgrades any there have been so many revisions to peripherals, that any comparison becomes virtually impossible. For instance, even if you were to consider the stock Aries, there is the cartridge to consider, the tone arm cable, the base the table is sitting on, whether the table is properly leveled; has the user optimized VTA and VTF; the phono preamp; interconnects; power cords; power conditoner; quality of AC coming into the house/apt; room acoustics; genre of music, preamp; power amplifier; tubes (if not SS). Truth is, it would be hard enough comparing two of the same tables in different settings let alone one table to another. I guess if you compared the two tables, VPI and Raven One in a controlled setting, in the same room, on the same platform, with the same tonearm and cartridge and run through the same electronics and same cabling, playing the same source content, the comparison might hold some validity, but of all the "this vs. that" threads we see on this site, how many have been conducted where the variables have been minimized?
That being said, I am sure both of these tables are wonderful feats of engineering and one can and should be completely content with either one of them. If you add to the foregoing the psychological affect of defending your own sizeable investment, you can see that other than the entertainment factor, there is really little to be gained by these threads. |
TW ACUSTIC/VPI 2 GREAT TURNTABLES WELL MADE GREAT SERVICE BOTH WONDERFUL SOUNDING AS WELL! |
