Dreadhead, It was I who insulted you or more accurately made a joke at your expense, and I've apologized. Moreover, no one questioned your personal experience. I took issue with your quoting the Audio Advisor catalog to support your blanket claim that direct-drive is inherently inferior to belt-drive. Please don't put yourself up on a pedestal for that; the pedestal won't support you for very long.
And oh yes. Politically I am pretty far to the left of the middle in most ways. |
Free trade is indeed free trade. Nobody is evil just because they wish to make a profit.
For many folks that I have talked to the irritation over VPI stems from VPI's continued middle of the road (at best) quality and constant changes to their products, claiming each different, new direction they turn to be the right one.
Folks in audio don't like to think of their passion as one that companies directly try to milk for all the dollars they can. Yet, I think many don't mind a company making a fair profit. I believe the consumers wish to have some trust that the companies supplying gear share the passion that they, the consumers do, and wish the companies would only put forth product that was truly better, not just equivalent product with a different look or technology to get them to spend more money.
There are indeed some companies that handle that consumer trust admirably, and that share the passion of the consumer to go only in a direction that means truly better performance. Of course the companies have to make money, but they temper it by thinking of the consumer and trying to do the best for that consumer.
It is a delicate balance. Those that get angry at VPI seem to feel that VPI mainly has a drive for one thing: more money. More changes, not for better performance, but just to keep the money spinning.
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I used to think the term "magnetic drive" is a marketing ploy to steer away from the bad rep direct drive garnered. But magnetic drive is indeed a better description, especially for people with negative ideas about the DD genre. Terms like belt-drive and idler-drive are more useful because they describe the interfaces that drive the platter. So if you must, think of the interface in a direct drive is magnetic force that makes the platter spin. So it is "magnetic drive." And this magnetic force is turning the platter 33rpm, which is only half hertz! In a belt drive or idler table, the motor, often times, running at 1800rpm, 30Hz, and is in the audible range, and necessitates motor isolation. DD or magnetic drive does not have that problem. Is it better than belt drive or idler drive? No, but it's a design option up to the engineer. It's really about execution. I believe there are many belt drive turntables cost more than $30k that don't cause such a stir.
I just want to wait for more information about the VPI Direct Drive so I can learn more about its design and implementation. I can't afford one but I sure like to learn more. That's all.
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Dear Deadhead, it was you that brought politics to this forum and now you are going to diagnose my psyche after reading a few posts?
I am offering my experience and support to anyone interested in VPI Products. I have purchased several turntables from VPI and been very happy. I felt I got the best value for my dollar, for what I was looking for. I never had a problem getting top dollar reselling any VPI products.
I never meant to "bully' you or make you uncomfortable in any way, only to point out the obvious flaws in your argument. |
I've owned many turntables over the years and VPI has always been my favorite. Maybe because I'm from Jersey I'm prejudice. Of course I started with the HW-19jr, moved up to the Scout which I loved then took the plunge to the Scoutmaster. I didn't feel the difference in sound was worth the difference in price and sold it for a TNTjr with a 12" arm and a Dynavector VPI cartridge. This is what I had been searching for. The bass was incredible and I was content. Rough times had forced me to sell the TNT and I've been searching for that sound every since. I'm back on my feet and just committed to purchase a Classic 1. The hype has peaked my interest and hope to find that bottom end I have been missing.
I realize my technical skills may be limited but my ears don't lie. I was a soundman for a gigging band back in the day and spent some time in the studio as well so I have an idea of what I'm listening for. I too apologize for my defensive tone. I'm sure you guys are stand up and deserve the mutual respect we all do.
I love records and still have some my original mono recordings from the sixties. I am inspired by vinyls resurrection but the recent advances in technology and the high costs have left me no option but to reexamine my priorities.
I support this hobby, and I also support anyone who tastes differ from mine. |
A reasonable expectation for a 30k buck-ish turntable is that it kicks butt sonically and be a polished design significantly more robust, well built and problem-free etc than lesser priced 'tables. Anything less than Ferrari performance coupled with "Rolls Royce-like" construction with rigorous quality control backed by customer support and a service department closer to Nordstroms than to Goodwill's approach does not make the cut.
Some responders to this thread mentioned performance and quality issues with VPI products of which I've also experienced. I've received new products that were poorly built. I've experienced ineptitude & indifference without urgency to rectify their mistakes. Instead of having systems in place for QC, repairs, & support they seem to function on the wing-it principle.
Ive had 2 similar issues separated by a bunch of years. Such as a new product that was defective from the start. VPIs initial attempt to fix this was to send replacement parts that did not function correctly. I waited many weeks to receive replacements to those replacement parts. Those too did not function correctly. Then they said to return the defective product. Finally weeks after receipt VPI stated they'd send a NEW product. But they sent a USED one.
During the entire process, which took months, I was without a working product. The delay was exacerbated by the left hand being unaware of what the right hand was doing, for instance a service person declared the repair completed without knowing the extent of the problems that required repair. I received an apology which was nice but some of the issues they apologized for were different from ones I had.
Of course anything is possible. Still it seems remote that VPI can create a turntable that meets expectations of 30k buck-ish ones as so many changes are required including fundamental aspects of how this company operates. |
Dreadhead, I'm curious. You say "I love records and still have some my original mono recordings from the sixties. I am inspired by vinyls resurrection but the recent advances in technology and the high costs have left me no option but to reexamine my priorities."
Is this directed mostly toward the price of the equipment, the records, or both? |
Tubes, Your first paragraph describes my experience with SME products. I can't speak about VPI as I have no experience with the brand except for the VPI 16.5 RCM I used to own. I do think judgement regarding the performance and build quality of this new DD table should be withheld until there is some actual experience with it. |
Many will be afraid to be speak out as you did, Tubes108, for fear of the loyalists deriding you. But I know of several experiences like yours. Typically these folks are not forum folks (forums represent a small minority just like talk radio does) and they just quietly move on to a different company. |
Kiddman,
My comment was directed towards equipment but I do miss the 2 for $5.00 deals so readily available in my youth. My first albums, Sgt. Pepper and Goodbye Cream, 5 bucks. Now I pay up to $30 for a new album but that's for another thread. |
Who cares!?! Harry is the manufacturer taking the risk. If it's good, it will sell at $30K. If not, then it won't. Buyers will judge. |
Same problem their quality control is piss poor. I had a table where the acrylic piece that covered the motor was actually scraping on the platter. I had to cut the plastic much smaller to prevent this. |
Well, $30k is not chump change anyway you slice it. Will this beat a $1k Technics SL-1200 with the same cartridge? Probably, but I'm willing to bet not worth the $29K difference! |
Dave, There is no promise of a linear relationship between cost and performance, anywhere in audio or for that matter, anywhere. Even if there were, by what criteria could anyone ever say that one thing is 30X better than another? However, I do think the VPI turntable should be expected to thrash soundly the performance of an SL1200. |
Well, I didn't say 30 times better, I said is it worth the extra $29k...
It probably will, but I can't see how it would be worth the asking price per se.
Anyway, this probably will be the most watched and criticized audio component in a long time. That's my prediction...we'll see what happens of course. |
I figured it out. Free shipping on orders over $99. |
at least you get that much... |
Even VPI says that their direct drive is only a bit better than their Classic 3. They make the DD for those that need that extra bit. |
What's the objection, VPI going beyond the means of their customer base? Surely there are much more expensive tables. Look at Basis and Clearaudio TOTL, $170K. What about Teres and TTW? Seems to me this VPI will go head to head against the CA Master Innovation Wood w/Universal arm - $30K.
The Brinkman mentioned by Agiaccio looks like a great table, but who can compare them? The VPI will survive or not on its merits. I don't think HW needs to sell lots of them. He's selling Travelers hand over fist and quite a few Classics are already out there. Offering super high end tables is good even if you can't afford it. The technology filters down (to some extent) to less expensive tables.
Regards, |
For me, there would be two DD competitors with the VPI DD, Steve Dobbins' The Beat Kodo (similar price) and a refurbished SP10 Mk3 (for much less money but much much more rare to find). The dark horse would be the Brinkmann. |
Lew, I was thinking in terms of market share. I believe the CA is magnetic drive, but I don't know much about it.
On another note, I've been talking with Dlaloum about loading the 980/7500. Best results are probably somewhere between 1 to 10K. Judging from his graphs I'd say 2 to 5K.
I remember you mentioned it on the other thread.
https://sites.google.com/site/zevaudio/turt/cartridge-comparison-list/pickering-xlz-7500-s
Regards, |
Hi Fleib,
On the other thread, I mentioned that I was using a 1000R load on the 980LZS and that I found 100R to be very unsatisfactory, I think because the sound was rather rolled off and muddy. Others took issue with me, saying that 100R worked fine with their 980LZSs. And that was that. I am sure it would be fun and revealing to experiment with other values above 1000R.
What is a "CA"? Clearaudio? To me, the term "magnetic drive" is typically just doublespeak for direct-drive, a term coined by some manufacturers (Clearaudio, maybe, and some others) to indicate that the product did not use belt drive but should not be tarred with anyone's prior bias against direct drive. Exceptions are products from EAR and Transrotor that have oddball drive systems using magnetics AND a belt. |
Lew, I don't really know but the Clearaudio has a Delrin platter with a ceramic magnet bearing. It has a stainless steel subplatter which I think is driven by a DD DC motor. It also has an optical speed controller and will do the dishes after supper, so the WAF is high.
I got the impression that the Brinkman also uses a magnetic drive where the motor isn't directly connected to the platter. I've never even seen these tables so I don't really know what I'm talking about. Going by the sales blurb, they sound pretty cool.
When you were talking about the 980LZS I was loading at 270 ohms. Maybe Raul didn't have loading options on his MC stage at the time and maybe that's why he thinks the HO is better. Mine has very little use so I'm reluctant to be definitive. I'll try it again and see what 2K sounds like.
Regards, |
Fleib: "I got the impression that the Brinkman also uses a magnetic drive where the motor isn't directly connected to the platter." The Brinkmann Bardo and Oasis are both direct drive turntables. They are called by their marketing department as "magnetic drive" but since the motor and platter share the same bearing, the system is direct drive. The platter is a part of the motor where the rotor magnet is attached to the underbelly of the platter and the stator coils (coreless) are below the platter and they complete a coreless motor system that makes the turntable, well, turn. The fear of a motor attaching to the platter would create wanted vibration is a misguided concept about the direct drive genre when that motor spins at 33rpm, about half hertz! PS, The Clearaudio Statement, EAR Diskmaster, and Transrotor TMD and FMD systems are entirely different. They are NOT direct drive. _______ |
New information on the motor of the new VPI direct drive turntable coming from Mark Doehmann of Continuum in Michael Fremer's Analog Planet website because the Caliburns uses a motor from the same manufacturer. Very interesting. Here's what he had to say: Mark Doehmann: "From publicly available information I see the VPI also uses a Thingap TG2310 motor coil which is an off the shelf motor system sans bearing. I was impressed by the low cost method used by VPI engineers to drive the coil effectively as a direct drive system. I'm very familiar with the motor and its true zero cogging performance. In a belt drive system it certainly pays off and the benefits would be translated to a direct drive." There's more in the comment about the 3D arm too, so look it up. Also look up on ThinGap motors. _______ |
Fleib, I was going to quote the very same sentence of yours that is quoted already above by Hiho. To wit: "I got the impression that the Brinkman also uses a magnetic drive where the motor isn't directly connected to the platter."
In addition to what Hiho says, I would only note that in any direct-drive turntable, the motor is not "directly connected" to the platter, IMO. It is more correct to say that the platter is part of the motor. Thus there is nothing touching the platter except the magnetic forces that drive it as part of the motor, the rotor part of a classical motor. The semantics are everything in this case, I think, because those who had poisoned the public mind about DD had repeated over and over for 20 years that there must be a "noise" problem, because the motor is "directly connected" to the platter. Not so. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am pretty sure you know this, but others might not. DD turntables do have some issues unique to the DD technology, but noise of that sort is not one of them. |
Lewm: "The semantics are everything in this case, I think, because those who had poisoned the public mind about DD had repeated over and over for 20 years that there must be a "noise" problem, because the motor is "directly connected" to the platter. Not so." Those poisonous people include, regrettably, some rather intelligent individuals such as Art Dudley, Simon Yorke, various Linn worshipers, et al. As Lew said that the idea of attaching a platter to the motor directly is evil is repeated ad nauseam by notable people is rather shameful. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Back to VPI, I really think they made a marketing misstep on their direct drive model by associating it with the Classic series because since the price discrepancy is so huge that people think it's just a retrofit Classic with DD motor, hence a ripoff. What they should have done is to rename it independently so people right away know it's a flagship product like, for example, the HRX. Back in the days when the HW-19 was ubiquitous (competing with SOTA Sapphire or Linn LP12), they came out with the TNT and nobody seemed to complain at the time. Now, they are left with the chore of explaining the cost of the DD system ad nauseam to those potential Classic upgraders and the cynics. Imagine Toyota comes out with a car costing more than a Lexus model. Oy! _______ |
It is tough for VPI. I think that if they come out with a brand new DD table that is not based on the Classic, the added cost of design, retooling etc will add up. If you go by cost of parts x 5, the new DD probably would cost much much more than $30,000. Basing it on Classic platform would keep the cost down significantly (not that $30,000 is cheap), I would think. Personally, I think I would prefer DD in Classic platform and stick it on Minus-K for addition $3000 rather than having HW comes up with an entirely new platform which may or may not be as effective as Minus-K and will cost a lot more. |
Suteetat, I agree with your assessment on the production side of the turntable. But I was referring to the marketing side of it by suggesting NOT naming it Classic. Instead, just call it "Direct" would have been simpler and more, well, direct. Calling it "VPI Classic Direct" inevitably would lead people to draw comparison to Classic series of tables, which none surpass $10k and then out of nowhere you introduce a $30K table! I just don't think it's wise marketing.
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@ Suteetat
VPI uses NO tooling. Every thing is manufactured outside of VPI. All the VPI factory does is assembly of sourced parts!
They should not have made the DD turntable look like the Classic series. That was a BIG mistake!
They should sell direct to the customer - no middle man taking 30% of the sale price!
No speed adjustment? WTF!
The DD is NO better than the TNT!
It's all about profit not performance.
The DD will bomb. |
Don,
Could you define what you mean by "bomb"? They may expect to sell very few units. How many would constitute success in your mind? |
Hiho, I understand your point. However I feel that unless VPI changes the look (which means the whole platform), calling it VPI Direct Drive, the sceptics will still not be satisfied and said that it looks like a Classic, a Classic in disguise etc etc. Either way, VPI can't win so might as well being up front. Those that are satisfied will be satisfied either way, those that are not, omitting or not omitting Classic moniker is unlikely to make a difference, I would think.
I wonder, since VPI make this new built in mini automatic SDS-like controller into their new Travellers table, does the DD has something similar built in so there is no need for speed controller? |
The Classic line looks butt ugly to me. IMO
Why model a 30K turntable after that?
Peter, if VPI expects to only sell a few, why bother making the DD at all? |
Don, you could ask the same question to other companies like Magico with their Q7 and Ultimate or Clearaudio with their Statement turntable. They do it because it is possible, it makes a statement, it helps with marketing, it helps them learn new ideas and develop future product, and because there are a few enthusiasts who want them and can afford them. |
I am curious how many Clearaudio Statements are sold? Even the less expensive but still in the $30,000 + and up turntable, Wave Kinetic NVS, TW Black Knight, Basis Work of Art, Techdas etc etc What is successful sale at this price point, 10, 50, 100, 300, 1000?
I doubt there is one turntable that is universally praise for its look at any price point. Personally I find Clearaudio Statement, Techdas and Continuum among the uglier tables but some people really like their looks. To each his/her own. I rather like the understated look of Classic 3 but have not seen the DD in person yet. Some tables like TW Black Knight looks rather blah in picture but rather stunning looking in person. DD in rosewood is a looker at least in picture as well! |
PS, regarding retooling, even if VPI outsource all the parts, if VPI comes up with a new platform, someone somewhere will most likely have to do some retooling and the cost will be passed along to VPI in the end. I doubt VPI uses only off the shelf parts in their turntables. |
For $30,000.00 I was surprised to see that VPI used medium density fibre board for their choice of material for the plinth including use of MDF for the single arm board. ,,,,,$30,000.00,,,,really ?
S.M.E., Kodo Beat, just to name a couple manufacture tables near this price range, none of them use MDF or even HDF as their choice of material for plinths and arm boards because they know better.
But would it be great for their profit margin per unit if they could using material that is significantly less in cost however proven over and over to be vastly inferior for use for this application. |
Years after these "statement" products that are actually sold in any quantity, (most are not), they end up collecting dust in some millionaires basement!
High end audio history is littered with past "statements" that did not stand the test of time! |
I'd rather have The Beat TT by Steve Dobbins for 30K. He will even come out and install it for you. |
Sarcher30, as far as I'm concerned anyone purchasing a 'table costing upper four figures or more shouldn't have to ask for that, even across the country, because I'm old school and consider anything less a deal breaker. Nice to know Steve does that. |
From what I have heard the Classic Direct will not be the only VPI to use the direct drive motor. |
I am curious how many Clearaudio Statements are sold? Even the less expensive but still in the $30,000 + and up turntable, Wave Kinetic NVS, TW Black Knight, Basis Work of Art, Techdas etc etc What is successful sale at this price point, 10, 50, 100, 300, 1000? You would be surprised, but there are at least 5 ClearAudio Statements that I know of in Hong Kong alone! |
Hiho, Thanks for the reminder, I guess. I had forgotten that Art Dudley, of all people (because I generally respect him and believe him to be a good writer), is one of those who has perpetuated the "big lie" about DD turntables. You would think he'd know better. Meantime, he is in love with his TD124, which requires BOTH a belt AND an idler to drive its platter, the worst of all possible worlds.
I agree with the many who have said that for $30K, there are other tt's I would choose over the VPI Classic, most especially any one of the Steve Dobbins "The Beat" iterations. In fact, I'd rather have my SP10 Mk3. But the marketplace will ultimately determine whether VPI made a wise move in naming, pricing, and choosing build materials for the Classic DD. |
Lewm, yeah $30k is a lot of money and there seems to be a few more options in that range and I really think VPI made a marketing misstep. Since I can't afford products like that, I am mainly curious about the technology. I'm not sure you've checked out my _P_O_S_T_ from few days ago about VPI using THINGAP motor. Check it out. The Classic Direct uses the same brand of motor in the Continuum Caliburn and said to be truly "cogging free." The stator design is fascinating. _______ |
Yes Lewm the market will determine the fate of this 30 G entry however ,..
Let's say Winfelds costs per motor and power supply with bulk pricing is somewhere in the $5000.00 region .
Now here's the kicker,..
$6.00 for the MDF per unit ,
sealer and paint another $6.00 per unit.
5/8 aluminum plate that's glued to the MDF , $15.00 bulk price per sheet,
machining the aluminum platter lets say $500.00 , "Aluminum ",not stainless steel and copper or some custom blend of materials that you would expect on a table at this price point.
platter bearing $150.00 again nothing special I suppose , I'm sure he has cases of platter bearings in the stock room and finally shop labour per unit $1,000 to $1,500.00 before going out the door and I think I'm being pretty liberal with the shop estimates.
$ 30,000.00 ,...come on .
This is new territories for VPI , I wouldn't imagine anyone in their customer base would jump in and buy one no matter how brand loyal some of them are. Maybe stick with what you know best VPI . |
In_shore, you have isolated some of the direct material costs, you touched on some of the direct labor cost, but you completely eliminated any reference to factory overhead, manufacturing profit, and distribution/dealer profit.
In manufacturing, a 5x multiple is not unreasonable to generate a retail price. The motor alone would account for $25,000 of the retail price. VPIs retail pricing model is not out of line with other manufactures. Having said that, I still think it is a big misstep for VPI. |
Dealer cost on this table is prob in the $18K range. Doesn't the Classic Direct include the new 3D arm and a VTA on-the-fly micrometer? If Harry is planning a new flagship it will probably be $50K or more retail and look very different.
Has the same motor as the Continuum? What does that cost?
Some people might have a beef with VPI over customer service, QC or whatever. It's the dealers responsibility, not the factory. VPI is nice enough to deal directly with the customer, but they're not set up for that.
You have a choice. Buy what you want. |
02-05-14: Fleib:
"Has the same motor as the Continuum? What does that cost?" Reportedly $4000. But the ThinGap motor does NOT include bearing assembly. It's an off the shelf unit that includes only the rotor with the magnets and the stator that the coils are etched on a cylindrical circuit board. Very interesting technology that claims to have no cogging. VPI has to machine a bearing for it to complete a motor and of course fitted to the platter and plinth, etc... so obviously that adds to the cost. I much rather they just start with a new platform and disassociate it with the Classic series and bump the price even further if they have to and simply announce that's their new flagship. Yes, people will buy $50k turntables but those people don't want to be reminded that it looks like a Classic! Every year there are products with outrageous price but why are people get bent out of shape by the price of this VPI direct drive makes no sense to me, when it clearly uses new technology and refinement. After all there's a tonearm costing $35k.... Time will tell and the market will decide. _______ |
Yes this new cog-less motor could very well be THE motor for direct drive table and could be a break through in table motor technologies ,but a MDF arm board and plinth?
Take a look at Steve Dobbins table, the Kodo Beat for a good example of an exceptional built quality of the highest order or any other table at this price point, you don't get MDF,...
I have no ill will against VPI, I never owned any of their products nor have I dealt with them in any way.
I just think VPI need to rethink the use of MDF in this 30 grand table that's all. |
I don't believe its anyones' business but VPI to price their own products. The marketplace will vote with their dollars. The turntable is there for the taking or not...to me, that's the end of the discussion. |
