A few thoughts about vintage direct drive tables.
In the '70s many Japanese manufacturers developed quality, precision DD tables - Technics, Denon, Sony, Trio/Kenwood, even Sansui. While these became fairly popular, they were expensive to design and build. So, to broaden sales potential, many lightweight and less expensive DD models were introduced. They may have been affordable but their sonics, and ultimately the reputation of DD, suffered.
In addition, several smaller American and European companies (who did not have the resources to develop quality DD systems) introduced belt drive tables, noting how much quieter they were than the (inexpensive) DD and rim drive tables. As a result, belt drive tables quickly dominated the market and then proceeded to expand to all price points.
Recently (5 years ago?) a revived interest began for quality DD and even rim drive tables, this time with heavy plinths and other isolation measures that better addressed the torque and vibration issues inherent in these designs. As a result, there is now serious interest in older Garrard, Thorens, Lenco, Technics, Denon, etc. tables.
So while the majority of consumer (less expensive) DD tables may have been lacking in performance, it is not fair disregard every DD table. And as Les pointed out, the Technics 12XX series was not designed as a DJ table, but it was adopted later by club DJs because of it's torque and build quality. It was up to Kevin at KAB to bring out the sonic potential of these (consumer) DD tables.
So Chuckelator, it's not just the look, there is great sonic quality potential if you choose the right vintage model. |
I agree with Mapman 'bout the Philips 312. I picked one up off ebay last Christmas for $80.00. Absolutely mint, sounds incredibly good. And it LOOKS like a tt should, IMO. |
Gaslover - This thread seems to be about scoring bargains on vintage tables and I would say that $80 for a Phillips GA 312 certainly qualifies as a steal as long as the cosmetics and performance are still good. It compares more closely to Bang and Olufsen than to these heavyweight direct drive numbers we are talking about. By comparison it is lightweight, ringy and springy and won't approach their speed stability.
I'm not sure there is any established standard for what a turntable should look like.
I agree with Pryso completely about the way things came down in the turntable market. Reviewers played a pretty big part in boosting VPI, SOTA, Linn and Oracle in those days at the expense of superior Japanese tables.
And ironically enough, the Technics SP-10 was originally designed for DJ work and, because it was so good and so user friendly, was revised as the SP-10 MK II and sold to audiophiles. Later, the 12xx series are made for audiophiles and, because they are so good, were picked up by DJs. Full circle. |
Philips 312 is definitely not the best sound, but very nice and very cool! |
Macrojack, talk about coming full circle, my very first turntable in 1982 was a Technics SL-5 linear tracking turntable. At the time, I was only 13 years old reading Stereo Magazine. That turntable lasted me through 2 systems, the first full Technics system - tape deck (with dBx), receiver and speakers. I was then able to upgrade to a Yamaha integrated amp (huge step up) and a pair of JBL 4412 studio monitors. That saw me to college. Some where along the way, I moved out of vinyl and into CDs where I saw my hifi system dwindle away into nothingness through many years until I came across the Zanden dac.
You and Pryso are correct about the current state of turntables. I would like to add that when these large Japanese companies pulled out of the turntable market, the barrier to entry was lifted - the real competition left - and thus real competition dissolved.
Maybe that is changing now, as there are some new direct drive tables entering the market. I am sure there are some excellent belt driven turntables too. I'm sure the engineering that went into them are tremendous.
But what would happen if a Pioneer or a Technics decided to enter in the high end market again? Where do you think their price points would come in? |
Chuckelator - 1st want to thank you for this thread, I have refound old TT's and have been sucked in after pulling out of the attic my older Thorns TD160 that I have had since collage 35yrs ago. After doing research, a great site for this is the analog dept. - strong following for Thorns, I rebuilt the TD160 with the birch plywood base - but I added aluminum banding to cover this detail, damping the inners and then most impt - installing an older SME3009 ll arm on the original SME arm board. Had to cut some of the steel sub base to fit this in, but the final looks and sound is great. Then rewired the SME arm with Cardas tonearm wire to cardas RCA jacks mounted on the back side( very impt). redid the power wiring to the standard male output so a new power cord can be used, footers to raise and level the table. The motor was in great condition - no noise. This TT has great focus, depth and soundstage. I was so impressed I have purchased two more TD160's ( to make one ) and another SME arm.
So things happen in three's - on ebay last month a AR ES1 TT came up - totally perfect, inc the plexglass cover - not even a ding. So for this project I found on AG a Black Widow tonearm ( always wanted one ) that I am fitting to the AR. I am getting motor noise from the hearst motor and will probably replace this with the new 22vac motor/power supply from the Soundofthewood.com Another great site for AR is Vinylenirvana. The fun part is the rebuilding and to show others how well these old TT's can sound.
There is a downside - prices. I wanted a TD124 but on ebay this can go over $1200 - 1500 before you spend a bunch to rebuild. Art Dudley( Stereophile ) has made a big deal this year in his purchase of a TD124 and his new love with this table. This is where the TD160 for $100-200 can be a best buy, lots were made. Older AR's are harder to find. The SME 3009 arms are also inflated. You have to pick and choose to find the right price.
No matter what you do, if you have the tools and skills, the tables can sound good and really look great - have fun.
Bruce |
Some excellent links.
Thanks everybody! |
James1969- The economy of scale is gone and so is the mass market subsidy. Those companies would elect to use exotic materials and they would machine to preposterous precision. If they did it. Which they won't. Ever.
The market is too small for a giant like that to be bothered. That's why the companies making most turntables today are able to stay in business. They are able to fly under the corporate radar because this market segment is just too fringey for the big guys to bother with. |
so...aside from the technics 1200's and the like, any other good model reccomendations for vintage dd turntables to keep an eye out for? as far as belt drives go, im keeping my eyes on the td-160 for now, and the ar tables too, i love the way they look more than anything. i know jvc, kenwood and alot of the other japanese brands are good names, but what models specifically should i watch for? |
Macrojack, I think it is misleading to state "the Technics SP-10 was originally designed for DJ work". I believe it was designed for studio application, which included radio DJs, but not club DJs as we think of them today -- mixin' and scratchin' and all that!
Stan Ricker told me he suggested the SP-10 motor drive application for disc cutting in mastering studios and apparently many were used for that. But the SP-10 was also offered as a consumer product, not just for professional studios. And the SP-10 Mk2, Mk2A, and Mk3 upgrades were sold as both studio and consumer products.
With the introduction of CDs in 1982, many radio stations began switching from vinyl almost immediately because of easier handling and cueing plus less storage space than LPs. This was about the time of introduction for the SP-10 Mk 3 so studio demand never really developed and not many were built. It was also quite expensive for a consumer product. Thus came the end of the higher quality DD tables.
As an aside, a friend just purchased a Teres rim drive motor and controller for use with his VPI Scout. Apparently the VPI rim drive only fits the Super Scoutmaster and TNT. Anyway, the rim drive on his Scout is a revelation -- it is quieter, offers better bass, more spaciousness, and simply pulls you along with the music in a way the original belt drive cannot. Which brings us back to the OT, some of the better vintage DD and rim drive tables should not be considered outmoded and can stand up to today's performance standards when set up correctly. |
Chuckelator, the Thorens 160 is a belt drive, quite a different animal from the TD 124 rim drive that Art Dudley restored and wrote up. So, visual appearance aside, while many vintage belt drive tables can provide satisfying performance, what a few others and myself are suggesting is the best performance may be found in the Technics SP-10 Mk 2, 15, and 25, the larger and heavier Denons, the Kenwood 500 and 600 series with their composite plinths, perhaps selected Pioneer or JVC models (I'm not familiar with any of them), or a rim drive such as a Lenco. An archive search will turn up lots of information on any of these.
Other quality tables such as the SP-10 Mk3, Kenwood L-07D, Garrard 301 and 401, Thorens 124, EMT, Nakamichi, and some Denons could be outstanding but they all have followings and therefore are more expensive than many of us would consider. |
oh, i knew that the 160 was a belt...but it does have an appeal to me for some reason, and yeah, i read about the 124, which also does have its appeal too, but from what ive heard, alot of what you find of them today need alot of work to make them still operate properly. |
and also, along with the direct drive turntables im considering, i'm also considering going with a vintage pioneer reciever... (ya know...the whole vintage appeal) i found a pioneer silverface reference site, and found it very interesteing, and these recievers are extremely appealing to me. any thoughts/comments on these (not meaning to change the thread, but i figured while its at the top and people are looking at it, id throw it in there!) |
C: Stop ! Consider this: All early receivers require work. Unless you are an expert they will play but never up to the specs -- Its all a matter of age. Don't be cute...It will cost you $$$$$ to restore a unit. Unless you know exactly where to turn for advice. |
C: My appology if I gave the appearnce of coming on strong. I my self collect vintage equipment. My first piece was a 1947 Grundig-Majestic type 1088 that suddendlly stopped playing. The first estimate for repair was $800 . Fortunately, I found a vintage repair person that estimated the actual cost @ $60.00. The unit plays perfectly. Presently, Eric is repairing to other units for me and has repaired a 1/2 dozen others. He is located in Baltimore, MD. Should you need his advice, send me a eail and I will gladly forward his firms address and telephone number. All the best. |
i think i know who your talking about acutually...hes right off the avenue in hamden right? i have his business card in my wallet, haha. |
well, the avenue, 34th street...right next to that old hardware store right? |
Denon DP-500M. It's solidly aimed at the home market and the mktg lit sez it's been engineered to minimize internal vibrations. They also have an upscale model, the DP1300 Mk2 not officially imported to the US (but available via audiocubes2.com) that runs about $1800. If I were going to buy and not mess around, I'd probably get the Denon DP500M, but to extract more performance, I'd get a Technics SL12x0 and have KAB put on the fluid damper and tonearm rewire at the least, and probably go for the outboard PSU, threaded clamp, and some serious feet as well. The feet could be the KAB-available Isonoe footers 'n' boots, or some Mapleshade threaded Brass Heavyfeet. They're about the same price. If you go with brass cones, platform the TT onto a thick butcher block cutting board or 2-4" slab of maple supported by Isoblocks or Vibrapods. My personal rig is an SL1210 M5G with fluid damper, aftermarket mat, KAB rubber record grip, threaded brass feet (not Mapleshades but only cuz I'm cheap), a butcherblock cutting board, and Vibrapod feet underneath it all. I use a Denon DL-160 HOMC mounted to a Sumiko headshell adjusted for azimuth and am really pleased with this rig at a mid-rez level (Amber electronics driving Mirage speakers). |
Ive seen a few of the denon's here on the gon and on ebay...i really like the look of them actually..and ive heard nothing but good things about them, i would definately like to check them out. |
C: That's the MAN. Eric has such skill and knowledge besides being fair and honorable. He and his family are a real slice of ye 'ol balmer much like the folks i knew as a kid growing up near Govens . Right now he's working on SA-100 and an Advent. And, he gives you a hands-on free estimate. |
excellent...if i have problems, ill definately take my stuff to him. i can't remember where i got his card from actually...haha, might have been one of the second-hand stores on 34th street when me and my girlfriend were looking for used turntables one day. does he actually have anything hes currently trying to sell? or does he just do repairs? |
Chuckelator: As far as I know Eric and his Dad are not a resellers, but on occasion they assist a client to find folks that want to sell certian vintage electronic items. You must visit the store;the place is cramed will all sorts of ancient photo/audio gear. Hollywood Si-Fi film producers visit so why not. Call before you stop bye.
The question , for me, is "Are vintage turntables worth the trouble ?". My answer is sometimes and only rarely. Why ? Because most are flawed either in design or execution. For example the Garrard 301 & 401 were generally discarded in the 1970-90's. It was not until complete rebuilds with new pliths appeared on the secondary market('00-'04) the prices started to sore (ouch). At prices between $3,000-$11,000; these tables are no bargins rebuilt. Also, one needs to know difference's between a true rebuild and a dust off.
Vintage turntables come with a variety of noise and reliability issues. In my opinion, plastic plithed turntables all sound alike, as do most suspended and unsuspended. Same applies to direct drives. The exceptions are the wooden based Garrard # 92 and 100 (needs a lot of work) , the Maplenolls (lots of work and air driven) and Luxman Direct Drive Record Players and the origional XAR wooden base Record Players. I define turntable as W/O a tonearm and a record player as a complete package. The exceptions given a lot of TLC , properly damped with worn parts replaced can equal many of the Hi-Fi Tables. For plug and play buy a Luxman DD. They are built like tanks. As for receivers try a Marantz 2250b (limited ed. if you can find one); one of the finest ever built. The internet and AG offer the best chance to located a good working audio gear: The "Avenue" you get who's knows what. |
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Emailers: For those requesting the address of the vintage audio restorer it is, Audio-Visual Services,3401 Chestnut Avenue(@ W34th Street intersection), Baltimore , Md 21211, phone # 410-467-3620, Attn; Eric Falkenhan. Eric's father will likely answer the call.
Eric also repairs vintage tube guitar amps for the "cream of the crop" Audio houses in the Country. I believe your experience will equal mine. Please mention " Charlie from Audiogon referred you". The only reason for that is that I would like to track how many actually use the referral. Thanks |
If you're still looking for used and affordable 'tables, I would like to recommend the Thorens TD-125 and the Yamaha PF-800.
The Thorens is a wonderful 'table when fitted with the usual SME 3009 arm - stable pitch, big soundstage, refined top end.
The Yamaha 'table was a major surprise for me - suspended, heavy platter, decent arm. When I bought it from a friend, another acquaintance -a stereophile reviewer- expressed consternation - he'd wanted it!
Just for reference, here are the best tables I've heard, in order:
1. Kuzma "Classic"(? unsure of model) With Cardas Heart cartridge - George Cardas brought this to the Stereophile Hi-Fi show in 1995 and told us it was "$1200"... but I've never seen another one under $2500.
2. VPI TNT / ET linear arm/ Benz Micro MC3 cart
3. Well-Tempered Turntable/ Arm/ AT (?) cartridge
4. Linn 25th anniversary LP12 w/Benz MC3 cartridge
5. Thorens TD-125/SME 3009/ Ortofon unk cartridge
6. Yamaha PF-800 with variety of cartridges. I regret selling it.
7. Un-modified Technics 1200MK2/Standard Arm/Ortofon 2M Blue cart - hoping KAB modifications will move this rating up a few notches.
I have to state that I've heard one Sota Star Sapphire, and probably like James1969, found it to be utterly uninvolving. Same with the older Rega Planar 3, Planar 2, and the Music Hall 7.1.
Good luck, I am very interested to hear what you end up with!
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Joe, could the Kuzma "Classic" you heard have been the one with the oak plinth and cover? If so, it was the Stabi table. Two arms were available, the Stogi and Stogi Reference. I was not aware that Cardas used a Kuzma but the Stabi/Stogi was reviewed in Stereophile and given a B recommendation about that time, and was used at Acoustic Sounds for several years. As far as I know it remains in production but may not be part of the current line up in the US.
I've owned a Stabi/Stogi Reference for over ten years and still believe it is one of the best at it's price point (well above George's price quote).
Relevant to our subject, even though these Kuzma designs are more than 10 years old, I would not call them "vintage". |
man...thats great...i have an old marshall guitar amp that needs to be retubed and somethings messed up with the inputs...ill have to have him look at that as well. |
Chuck: Check out the Revolver TT offered on AG . What a great buy. Everything costs something ... Se Ya |
Schipo, I heard the Nakamichi tt at Garland's in San Jose. As I remember it, it did make a difference(at a very high cost), but it still sounded like the direct-drive turntables of that era(not too good). BTW, people should be aware that many of these Technic's turntables that are raved about do not sound good stock. So, you have to modify them to get the sound that is talked about. |
Gentlemen I am an avid vintage equipment collector. At the same time I have the audiophile bug in me. I have been reading this thread for some time now and some posts really make my laugh, others just make me shake my head. To the fellow that bought a Sota Cosmos III and had it upgraded to a Cosmos IV and then he fell for a Technics all i have to say is that his Comsos must have had some major issue with the electronics. For a moment reading this post I thought I had written it and had forgoten about it up to a certain point. You see I also bought a Cosmos III (used) and had it upgraded to a IV and NOTHING absolutely NOTHING mentioned in this thread can handle a candle to it. I had a Technics 1200 MK V that I used in my secondary system that I also put up against the Cosmos. It did not have the KAB upgrades and could not even hold a canlde to the Cosmos. I got rid of it, I could not stand this D-J look and the sound was cold and uninvolving with my Grado Reference cartridge. Now I own a Sony PS-X600 with a Shure 97 whatever cartridge, a Pioneer PL 570 (wooden base) and my pride and joy a Yamaha PF-800 by far the best of the bunch. I love the Grado sound and have used Grados for over a decade now and both the Pioneer and the Yamaha have Grado Sonatas on them). Each time I bought one of these vintage jewels I wished they had the cojones to displace the Sota but each time the Cosmos proved to be the musical 800 LB gorilla in my main system. Please read: I WNATED one of the vintage TTs to displace the Cosmos! I would sell it use the money for other stuff! My wishes were not asnwred! The Cosmos always sounded the best. Needless to say I always used my Grado Reference on the "contenders" just to keep the fight even...
I have kept the Pioneer and the Yamaha and I am going to give the Sony to my teenage daughter as a gift. She is also bitten by the audiophile bug...
The last couples of years or so I have acquired various vintage receivers ( Sansui 9090, Pioneer SX 1080, Sansui AU 717, Marantz 2275B, Sansui PX-800, Sony PS-X600, Pioneer PL 570, Kenwood KR-6600, Klipsh legacys II, Klipsh Forte etc. etc.). I have put each and every onw of these against my audiophile rig (Musical Fidelity KW 500, Egglestone Andra II speakers, Sota Cosmos with Origin Live Conqueror arm and Grado Reference cartridge, monarchy Audio M24 DAC and an older Yamaha CDX-810UCD player that I use as a transport) and the results have always been the same: No contest! I enjoy those as much as can be and I am always on the lookout for something "new" and different but I also know that science and technology does go ahead and given the same standards of build and quality newer technology outperforms older one. And this applies to cars, stereo equipment, Home appliances, airplanes and pencils.
Wishful thinking aside you can dream that your vintage TT or receiver can beat their modern equivalents any time of the day but in the end it will all be just that: Wishful Thinking. No, you do not have to be afraid of the super pricey TTs and I do agree that a lot of them are mostly hot air and moronic pricing but please come down to earth and smell the roses. Or just live your dreams and be happy. Thinking about it my POS chryshler Pacifica does handle better that that overpriced lexus, mercedes or Ferrari...or is it even better than those if I soup it up???
Enjoy the hobby guys...do not take this too seriously.
Cheers |
Musicgioni, it kinda depends on the Technics doesn't it? This seems to be at the crux of what you were saying. The 1200 is an OK machine, nothing special. If you want to hear a better one, you need an SP-10 MkII or MkIII.
The 1200 is easy to find, the SP-10 is not, and when you find one be prepared to spend real money.
Most vintage machines are easily surpassed by newer 'tables today. But there are a few older machines that have a following, and mostly because they keep up with newer machines (although usually they need refurbishment and then an update, which in some cases is extensive).
These machines, as far as I can tell are the Technics SP-10s, the Garrard 301, the Lenco idler-drive, the Empire 208 and not a whole lot else (although I might have missed one...). These machines have several features in common: heavy platter, robust precision bearing, robust drive system: overall good speed stability. Most older machines suffer acoustic resonance problems, which are usually a good portion of the update applied. Often you wind up with a machine that would cost as much as a new one too :) |
Atmasphere,
There is truth in what you say as well as Musicgioni. Vintage equipment should be upgraded and serviced in order to have a correct evaluation with it's modern counterpart.
For the most part new does trounce old , but not always and this varies from category to category and how do we categorize vintage?
In the case of a TT , the Technics was avg 30 yrs ago and still avg today hence the results, academic really. Take any of the top turners from past era's, Micro Sieki, Garrard, Thorens, SME, Linn et al and I'm positive they will stand up to the best of today ..
Crap many TT companies consider acrylic the only way to go when making a TT..My Connoisseur TT of 37 yrs ago was all acrylic ..:)
Japanese receivers and amplfiers were considered avg sonically 30 yrs ago, nothing hi-end and nothing will change that today. There allure is not sonics IMO, but the beauty of a bygone era, where each brand had it's own face and features were galore, nothing like the bland one knob stuff being sold today ...
Regards, |
Musicgioni,
What decent 60's vintage tables had you listened to? I don't see any restored vintage tube amps. Is it all 70's stuff that you're touting as your vintage experience? I am sure the Comet does hold its own against a myriad of 70's tables, but that's hardly saying that you have enough to make any claims about vintage tables.
Your speakers are great and i am sure that they out class upper-mid-fi speakers like the Fortes, it does not seem like a fair comparison? |
Weseixas, I would agree that *most* Technics machines are rather ordinary. The SP-10s are an exception. They have a lot of excellent engineering that went into their servo design, of the likes that you don't see these days. As a result, they represent the pinnacle of direct-drive machines, and if refurbished and properly set up, challenge any modern 'table.
This is why these machines command some rather amazing prices on the used market, particularly the SP-10 Mk3. |
Hello Atmasphere,
Have to admit to hearing the SP-10 on one occasion many moons ago, so i cannot comment on it's recently acquired status but do agree that both the Technics and the idler wheel drive Lenco's do have a strong following, my comments were directed at the more commonly known Technics stuff.
Funny how both tables were never thought of being anything special during there day .. |
Musicgioni, I agree with Atmasphere. You compare the Cosmos to some middle of the road vintage direct-drive turntables and then make a sweeping generalization about all vintage turntables. Likewise, you compare vintage receivers to your very high quality modern system that consists of separates, and again you make a sweeping generalization in favor of the latter. My point is that there are MANY vintage turntables that, like your Cosmos, also blow away the vintage turntables you listened to. (Try a re-plinthed Lenco or Garrard or a restored SP10 Mk2 or Mk3, or a restored Exclusive P3 or Kenwood L07D or many top end models of Denon, Sony, Yamaha, etc., in proper plinths). As regards the electronics, etc, the art of solid state audio design is always a slave to the available technology of the individual parts. So, because these days we have faster, better, transistors than ever before, better caps and resistors, too, it is not surprising that today's solid state products are likely to be superior. I say "likely" because in many cases the build quality of the older stuff will mitigate the negative effects of out-dated parts. As for tube gear, your generalization just does not hold up.
The other thing you don't mention is the condition of the products you auditioned. Anything more than 20 years old probably needs to have all its electrolytic caps replaced, for example. Old direct-drive tt's need to have that done, especially. In many cases, outdated transistors in some of this gear can be replaced with modern and functionally superior equivalents, which makes a huge difference in performance. |
Weseixas, I suppose that depends on who to talk to. I had an SL1100, the very first direct-drive machine, and when the SP-10 came out, I wanted one a lot but could not afford it.
Maybe three years later (1982??) a friend of mine bought an SP-10 and it was immediately apparent that this was a great machine, and as I recall by that time it was widely viewed as one of the top tables at that time, although it did not have as much cache because it was not American-made. |
The top Japanese table of that era IMO was Micro Seiki, i was not aware of the SP-10 being highly rated. Not unusual for the time i guess, before internet a lot was determined by the mags and localized knowledge..
Word up did not fly around as it does today..... :)
Regards,
|
The war of words between Michael of SOTA and Ivor of Linn dominated the turntable scene in the press in the early 80s and there was a general belief that Japanese product of that period was just dressed up mid-fi. In fact, the SP-10 MK II was packaged with the obsidian plinth and dustcover and an EPA-100 tonearm and marketed as the SL-1000 MK II simply because so many audiophiles were buying them for home use. |
I'm not so sure. Harry Pearson went ape over either the original SP10 or the SP10 Mk 2 (I think it was the original version), and that gave the product a whole lot of cache in the US. You might say that it was the first Japanese product to be so lionized, but there may have been others. The Micro Seiki products, on the other hand, were relatively unknown to me, living on the East coast US, and I was just as much of an audio nut then (in the 1970s) as now. |
Lew - My memory is not to be trusted absolutely but I remember some things pretty well. I recall the EPA-100 and The Arm as being the TAS darlings of the day. It's quite possible that the SP-10 was as well. However, in those days the Goldmund tables reigned supreme and a variety of belts got the reviewers in a lather. Oracle, VPI, SOTA and Linn were the headliners as I recall. |
I owned and used a Phillips GA-312 (with the green tough lights) for nearly 17 years. I really enjoyed it. No I use an upgraded Mitsubishi LT-30 with no desire to change. Actually, the LT-30 replaced a Linn LP 12. |
