vintage turntables?

Macrojack, I think it is misleading to state "the Technics SP-10 was originally designed for DJ work". I believe it was designed for studio application, which included radio DJs, but not club DJs as we think of them today -- mixin' and scratchin' and all that!

Stan Ricker told me he suggested the SP-10 motor drive application for disc cutting in mastering studios and apparently many were used for that. But the SP-10 was also offered as a consumer product, not just for professional studios. And the SP-10 Mk2, Mk2A, and Mk3 upgrades were sold as both studio and consumer products.

With the introduction of CDs in 1982, many radio stations began switching from vinyl almost immediately because of easier handling and cueing plus less storage space than LPs. This was about the time of introduction for the SP-10 Mk 3 so studio demand never really developed and not many were built. It was also quite expensive for a consumer product. Thus came the end of the higher quality DD tables.

As an aside, a friend just purchased a Teres rim drive motor and controller for use with his VPI Scout. Apparently the VPI rim drive only fits the Super Scoutmaster and TNT. Anyway, the rim drive on his Scout is a revelation -- it is quieter, offers better bass, more spaciousness, and simply pulls you along with the music in a way the original belt drive cannot. Which brings us back to the OT, some of the better vintage DD and rim drive tables should not be considered outmoded and can stand up to today's performance standards when set up correctly.

A few thoughts about vintage direct drive tables.

In the '70s many Japanese manufacturers developed quality, precision DD tables - Technics, Denon, Sony, Trio/Kenwood, even Sansui. While these became fairly popular, they were expensive to design and build. So, to broaden sales potential, many lightweight and less expensive DD models were introduced. They may have been affordable but their sonics, and ultimately the reputation of DD, suffered.

In addition, several smaller American and European companies (who did not have the resources to develop quality DD systems) introduced belt drive tables, noting how much quieter they were than the (inexpensive) DD and rim drive tables. As a result, belt drive tables quickly dominated the market and then proceeded to expand to all price points.

Recently (5 years ago?) a revived interest began for quality DD and even rim drive tables, this time with heavy plinths and other isolation measures that better addressed the torque and vibration issues inherent in these designs. As a result, there is now serious interest in older Garrard, Thorens, Lenco, Technics, Denon, etc. tables.

So while the majority of consumer (less expensive) DD tables may have been lacking in performance, it is not fair disregard every DD table. And as Les pointed out, the Technics 12XX series was not designed as a DJ table, but it was adopted later by club DJs because of it's torque and build quality. It was up to Kevin at KAB to bring out the sonic potential of these (consumer) DD tables.

So Chuckelator, it's not just the look, there is great sonic quality potential if you choose the right vintage model.

Chuckelator, the Thorens 160 is a belt drive, quite a different animal from the TD 124 rim drive that Art Dudley restored and wrote up. So, visual appearance aside, while many vintage belt drive tables can provide satisfying performance, what a few others and myself are suggesting is the best performance may be found in the Technics SP-10 Mk 2, 15, and 25, the larger and heavier Denons, the Kenwood 500 and 600 series with their composite plinths, perhaps selected Pioneer or JVC models (I'm not familiar with any of them), or a rim drive such as a Lenco. An archive search will turn up lots of information on any of these.

Other quality tables such as the SP-10 Mk3, Kenwood L-07D, Garrard 301 and 401, Thorens 124, EMT, Nakamichi, and some Denons could be outstanding but they all have followings and therefore are more expensive than many of us would consider.

Joe, could the Kuzma "Classic" you heard have been the one with the oak plinth and cover? If so, it was the Stabi table. Two arms were available, the Stogi and Stogi Reference. I was not aware that Cardas used a Kuzma but the Stabi/Stogi was reviewed in Stereophile and given a B recommendation about that time, and was used at Acoustic Sounds for several years. As far as I know it remains in production but may not be part of the current line up in the US.

I've owned a Stabi/Stogi Reference for over ten years and still believe it is one of the best at it's price point (well above George's price quote).

Relevant to our subject, even though these Kuzma designs are more than 10 years old, I would not call them "vintage".