Vandersteen's new affordable mono blocks at the CES 18

@tomic601 - thanks - cool that you liked the finish on mine.....!!! :) cheers

happy for you. Can't wait to hear your thoughts once burned in etc... They get even better once you hit 500 hours.  I'm sure you will love them for a very long time.  

How wonderful 

After waiting a grueling three weeks after I placed my order, I finally have in my possession a set of M5-HPAs. I have them connected between a Pass XP-22 and Vandersteen 5A Carbons. Cabling is AQ Water interconnects and four foot Anticables 3.1. I have had the M5s running for twenty four hours. In a word, they are amazing. I’ve never heard holographic, clearly layered deep soundstaging like this. Ascribe any positive attribute you want. They deliver. I would put them up against any amplifier hi-passed to a sub. On top of that, they run cool and don’t hog power!

What color did you go with? I ended up going with Audi Havana black however in hindsight I think I would’ve done one of the cool Bentley Crimson colors in a really cool pearl

@darthlaker system was i believe the inspiration for the paint color i picked for my 7’s ;-) ya man !!!!!

@veerapaneni  Randy has my old VXR-20 or did, which some say sounds better than the MXR-20 , and of course he has the REf250 as well. Randy is my dealer for RV’s amp, which i love.
best to you, hope you are enjoying the 7’s magical as they are.
jim

Thanks for sharing.  All very interesting.  I got to hear the Kento/M5-HP combo at Audio Connection.  I was blown away.  Just an amazing speaker for the price.  It truly is CLOSE to the 7's and the amps are close to the M7-HP's.  It's really an amazing price point for what you get.  

Johnny Rutan took me aside and auditioned the CAD CG1 passive grounding device.  They make a larger and better CG3 as well as a new reference device.  HOLY COW....this is a must get for most folks I believe.  the small one was hooked up to the RCA out on the DAC.  It made a huge difference and it was 100% positive unlike some of the grounding devices I've heard and that include the Entreq ones I've heard, which are good, but there was something about it that didn't make me feel is needed it in my system. This CAD device is the next purchase for me.  I know there are only a couple of dealers in the US, but I think they have a guarantee.  You can call and ask Johnny if you want to, but it took the Treo's (I used to own them so I know what this device does) to another level. The power cords were the AQ Tornado's and the speaker cables were originally the AQ Castlerock, but once we put on the William Tell copper (what I own) the system took on a new level in every area.  It lowered the noise floor GREATLY.  Even with dedicated lines as I use, it will make a large difference.  Sorry to go on and on, but have wanted to share that bit for a week now. 

The other thing that Richard fully explained was why you need a true zero global feedback amp for his speakers to sound their absolute best as he shared with earth tones.  I changed my system to a zero global feedback amp when I got the Treo's as that's what makes them sound their best. I also feel that the glare you get from an amp that uses feedback is something I don't enjoy the sound off regardless of how good the amp is, but that's totally my thoughts.  Some may not even heard the difference or care.  JMHO

Anyone compared mxr-20s and ARC REF 250se with 7s .

thanks for sharing Darth. I know that Ryan, Gary and the guys at Ayre feel the same way.  Too many folks seem to buy expensive amps and don't even think about the pre.  

I have the KXR20 and MXR20's with my Sevens. Both upgraded from original versions. The upgrade was substantial and more so with the pre over the amps.

Sounds sublime!

The MXR's are a great amp to my ears also.  I'd love to hear as shootout. Also, the Brinkman and AR amps work great with his speakers.  You need a zero feedback design for Vandy's to sing.  Just like you need to be fully balanced to get the most out of Ayre.  

The true key to power is the preamp though.  The best Ayre product to me, is the KXR/20 preamp.  For my money, it's the most neutral preamp I've ever heard and I've heard it with tubes, SS and hybrids.  I've heard it with Vandy's, Magico's, Wilson, ML, Maggies, Dynaudio, Avalon, B&W and many more.  I'd put that preamp with their 9k VX5/20 and it would sound better than the KX5/20 pre with VXR/20 stereo amp.  

Richard Vandersteen mentioned to me the best Amps (besides his  M7-HPA which are US$60K a pair) he has heard with the Sevens are the Ayre MXR-20's.....

Ask Richard about DSP. It can be heard as of today.  No one makes anything with DSP that can't be 'heard'.  That's why I like analog tuning of the bass vs using DSP.  

Many will tell me I'm full of it as THEIR DSP works best etc...  Those are my ears though as well as some friends ears.  

Digital is a strange bedfellow.  It's SOOOO dependent on how we connect it to the electrical grid in our homes.  Even DAC;s can sound different in each system.  This is why I finally decided to upgrade my electrical feeding my system.  

I had the Synergistic Research's top Powercell 10 and Basis cords.  Once I switched to an AQ Niagara and Hurricane cords (will upgrade the server or DAC to the Dragon source), my system finally took shape.  I can honestly say my digital sounds as good as most of the analog systems I've heard.  Basically, they have figured out how to lower 3 types of jitter.  Keeping the digital hash off the line that feeds my system is HUGE in lowering the noise floor.  That just changes everything for the better.

Sorry to go off script, but since I can no longer use analog, I had to find the best digital that I could afford.  It's a great discussion.  

I hadn’t considered that Roon software could be an issue, except when playing with DSP. If I raise a frequency band really high, say 70db, just to see what happens, the result is bad distortion, but I don’t know if that’s because I was overloading the USB input to my DAC. DSP aside, I don’t see how there could be degradation. Red book CD all the way through double rate DSD all sound very good generally, depending on the recording, with DSD sounding the most natural. But even DSD doesn’t quite match the best of my LPs, played on my VPI Classic 4 with Kiseki Purpleheart mounted to an SME 312s to a Pass XP 17.

I'm sure you will fall in love with these new amps.  

I notice you are using Roon.  I love what Roon does, but it's not the best sounding program for digital.  JRiver is a much better sounding program to use for digital.  Matt Clott, who now write for TAS is a very close friend who is a digital guy.  He's been going back and forth with Roon vs others and what control programs sound best and why.  I am now using only JRiver through my The Memory Player by Laufer Technik.  

You may also want to try JRiver vs Roon to see what your thoughts are.  I'd be curious to what you hear.

@earthtones,
Thanks for the response.
Feedback, or more importantly, the lack of, seems to be a feature that makes Vandy's sing.
Bob

A partial listing of the equipment in my system includes: Vandersteen 5A Carbons, Pass XP-22, PS Audio Directstream DAC, PS Audio P20 power regenerator, VPI Classic 4, a Roon server and currently one gaping hole because I have no amps since I sold my Pass XA60.8s. I’m going to be getting a loaner amp in a day or two to tide me over.

Compared to the XA60.8s, I felt that the M5-HPAs sounded smoother and instruments sounded more natural. I had mentioned somewhere else the saxophone on the "The girl from Ipanema". When it hit, it just sort of jumped out at me as sounding like it was weightier and almost right in the room with me. Massed strings are less emphasized and more as part of a cohesive top to bottom presentation. I was pretty happy with XA60.8s when I had my Quatro CTs, but the more open midrange on the 5ACs made me feel something was amiss that no room treatment, positioning or Roon DSP tweaking could ameliorate. Essentially, there was a glare in the upper midrange - at times. On good days, when I wasn’t too fatigued from other things and perhaps the AC quality was good, (P20 is only on upstream components), I could be floored with my setup. At other times, trying to get through an extremely difficult piece to do well on a system - for example, Brahms 3rd symphony, especially the opening, was a bit fatiguing. RV himself chalks this up to the XA60.8s having global negative feedback, which causes time smear and is especially evident with his time and phase correct speakers. Also, I’m sure something could be said for the simpler circuit path in his M5-HPAs. All I can say is that once I heard the M5-HPA’s, there was no going back. Now, my Pass XP-22 sounded great to me and I plan to keep it in the system. It is exceedingly neutral and very low in distortion. Is feedback an issue with it? I can’t say, but I’d be curious to know what others think. I suppose some would say for a system like mine especially, that you should banish all traces of it.

Well.... only a comparison between the Ayre VX-R Twenty and the Vandersteen M7-HPA possible in my system and that is somewhat problematic because of the external filter required for the Ayre and a cable change I made to AQ wild Blue Yonder ( necessitated by mono blocks )...

the other amps are single ended and in the case of the Bryston underpowered for the task and I am not going to buy a SE Model 7 high pass filter to do a test for them nor the 400a.  Any excellent Vandersteen amp dealer will have the needed gear and a wide variety of amplifiers to try :-)

i am not much of a review writer, but I will put some summary thoughts together...stay tuned...

That's awesome earth tones.  Can't wait to hear your thoughts.  What is the rest of your system?

Pass is all over the place from what I have heard.  It depends on which line of theirs you are listening to.  Most are a bit warmer and very nice.  Good dynamics and a fair amount of detail.

Ayre also changes a bit depending on which model.  The 20 series takes them to a different level in my book.  They are detail monsters and can be a bit let warm than the Pass amps.  They are very very fast and match up well with most speakers.  Some feel they are too neutral, but I like that with many speakers.  I personally enjoy how 'fast' they sound and how much detail they give you.

Sounds like the Vandy's are a bit of both.  Musical, fast, engaging, large sound stage or smaller if that's what the signal calls for.  I'm sure Jim will have a much better review, lol. ;) 

@tomic601 ,
How would you describe the differences between the Pass, Ayre and Vandersteen amps?
I have never heard the Pass or Vandy amps and am curious as to how they perform.
Bob

@earthtones congrats, how wonderful!!!!! Enjoy the music !!!!!

I just put in an order for a pair! It’s going to be a long next three weeks.

@bdp24  Eric the DMM Buddy is sublime, I will post up complete thoughts later this weekend over in the Music section, you know where I hang out 99% of the time....

I have a friend who wasn't 100% about the amps for the first month or so. Said they are really good, but maybe a touch too laid back for him.  Then I spoke with him last week and he said that they are so good, that it took him time to truly realize what they are doing it and how.  He said that once they fully burned in, that he fell in love with them. Said they are better than any of the under 35k amps he's had and he hears a lot of gear on a daily basis.  

To me, that's telling.

This is from Rick who owns Audio Alternative in Ft Collins, CO:

Johnny winters sessions off Hot Winter Blues:   Mannish Boy ...  you have to listen for Johnny screaming at Muddy to play harder.  Just freaking awesome.  Hard album to find, but worth it.  Great stuff.

hi Pete, I might be the only guy on the planet with Vandersteen, Nelson Pass ( 400a ) and Bryston power amps, and I certainly get musical joy out of each...

in musing about this thread, i think scale is almost completely irrelevant when a designer seeks to push the state of the art. IF scale was such a big concern the high end as we know it would certainly not exist.  Its clear to me that RV can afford any amplifier and he has access to some if the best certainly he tends to show with Brinkmann, ARC, Aesthetix, DAG, Ayre and VTL, but certainly there are others. My understanding is he built the 7 because he wanted more. The 5 is an attempt to bring the price down and deliver most of the 7 capability. Is it a niche product ? with absolute certainty. Is it sweet sounding with Quattro, etc..sure. Ultimate value is in the eye of the beholder.

back to the music, I got an absolutely fantastic direct metal master Buddy Miller disc to spin....

Tomic, that's the part that most don't realize.  Richard is one of those guys who is so innovative, yet doesn't really share too much of what he's doing.  He just feels like folks need to audition and then make up there minds rather than worry about etc engineering.  Heck, even the cabinet inside a cabinet was pretty innovative.  I never realized who much goes into his products until I was 'taught' by Richard and Rutan at Audio Connection.  

It's pretty cool stuff.  I'd still love for him to offer your choice of fully active speakers or semi active (as they are now).  I know he loves the idea of fully active.  Electronics manufacturers don't though lol...

but in my travels round the globe, the one thing that Crushes, absolutely crushes scale is innovation.....

small stuff like no emitter resistor, five parts in the signal path....
a radiator and liquid cooling for rock solid bias...built in HRS isolators 128 v DBS, etc..

I would love to get out to Cali and visit his home.  Road trip?  lol....  

@gdnrbob yes, he runs his own design at home, i have heard it  w Ayre MX-R so a bit dated but it is awesome and when I heard it was not the new circuit Dean and he came up with....

BTW did you see the pair of MXR-R twenty for $14 k ?

@ctsooner ,
Did Richard ever mention building a preamp?
It seems like a good move after all the hard work in designing speakers and amps.
B

I do love how Richard pays so much attention to detail.  He's a frugal guy (like me) and cares about value...He is one of the few to give value at all price levels.  Aesthetix and Ayre are two others.  Many do, but not at the most of the price levels. That's very hard to do. Can't wait to see a pre amp, lol...;) 

OK let’s cover liquid cooling in some detail.... and frankly the reviewers are iMO a bit remiss in missing MANY of the hyper unique innovations in the amps... but the performance of many circuits and devices is temperature dependent and in particular drives the amount of bias needed. IF you look at my virtual system page ( poverty bay sound ) you will see a rare under the hood photo of the M7 and the cooling collar - physical heat sinking is SLOW and results in the heat sink lagging or leading the device or sinking BACK to the device. Hence coolant/pump/radiator solution and bias is rock steady independent of load so the amp sounds the same at any volume or transient...... complex , ya, for a purpose, yes!!!! Now let’s talk attention to details that matter .. if you own an Aesthetix or ARC product you know you can defeat the display for better sound due to the digital chips causing hash.. the M7 and M5 have a complex analog regulator circuit to manage pump speed for coolant and bias. Would been easy to buy an off the shelf chip to do that and SQ would suffer...

enjoy the music and the journey 

jim

@stewart0722 why consider Vandersteen speakers using your logic ? Lots of db available for a whole lot less $$$ with a set of Peavy PA speakers. Bryston is high $ per watt vs Crown , etc.... 
quality per $ = value is the point.
bryston has economic scale for ampliers Vandersteen will never have. Also Vandersteen hand solder because they believe it sounds better than wave solder or SMD.... lots of subtle design and execution differences.
btw my mobile recording rack has a pair of Bryston monoblocks, fine amplifier for it’s intended purpose.

👍

@blaven2 November 2019

By the way-just went to the newstand to get Stereophile to read that review-what month is it in? Is it November??

Regarding cost of amps, liquid cooling, and wattage. 
I don’t think it is as simple as a linear equation with cost directly proportionate to wattage. There’s more to an amp then maximal wattage output. 
Cooling an amp is an issue. Pass amps are no doubt great but can be huge w all the heat sinks and do run hot. There may be a number of reasons he chose liquid cooling but one advantage is keeping size down and avoiding noise of fans or bulk of heat sinks. It may also afford other proprietary tech and design choices we are not privy too that might generate more heat than other amp designs. It could just be a gimmick, but that has not been Vandersteen’s MO — very against his design principles. 
About 10 years ago I learned a lot about liquid cooling for computers and server centers and even military tech. It has some cool applications and can cool far better and faster than other techniques. So who knows- but it is unlikely to be a gimmick. 

Per my last post, I haven't heard the Lamm monos or Vandersteen M-5HPA, but now knowing the price difference, I concur the Vandersteen amps are a great value by comparison and I'm sure they sound great. I'm looking forward to listening to them the next time I go to Stereo Unlimited in San Diego. Maybe somewhere down the road, RV might make a nice affordable (for me anyway) integrated amp to power my Treo CT's.

It's still pretty crazy to think that any product in audio can even compete with anything costing twice as much.

I have always been a fan of Vandersteen speakers, but I do find it bizarre that you need to liquid cool a pair of 60,000.00 solid state amps that are only putting out 300 watts.  Bryston and Pass can produce triple this without any liquid cooling and at 1/3rd the price.......

As to the smaller one, same story......I can buy a pair of Bryston 7bsst3s or a Pass X350.8 for less that churn out twice the wattage.....for the same $ in the case of Pass and far less in the case of Bryston

Not saying they're not excellent....not saying they're not the ideal match for Vandersteen speakers.....just saying that I cannot see any probability of any sane consumer paying this kind of money per watt if they were looking at an amplifier on it's own merits, not part of a high pass solution for a certain speaker.....

I think JA addresses it nicely saying each amp has strengths, he prefers the Lamm at 2X the cost ( $31k )
I have heard Lamm products before in a variety of systems and they are quite good and hyper well engineered and robustly built. An amp that comes close at half the price ( think of it as getting the Quattro CT for free) is quite an achievement. Richard is hyper frugal and efficient, everything must earn its way into the product.
my buck fifty...

All of audio is subjective.  Lamm makes some nice stuff.  That amp is north of 27k.  That's a huge difference in cost and shows what a great value the Vandy amp truly is.  I'll personally go with the 15k amp if it's close to the 27k plus amp.  As I said, audio is subjective as we all know and love.  

Curious about the Stereophile Quatro Ct/M-5HPA review. It seems that John Atkinson slightly preferred his Lamm M1.2 amps. Are these amps (Lamm M1.2's) actually better than the Vandy amps, or is it just Mr. Atkinson's preference? Don't know the price difference between the two. Not trying to start an argument here. Was just wondering....

agree. just listen.  I also agree on using the better high pass.  Mine was built into the Ayre integrated and they used the better parts.  

But I will comment a bit further, the M5 amp and Quattro CT are reviewed and measured in this month Stereophile.JA keeping amps to review as stand alone as the high pass is switchable.

RV calls his approach an “ unfair advantage “ in that he can optimize the amp to work with a known load ( his speaker) and avoid the issues with trying to build an amp flat to zero and also allow for some additional features unique to his shared DBS patent like 128 V
non technical ???? Just freakin listen :-)))

ah.....