Upgrading form Pass integrated amplifier to a better one
Hello,
Currently I have a PASS INT-250 integrated amplifier . The Pass INT-250 is a very good integrated (in my system it was overall better than Plinius Hiato, Gamut D150se, Mark Levinson 535, Vitus RI-100, Accuphase E-470 and some others) but I can't get rid of the feeling that I miss some explosiveness (drum kicks for example) and micro details.
I know that its not the speakers. The new Sonus faber tradition I have are much more open, dynamic and airy than previous Guarneri Evos, Elipasas SE and Amati Anniversarious I used to own. And before buying them I auditioned the Serafinos with Audio Research separates and it was the amazing combo. But I really prefer not to go the separates road ( ICs, power cords and space contribute to financial constrains also) and even so I like the combo of Pass and Serafinos overall but from time to time looking for some better integrated on the market.
Currently I presented with a good opportunity to buy latest Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated or latest just released Accuphase E-650. No possiblilty to demo them, so I am asking here on the forum if anybody can comment if Gryphon Diablo 300 or Accuphase E-650 will be better integrated than Pass INT250 overall and
especially in terms of dynamics, micro details and harmonics.
Any advise and opinion would be very appreciated.
My system: Esoteric K-05x, Pass INT-250, Sonus Faber Serafinos, all cabling are the Shunyata Sigmas.
Room is 12" wide by 17" long. Listen mostly acoustic jazz and chamber classical on low to moderate levels.
I apologize for the long delay regarding on the Boulder 865. I think it is a fantastic amplifier, and for the price, it is a giant killer. I was talked into the Boulder 865 by a dealer. I had actually wanted a Boulder 1010/1060 and the dealer insisted that 1) the 1000 series was being replaced and 2) That the money to invest in the next series would be better used on other components. I still think I want separates, but he might not have been wrong. Investing in top quality cables, balanced power, and an exceptional digital source have all contributed to the excellent music. Even when I hear a 1010/1060 combination, I think it is not that much better than what I have (given all the upgrades i made in balanced power-- the single most noticeable upgrade-- and signal/power cables). Not to mention many of the new integrated amplifiers are truly spectacular.
The Boulder is a spectacular instrument to convey what is on the recording. The boulder 865 is plays only what it is fed, it does not cover it up, it does not add anything, it does not take away anything. It simply amplifies the signal. And it is dead quiet. For example on Laurence Hobgood’s "First Song" the piano notes not only sound real, but have the power and decay as if I went over to the Steinway and played the song. The base, arguably the star of the track, was perfect. The plucking had the metallic sound and body, down to the vibrations. The rest of the track is perfect. The spacing between the performers is exceptional. That means the soundstage is great. It is not as layered as say my Viva, but that is a different system with different set of speakers, cables, and speakers.
Moving on to pop music, the 865 is equally good. On Razorlight’s Wire to Wire the melodic rock song comes alive with clarity, detail, and accuracy. The piano notes ring true, the voices come alive, with a sense of space and accuracy that very few other amplifiers can do. The drums sound great, the snare drum sounds eerily real. Classical music is just as strong, clear, accurate, and open.
The buid quality is top notch. It is a Boulder amplifier. The remote is awesome, the casing is great. They saved costs, clearly, but leaving off the trademark heatsinks. You know what though? It doesn't matter. it looks like a Boulder and if it made it more affordable, then its worth it!
I do not like many of the audiophile terms, to be fair, I really do not know what it all means. What I can tell you is that the amplifier is open, meaning the instruments, voices, and placement is as open as one can imagine. Is the 1100 or the 2100 series better? I am sure. But with the balanced power the 865 is extremely close to the 1060.
So am I happy? Yes, I am very happy. Have I considered selling it and upgrading? Yes. I have thought about moving to the Gryphon 300, which you are talking about. I have not heard it and I worry that its not a step up but a step sideways. I also worry that it is a bit darker than the Boulder and I am not sure that will work my system. I have considered the Vitus sia-025 as well, but again I have not heard it in my system or with equipment like mine. I have considered moving up within the Boulder range and if I find the right opportunity, I might very well do that. I have a Viva Solista Mk III in my library and its great as well, different than the boulder, but conveys the signal in a very organic way. I am lucky that I get to enjoy the best of solid state and the best of tubes. I am not sure though that even my Viva would best my boulder in that system. Other great systems I have heard just did not wow me the way that my system continues to make me happy.
The other thing to remember is that the boulder is great in my set up with the equipment I have, I have heard Boulder sound bad with other cables, and have heard great systems with other amplifier designers that sound like dreck in my system. For example the DartZeel just sounded plain bad (the CTH 8550) in my main system. It sounded as though it was underpowered. I have heard the same DartZeel in other systems and it sounded great... and the separates can also be excellent.
The only other shout out I want to suggest is that the Core Power Technologies Equi-Core 1800 was transformational in my system. I rarely give product shout outs but it really quieted the whole system down and really made the 865 sound more similar to a 1060. Would the 1060 sound even better? Sure, but I do not have one in home to test and the 865 is dangerously close. Even my professional musician friends could barely tell the difference.
Philip O’Hanlon from On Higher Note is the NEW USA distributor for Gryphon audio products. I know Philip and he is very consultive and helpful. I also found the links below for your review:
Two integrated amps I have personally heard in depth a bit better then the very good Pass Labs ,are both from Denmark, The superb Virus audio ,they make 2 models. Perrota consultants I believe still is s delear for them. Gryphon another great product ,I do not think any distribution in the U.S
Due to a horrible review ,that was totally untrue . As with many reviewers they assume the unit is fully run in. Which BTW I totally feel the MFG should cover this to prevent dumb Things like that from happening. Long story short it totally ruined the little bit of support It had and since then he has stayed mainly in the European market. Having owned a Hifi store and heard these integrated amps know they are better then most separates. Expensive Yes but built to premium standards throughout. The same can be said about Vitus.and power Doubles down to 2 ohms.Gryphon has a smaller model out now.also Accuphase makes a lower power 150wpc which is Excellent.
I believe these amps could do much better with more efficient speakers. These SF are not what I personally consider efficient speakers. They need some power, and i have noticed on several speaker models that the Pass, which are excellent amps, struggle to give the dynamics - I know exactly your feeling about that aspect, as I am a big fan of dynamics. Now again for dynamics especially, these Accuphase wont do it any better than the Pass. There are many choices out there, but you are on something good here - if you have the opportunity for the Gryphon Diablo 300, I think you would have it all there and a great match for the SF - amazing stuff !!! Keep us posted
Denon1, I highly recommend the Gryphon product's, the dealer you have is spot on with description of the sound, post your impression's here are email me,🎼🎶🎵
denon1, I have Neptune interconnects and like them a lot too. But I am going to give a try to an almost unknown in the US brand - Tchernov Cable from Russia. Vladimir Lamm uses them now with his amps, and some Germans are completely crazy about them. I won't try their best, something in the middle. This should be interesting. One thing that Gryphon does is that it doesn't try to imitate anything, least of all the sound of tube amplifiers. You may agree or disagree with the Flemming's interpretation of how the sound should be, but his designs are original.
I went back to the Gryphon room FOUR SEPARATE TIMES at the last RMAF. The Diablo 300 was driving a pair of their $52k speakers. The source was their $9k CD player. To my ears it was the best sound at the show.
Yup. Check out the misc. section of this forum, I posted Gryphon prices there. They did reply next day. Diablo 300 is $16k, optional phono is $2.2, optional dac is $6k or so, I think.
I demoed Mark Levinson 585 and Vitus RI-100. My pass int-250 is better than both of those to my ears. The Levinson was too polite anD Vitus too hi-fi ish sounding, not my thing. The Vitus SIA-025 is the one that checks all boxes, but lack of US service and low power (with lower efficiency speakers bass may not be his strong attribute) and price steered me away.
Inna, agree with you on theimportance of cables.i happen to learn that cables are should be considered as another important component of the overall system. Currently all Shunyata sigma power cables and latest alpha speaker cables have been doing a very good job. The Shunyata alpha speaker cables bested my favorite Purist audio Neptune speaker cables that I liked a lot.
@jlaz tell us more about Boulder 865 while we’re waiting for denon1’s Diablo 300 update. Gryphon, Boulder and Vitus were on my short list when I was shopping for an integrated. I ended up with Vitus. Auditioned Diablo and 300. But never had a chance to listen to Boulder.
What about the Boulder 865. It’s a great integrat at an excellent price. It’s dead quiet and is very revealing. I’ll write more in a bit, but have to run an errand.
denon1, I envy you, that amp should be a beast with finesse. Yes, please tell us your impressions but after at least 100 more hours of burning in. I have no idea how well your cables will work with the Gryphon. How long do your cables have to be ? Interconnects, speaker and power cords. I am asking to figure out how expensive the replacement might be even if you have no intention of doing it right away. At this level you usually try to match very precisely, this doesn't mean that only top of the line would do, in fact, I don't think so.
Folks, thanks a lot for your help. Good advises on the starting a new thread, but no need for it , as AudioTroy said, , the deal is too good to pass, next week I’ll pull the trigger on Gryphon. when I get it, I post my humble one on gryphon vs pass integrates. Based on the Gryphin dealer who’s opinion I learned to trust, the gryphon is richer, more detailed an dynamic with sweet highs and better bass. Considering that Pass Int-250 is no slouch either, the Diablo me be my last integrated to buy for a long time.
@denon1 Philip O’Hanlon from On Higher Note is the new distributor for Gryphon audio products. I suggest you call him for advice and for the name of a Gryphon retailer near you. I know Philip and he is very consultive and helpful. Please give him a call to discuss your options. I also found these links below for your review: https://onahighernote.com/gryphon/
@audiotroy Thanks. Gryphon audio products are now being distributed in the USA by On Higher Note and Philip might be looking for new retailers. Maybe the Audio Doctor NJ should contact him to be a Gryphon retailer. I have never heard the Gryphon, the Vitus, the Hegle360, T+A products and have no interest in replacing my Mola Mola Kaluga Mono Block Power Amplifiers.
You are making a lot of sense. The real issue is that Gryphon has been unavailabe for years therefore trying to find a person who has actually heard one is nearly impossible at least in the States, in Europe it is another matter.
As per Vitus vs Gryphon the less expensive Vitus is not in the same class, while their uper end models are more expensive for less real power even though they have very high headroom.
Personally I have always thought Vitus to be a bit dark while the Gryphon is a more balanced product.
If the deal is good, just go for it, you will be very happy they make excellent products.
+1. I agree with kalali’s post above that you should start a new Audiogon tread on the Gryphon Diablo 300 Integrated Amplifier. This post is giving you MANY recommendations on other integrated amplifiers, that it seems, you are not interested in. You stated above that "you are only interested in the Gryphon Diablo 300 Integrated Amplifier”.
I do not believe this tread is giving the information you need to make a decision. A new Audiogon tread only on the Gryphon Diablo 300 Integrated Amplifier might might result in getting the information you need.
Based on the large number of amplifier recommendation above, as you can see, there is no one integrated amplifier that is the best and recommended amplifier. I suggest you locate your nearest Gryphon retailer and listen for your self. I guarantee you that for every person that likes the Gryphon, an equal number will probably not. I suggest you make your own decision based on what you hear and like and not what someone else recommends.
This is a very strange hobby because of the wide variety of opinions and recommendations on the many different products. I have listened to amplifiers that other people love and I do not. In addition, I sometimes agree with what my retailer recommends and sometimes not. I read the reviews, sometimes, but they do not dictate what I buy. I have learned to make my own decisions based on what sounds good. Unfortunately, I sometimes make a mistake that is expensive but I sell the item and buy something else. I hope this above helps.
I went theough a similar journey earlier this year and I think I understand the why’s behind your short list. In fact, you’ve shared the list of amps that you’ve auditioned along with your impression. What you’re looking for is a small group of ‘elite’ integrated amps. I saw a few suggestions for the alternatives and I don’t think you’d be interested those. In fact, I owned some of those brands myself and I ended up with upgrading to my current amp. Keep us posted on what you end up with purchasing and share your experience is.
Sorry Denon, the intent was not to push the product, but find out why a similar product that may be better for you is not on the discussion or even being considered?
As these two brands are more similar then dissimilar that was what is driving our curiousity. Each of these two companies is widly respected and each brings a little something else to the table.
As per trade in's many dealers give generous trade in deals.
The Diablo 300 is definately one of the best products of its kind on the market, and you will be hard pressed to find anything which is better, different yes, better no.
You should feel consident that you will enjoy the piece, as we said earlier these two brands are among the best sounding products on the market and both represent what we feel the best value for dollar for uber high performing gear.
Honestly if we didn't get T+A first and love the brand, we would have pursued a Gryphon dealership so if you are so convinced go get a Diablo you will not be unhappy with it it is a great piece.
Hey Denon 1, If you don't know what to buy, hire mariachi band. Great bass, transparency. 4D sound stage if you place them in all four corners. You can also regulate the warmth of the sound with the heater and the AC. For the micro details you can always use magnifying glass. Plus, still money in the pockets since you don't need anaconda cables. I almost forgot, great harmonics too. Especially after a case of beer.
People are trying to help you by sharing their experiences with products/models that you might not have heard. If you're set on a particular brand/model, then start a new thread with Gryphon 300 in the title. All that said, FWIW, I thought the Hegel360 sounded excellent with the SF Elipsa.
I understand that all other options seem to be off the table but I would urge you to consider a mint used Dartzeel CTH 8550 integrated amp. The road would stop here. Exudes Swiss uber build quality and sound competitive with very high end separates. Lots of power with great refinement. Read reviews in Tone Audio and a fairly recent Positive Feedback review. You can find used in the 12k range and they are constructed to outlast most of us. The designer Herve D is quite renowned, totally accessible and a gentleman. Contact Jonathan Tinn at Blue Light Audio if you have even a smidgeon of interest. I have no personal interest other than shedding light on one of the great pieces of audio gear that would absolutely light your fire. Oh, I love the color which kind of implies the rich but neutral sound. FWIW
Dave and Troy, please don't use my thread to push your product. You recommended this once, there is no need to go into details again and again. At this point I'm interested only in the opinion of the people who actually heard Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated. All other options off the table.
Inna I would also add in our tests vs a big set of MBL, Krell MRA a $120k Krell Massive pure Class A monoblocks that were the magnum opus of Krell, a set of $90k Boulder Amps, Thrax gear and CJ gear, Devialet 400 watt Monos, the T+A also come out on top vs most of the other pieces and in some ways out performed the Boulder and in other ways the Boulder was better, but we were also comparing a $90k set of Boulder Mono blocks vs a T+A stereo amp and power supply for $32k so the T+A was at a major disadvantage.
So yes when you test T+A they are also pretty freaking amazing sounding pieces of equipment.
Have you heard a T+A product? Gryphon and T+A are competitors in Europe and there are those who have acutally compared the T+A product to the Gryphon in the case of the battle of the uber intergrateds and have chosen the T+A product which has a few advantages over the Gryphon. and the Gryphon also has a few advantages as well so it come down to a whole number of factors.
These are two of the world's best products I have nothing but respect for Gryphon and I have heard their products and they are outstanding but to make the claim that Gryphon is the best is ridiculous, they are among the best but in the case of reference grade electronics it will all come down to what you prefer in terms of looks, features, sound quality, wattage, and how it mates with your gear.
If you read the TAS review Mr. Taffel compared an older HV series integrated to $120k worth of CH Precision gear and came away very impressed up to the point that he was having difficulty determining which was which and again, $45k D'agastino piece vs $21.5K T+A integrated and boom same thing so obviously this is a brand to be reckoned with also considering they are the single largest high end brand in Germany must mean that their equipment is also extremely good.
What I find ironic is with all the positive press rave reviews in TAS, Soundstage, Positive Feedback guys like Inna aren't saying hey what about this brand too?
I would never make a statement that T+A or Gryphon is better than Dartzeel, or Vitus, or CH or Goldmund it will all come down to what you value and what you like and of course what you are exposed to, but again, if T+A equipment wasn't absolutely world class they would hardly have grown to be the size of the company that they are.
Hi denon1 if you consider tube amp options also. I own Allnic T-2000 25th Anniversary integrated amp which it is newer version of old t-2000 . Using 4 KT150 output tubes put out 100 watts nice tube sound . I match with 89 db 4 drivers sealed enclosure design speaker. Allnic drive nicely and I think will be very good match with your S F speakers. Allnic is amazing amp. I am very happy to say that Dont over look.
Inna, let me clarify, for a Gryphon deal, I am not getting a 20% off, but instead was offered outstanding trade in price quote for my pass int-250. Gryphon don't give 20% discounts.
Gryphon makes their own mostly or pure silver cables, these should be the first ones to try. Of course, there might be an even better match depending on taste and speakers, probably more expensive if there is one too.
If I remember right, Gryphons are burnt in at the factory for 75 hours. Flemming recommends to play them for additional 100 hours before critical listening. I think, he means just that - play time not stand-by time.
I am the first one in fact to recommend auditioning Gryphon to anyone who can make use of it and can afford it. Any Gryphon. As I heard from many sources, there is no better solid state equipment, just different, and not many can match Gryphon's performance, especially big Gryphon's. I don't think that Swiss integrateds could match the Diablo 300' dynamics, punch and possibly clarity as well. Swiss are also overpriced, like Accuphase. 20% off for Gryphon is indeed a great deal. Optional DAC is quite expensive, though. And generally speaking, Flemming Rasmussen of Gryphon is widely respected. Gryphons are very reliable and long lasting, as far as I know. They are now establishing the limited dealership network in the US, so anyone interested can ask the distributor, On A Higher Note.
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