Dear Alec,
Is there a reason why you have tried the matless approach yourself?
Rather than using the Millenium mat or fancy alternatives like the Zanden, why not try the Gold Spot Ringmat with the latex underlay. It's a (relatively) cheap investment which may transform your listening.
(I recall you saying back on Day 1 that you wanted to relieve the "dark sounding" tendency and enhance the soundstage? Well, the above hybrid combination delivers exactly that. In doing this, you should realise, you may have morphed from a "damped" listening enthusiast to the "undamped" philosophy... ;^)
A platform of the quality of that which you are using would enable an even bigger difference to be heard. ;^)
Final recommendations are to avoid sharing the T/T shelf with anything else and position the phono stage on a shelf under the T/T using a short phono cable (say 0.5m dual midi-coax with Earth). If you can get the motor controller onto the bottom i.e. 3rd, shelf so much the better. Also pay attention to the dressing of the phono cable as any incidental contact will affect tonearm and cart behaviour as it does act as an energy conduit. If it does contact anything, introducing a small amount of interference (don't laugh - a toothpick) as it passes over the back edge will be enough to prevent it coupling directly to the resonance of the shelf itself. I've found this to be easily identifiable in blind tests and indeed this item alone can decrease the tendency of the turntable to be "dark" or "leaden" sounding.
Doing the same "decoupling" trick with the motor cable/s is less important but you may wish to try it anyway?
Decoupling the phono stage itself may not be necessary as they often sound better without any fancy mechanical supports. Much of this depends on whether the shelves are multi-stage spiked tripods (or alternatively suspended supports). Personally, I didn't see the point in trying to turn an unsuspended table into a suspended one but many seem to recommend this so I suppose that must also be considered an option(?)
Apologies that I haven't worked my way through this thread yet and am unaware if anyone else has made similar recommendations which are very simple and virtually free(!) or indeed if you've already done most of what I've suggested above?
Anyway, you can afford to cherry pick any advice you feel is easily actionable.
All the best, |
Alec,
I had an AC-1 that I have upgraded to AC-3 using the 3 motor BN pod and BN feet. I was already VERY happy with the base AC-1 but can tell you unequivocally that yes the TT gets even better with upgrades. More drive, resolution, bigger soundstage, etc. I hope to add the BN platter in the future.
Why did I not just go directly to a Black Night? Well cost for one thing. The upgrades have allowed me to go in steps. The second reason is frankly that the rest of my system would not do justice to a full BN.
My current system isn't even remotely close to the performance envelope of my current AC-3 configuration for that matter. I have heard the AC-3 deliver absolutely jaw dropping, head shaking performances in Jeff Catalano's (Highwater Sound) home system so I know that the table is capable of so much more.
Start with the 3 motor BN pod and go from there.
-Ed |
I have a Raven AC and upgraded it this way :
- BN Battery PSU : great !
-3 motors in'a round : great again.
Today I ordered the BN platter, the new Mat and the new bearing.
So After that I will have upgraded in a fanatic way as Mosin told. Hopeit will be great. |
I changed the phonoamp to the Dynamic Sounds Associates (DSA). Interesting experience.
TW Acustic comes with a Millennium mat. Has anyone tried playing the LP directly on the copper platter, without any mat? |
Triangle Art Reference SE - $28K
http://triangleart.net/referencese1/ |
|
I have had an ac3 and i upgraded in this order,
3 motor pod, realy nice improvement.
Then the black night feet, nice improvement but not as dramatic as motor upgrade.
bn platter, is the most significant improvement, the darkness is gone and the soundstage is much bigger. Bass is better defined and digs deeper.
So, i think these upgrades are great but you must look at the cost of replacing the tt with another unit or a blk night tt
Then it starts to mske sense. |
Hi Alec,
Glad you are winning :) The SME is a great tonearm.
If you are ever feeling reckless and feel like like using the other arm pillar you should try the Phantom ;^)
All the best, |
Thanks Win.
Thanks Monnglum, my AC3 is still sitting via Stillpoint feet on a 35lb TAOC platform placed on a 3 shelf TAOC rack. I haven't tried other platforms like MinusK or Vibraplane which were suggested by a few folks.
My new arm/cart did change the sound though. They are flatter and more neutral than the da Vinci arm/cart. |
Dear Alec,
Having read some of the early responses I think the idea of taking an unsuspended table and converting it into a suspended one by means of the support seems to defeat the object of the exercise ;^)
I know that this suggestion might go against the grain but assuming that you are applying the vinyl directly to the copper platter, have you considered trialling a few mats?
One reason I say this is that the mech impedance of the copper platter is dissimilar to vinyl and you may get a more acceptable result by improving the match?
Speaking from experience I was in a similar position to that which you describe. It seemed like sacrilege to add to what should be a perfect interface but I cured the problem by first of all adding the basis of the Ringmat Support System i.e. a hybrid mat consisting of a thin latex Base Mat plus the "Gold spot" Ringmat.
Further to this I also notice that dressing the cables to prevent undesirable vibration being passed into the T/T was critical. (In fact it is critical to suspended tables too but possibly more so here)
The stand I use is multi-stage (3 shelves), tri-spiked on each level (so no micro-rocking) and made not from maple but oak. It isn't massively heavy and the resonant frequency isn't too low - so it will act as a mechanical filter when situated on a concrete floor.
The spikes ensure that only a tiny proportion of vibration is passed from one level to the next and this shrinks correspondingly as you progress up the stack. By the time residual vibration reaches the T/T it has passed through 5 levels of minimal coupling (if you include 2 within a set of Stillpoints.)
Whatever is left we would hope would be dealt with by the T/T's own mass.
This basically leaves airborne feedback and the Supply/Tonearm cables as the final sources of feedback.
Airborne feedback is almost untreatable apart from a separate room or moving the T/T further away from the speakers. The T/T should handle this ok provided it isn't mounted directly on top of the speaker. ;^)
Mech cable resonance on the other hand is treatable. It's worth playing around with this factor as I mentioned earlier.
Hope my experience proves helpful in some way. |
Alec,
As you know, there are those who constantly tweak to a fanatic point. Those guys try everything a manufacturer has to offer, and Raven owners are no exception. I know several of them, and from what I can gather they all disagree on the merits...like always. :-D
I suppose you'll have to see for yourself, right?
Best,
Win
. |
My Raven AC-3 has remained the same although I changed the tonearm to SME V12, and the cartridge to My Sonic Lab Signature Gold.
I bought the AC-3 back when it was first introduced and was hot. My dealer told me it practically sold by itself. I gather TW is less newsy these days while many other new brands and models getting reported at shows and reviews...I am still fine with my AC-3. The quality has held up well. I am wondering though, that since TW is offering upgrades (Black Knight feet and motor and what not), whether any AC-3 owner has taken up any upgrades and can share their experience. |
That's another whole can of worms. But if the top surface of the platter is already copper, all that you would be doing by adding a copper mat is to increase the effective total mass of the platter. Sonic qualities should not change much. (Famous last words.) |
Not sure if there is a specific recommendation on mat type or need for it in the first place. I have tried the millenium mat extensively as well as the boston audio. My ears tell me no mat is better than either of these two.
I am now wondering if increasing the copper platter thickness by using one of those copper mats would be even better.
Andrew |
Aoliviero, Difference between your Raven AC and Alectiong's Raven AC = 2 extra motors on his. That's why I suggest he should try driving the platter with only one motor. And you are correct, platter mat can make just the kind of subtle difference that Alectiong is looking for, but I thought the Raven AC platter was meant to be used with no mat at all, or a supplied special mat. And who could argue about the necessity to set VTA, VTF, alignment, etc carefully? |
Another way to look at this is the following. If the
table did really have the signature you are describing, then you would tend to hear that to a large extent independent of changing some of the other tonearm/cartridge and system parameters. Well you might say that through "system synergy" you might be able to strike the right balance. In this case, if you were correct in the TW signature (which I don't think you are) you would have to get an oppositely colored piece of equipment to compensate for this. I don't think that would be wise.
The table is a lot more neutral than you think.
Based on some of Raul's points, I have been experimenting with platter mat. in fact, no mat at all. Try this and you will be surpirsed. also try lowering your VTF. My guess is you are too high.
I get very dynamic, open sound with detailed and extended bass without any overhang or sluggishness. I can easily get what you're hearing by using a mat, too high VTF and tow low SRA.
Happy experimenting. |
I assume that you are getting a lot more bass and sound staging from you CD player so you are sure that you are not limited by your amplifier preamplifier and speakers.
|
Allectiong
The Raven-AC-1 that i have been using over the last few years is an incredibly engaging TT.this is a result of its neutrality and ability to manifest the micro and macrodynamics of the music. it really is a neutral table and chances are you are hearing something that is not optimum.
Try relooking at your cartridge vtf and vta, vtf being a huge factor. Sounds like you may on the high side. Your tonearm may be to low. Try playing with vta.
Try placing record directly on the platter. You may be hearing resonances introduced by a mat. Make sure you compensate for vta if the thixkness of the mat is large.
As dgad mentions, optimize azimuth and anti skate.
Try experimenting with all these parameters. These have major impacts on the sound.
I was lsitening to my system friday and was amazed at how easily the Raven AC allows the music to come through once everything is as optimum as possible. Lightnin hopkins, john lee hooker,sonny/brownie, muddy where right there. The energy they were puttin down was NOT lost by the Raven ac-1.
You will get a lot of suggestions. Start with the basics. Make broad adjustments to understand the ramifications of the range of settings. Then fine tune. I dont think the table is the issue; however you may want to try one motor. Also, make sure you have the new motor controller. Big improvement.
Pardon me if you are seasoned in these matters and you have tried all of this.
Andrew |
A cow will never be worth the price of a horse. But maybe in a world of blind it will be different.
The typical audiophile will sit in front of his machine and will think
- Yes, that is it. A review winner. Component of the year. I don't hear it, but I spent so much money, it has to be better. the other ones say the same...
The Listener sits in front and thinks
- Man, so much money for such a cheap made unit
The Collector sits in front and thinks
- Yes, it looks good and no matter what is out there, I am the first
The experienced Audiophile sits in front and thinks
- Great. Let's go for Lunch
Times are tough, but modern |
Downunder, perfect!
when it comes to evaluating what might be the right TT for one`s own system - as Alectioning is doing - it is not only a question of technology (drives: DD, idler-drive, thread etc.; motor units, experience of the developer etc.), of quality (built material, oil of bearing etc.), of decoupeling measurements, of surrounding installations (tonearm, cartridge, cable, phono pre etc.) but also of VALUE !
What do I mean? When selling your TT you might be confronted with a used market which doesn´t gives you the value back your TT deserves. In the case of very high rated TTs I made the experience you can sell those instruments to a very small niche of people - but you can!
In the case of TTs between 8000 and 14000 Dollars (crazy world - it is a lot of money) and if the buyer doesn`t agree on the value of your TT (because there are to many in the market or the manufacturer sells new units with large discount)it might become difficult selling your high rated machine.
If I am buying another TT I will look on the VALUE of the TT much more as I used to do. This would be my advise from my recent experiences. |
Thuchan
Yes thanks for asking, nice to know you care - I felt comfortable before & now after your comments.
I think as you would clearly know, having more than one nice turntable gives you a perspective that one can not do everything.
BTW - how many raven's were offered at very good prices :-) |
Downunder, it is very funny. I just described what happend to a friend of mine and people owning a Raven like you feel not comfortable with the fact that this happens at the moment - at least in France. Maybe also with people trying to sell other modern TTs, I don´t know. BTW I do know Thomas very well and have a very good relation to him.
Hope you feel comfortable now!? |
Alectiong,
To get the wall to wall imaging I would suggest as follows: listen to a CD and compare the Vinyl on your TT. Then go back and forth to remember placement positioning etc. Then adjust Anti Skate/Azimuth etc. until the 2 coincide. I have learned to do Anti Skate by ear and once it locks in place the imaging is scary.
As for the Mid Bass bloat, that sounds like a resonance problem. It will also smear the highs and darken the sound. You need to sort out where the resonance is coming from. No matter how good a turntable if you don't have it isolated and maybe have it located in a room node etc you will not get near 50% of what the TT / Front end is capable of. Again I suggest you go back & forth between a well recorded CD/SACD and compare with LP for bass output etc and determine if it is really the turntable or the setup or the tonearm/cartridge or just something elsewhere in your chain. I have listened to some friends very good Analogue front ends where they were lacking one thing or another. They would never believe me until I put in a CD of the same and it was that apparent. Then we would redo the tonearm setup and got most of the way there. What I couldn't do is compensate for the Phono stage which didn't have enough gain. By the way the phono stage can be a big part of the darkness as well (although, I do agree the Raven AC table is slightly warm in comparison to the Black Night - from which I get a bit more detail, and more definition (and hear more problems in my setup - some cartridges just don't cut it anymore). I have had phono stage mismatches with cartridges which would have you condemn a cartridge that in a different system would be excellent. Same for Speaker/Amp combinations. Hope this helps as a turntable upgrade doesn't sound like the solution. |
Hi Alectiong, I just located it. You have some really exceptional gear, I actually use to own the same speakers and those Karan's are suppose to be really nice. I had mine hooked up to various components, VTL 750's, ARC 600's etc.
Those Elrod power cords are getting some very positive postings from others, David has always made great product. I guess if I was in your situation I would re-evaluate my set-up asking myself regarding what you had mentioned prior and when did this happen, as a result to adding what? the TW etc. Possibly stepping back, maybe there is a mismatch somewhere with in the chain, it's the joys of this hobby and getting it all to work, getting the magic!
Others above have allot more experience with the TW product line than myself, I'm a new-bee owner but that being said I did allot of research prior along with listening to allot of other set-ups with a variety of tables, some costing crazy money etc. and in the end decided to make the TW purchase. TW was my preference after hearing all of these different set-ups and never heard what you have described above with any of the TW's set-ups other wise I would have been looking elsewhere. What I found was the arm and cart to make a big difference sonically as I'm sure you already know along with everything else in the chain, phono cable, phono and on.
Just take your time and try not to get frustrated you have a great table, possibly try to connect with some other TW owners and hear their set-ups. Do some traveling if need be, with the money you have invested it would only be a small fraction and you owe it to your self and system. |
Hi Lewm, my system's sonics is better than ever before. Problem is in this hobby, most of us become more critical as we move along. Before the TW, I had a VPI Superscoutmaster and was amazed how much improvement a TT upgrade can make. After I had the TW, I sold off my Weiss Digital transport and DAC (which are highly regarded as I understand), as suddenly, i had little desire to listen to digital. I now have an Ayre CD player but only use it to burn in equipment. As to drive motor, I wouldn't want to mess around modifying it as my TW is still under waranty.
Hi Dev, my associated equipment are posted in one of my earlier threads. However, I just added Elrod Gold Statement power cords for my power amps. The p.c.'s are still brandnew, getting burnt in.
Rgds
alec |
Dear Alectiong, Has your system ever previously given you those qualities which you now say are missing with the Raven AC? If so, was it an analog or digital source that gave you greater satisfaction? I will say that what you are seeking (or what you say is lacking from the Raven presentation) is in the very essence of what distinguishes a great idler-drive or direct-drive implementation from an otherwise great belt-drive one, in my limited experience. However, you might be able to get what you want from the Raven, if you were willing to modify its drive system (one motor with a pinch roller or rim drive; the added noise of the Teres rim drive motor is a trade-off you might find easy to live with). Personally, I never was convinced of the 3-motor approach. I think it is "sand in the public eye". |
Thucan
" Alectioning, what I learned from a friend in France: it is not easy to sell a Raven at the moment. I do not why but many potential buyers my friend contacted were quickly offered nearly new Ravens for a very good price. I have no clue how this could work."
that's a nice thinly veiled, but rather pathetic shot at TW.
Exactly what was the point of this comment?
Even if it was true, I would suspect any expensive turntable may be hard to sell in this current environment. |
Hi Alectiong, what's the rest of your system comprise of, possibly you should be looking somewhere else within the line. |
Hi Ebm, why Black Knight? I haven't heard it but is it fundamentally different from Raven AC in some ways that a cow (albeit a very good one...no intended disrespect to other Raven AC owners please) has become a racing horse? my little dissatifaction with the Raven AC is that in my set up with the associated equipment and TT isolation and room acoustics etc, is that it sounds a little too thick and muscular in tonality, has accentuated mids with a mid bass hump, is darkish sounding, has not as spacious soudstage than I wish for, and the separation of images during complex passages of a full orchestra could be better. Perhaps other Raven AC users dont have these problems, i dont know.
I am trying out some tweaks suggested by postings above. Hope they will help.
Rgds
alec |
"Ain't that the truth. Funny how so many end users find the net result to be simpatico. I am an agnostic, haven't heard it. But I do love my own Lenco L75 with PTP in slate plinth. I am sure you have made an uninformed negative judgement of that as well."
Careful Lew. I believe we are standing in the shadow of a 21st Century Tesla here. ;) |
|
Ain't that the truth. Funny how so many end users find the net result to be simpatico. I am an agnostic, haven't heard it. But I do love my own Lenco L75 with PTP in slate plinth. I am sure you have made an uninformed negative judgement of that as well. |
Using a rim drive will make all efforts for minimizing outside vibration coming towards the platter and thus towards the tracking process obsolete in one single move. |
Alectiong, I agree with your present course of trying to perfect or improve upon what you already own. Along those lines you might want to consider the heretical idea of going backward to only one motor driving the Raven AC. If you go that route, you might also consider the introduction of a passive roller to wrap the drive belt more closely to the circumference of the platter. (For example, take a look at what is done with the new Artemis Labs turntable.) One of the other forum members has made a similar device for use with his VPI turntable, and he is very pleased with the improvement. This strategy reduces belt creep, a bugaboo of belt-drive. A machinist could make the needed part for you. Alternatively, you might consider driving the platter with an outboard idler wheel, a la Teres rim drive. (Dertonearm is sure to jump/dump on that idea, and even I have my reservations about the particular way in which the Teres rim drive was designed, but reports from end users are in general favorable.) These ideas would be in addition to suggestions submitted by others, such as use of Minus K, etc. In any case, I encourage you to "think outside the box". |
Stiltskin, I couldn't even recommend you following my advise.
Neither in selecting the main course nor in high end-audio.
Extremely expensive, not on the menu at all but special ordered, very special spices and only for the very educated and seasoned taste.
I stopped eating meat in the very early 80ies....
Hmm, I take it your talking about a personal culinary delight produced from a vegan? |
Alectiong, Try all the tweaks first then think about getting a Koetsu Coralstone Stereo cartridge and a Koetsu Coralstone Mono cartridge, two Graham Phantom II arms or one arm with two wands and mount your TW...AC-3 on a Minus-K. This is the path I'm thinking about for my TW...AC-3. If this and your tweaks don't work you might think about the mounting your arms and cartridges on a TW Black Knight. Failing that, going another route like the Continuum Caliburn, Cobra and Castellon might be satisfing. Let us know how things go. |
Alectioning, what I learned from a friend in France: it is not easy to sell a Raven at the moment. I do not why but many potential buyers my friend contacted were quickly offered nearly new Ravens for a very good price. I have no clue how this could work. |
Alec,
My best wishes that you get it exactly like you want. That is one of the fun parts of our hobby, and you'll know when it is there. After all, what we do is about music, isn't it?
Regards,
Win |
Dear Mosin,
Actually i have not sold my TW/Grandezza. Trying to tweak it in the mean time.
Simultaneoulsy, I have learnt a lot from the postings which i appreciate very much.
Rgds
alec |
Knotless thead drive not difficult if you know what you are doing. Sorry about the pun.
I used Japanese embroidery silk which worked quite well by thread drive standards but is so far behind the state of the art that I dropped it as a commercial proposition. The fun part was that a huge range of colours is available - I used red, green and yellow and called it natty thread (with apologies to the late Bob Marley). |
Dover - as for the inevitable knot in threads (unless to melt certain special material together). I observed that if the knot is made in a special way, it moves onto the outside of the circle and won't interfere with pulley nor platter anymore. I will make a drawing of the knot and send to you by PN next week - when I have my Wacom board.
By the way - you may too give sewing linen a try. It has some very little stretch left (but only noticeable if the tension is too high anyway...), but features extremely high inner damping and a nice combination of grip and natural slippage (sounds like a contradiction in terms, but it really is that way). It works very good on the RX-5000 and even much higher platter mass.
However - surgical silk (I have way too many PhDs among my friends not giving this a try) is a very good choice too. |
Siltskin, I couldn't even recommend you following my advise. Neither in selecting the main course nor in high-end audio. Extremely expensive, not on the manual at all but special ordered, very special spices and only for the very educated and seasoned taste.
To make things even worse - I stopped eating meat in the very early 80ies........ |
That is the problem and the core misunderstanding between applied physics and taste. A mix-up or inherent error often happening in Audio. Many discussions in audio thought to be about technical or physical issues are in fact about taste, believe and fellowship.
We have seen some posts here lately which did not content one single technical aspect.
But even regarding taste - you know Oscar Wilde's unforgettable phrase.
But I am confident that Dover as well as me would be able to locate the right spot for a gourmet dinner. And we would choose the chef who really knows what he's doing and would not follow the latest hype or up-written advise which has just opened and presents a Cheeseburger with some golden sprinkles as haute cuisine. |
Dover if you and Detonarm went out and had dinner together one evening and the both of you ordered a bowel movement for your main course I for one would not listen to your advise on gourmet cooking. |
Regarding string Drive - my experience with the final audio ( high mass/ac drive ) was a big improvement in stability going from cotton ( slippage and stretch ) to surgical silk.
I'd really like to get a version of this with no knot if possible as I believe the knot is the weakness - anyone got any suggestions.
I also aligned the position of the drive string to be at the bearing point ( this is an inverted bearing design ) - again this seemed to be an improvement.
With regard to torque - my experieicnes using the adjustabe torque on the speed controller of the final are that there is definitely an optimum - the sound is much smoother at the optimum point, ie I go for the highest torque until the sound goes off.
lastly a question for Dover, what do you think of someone dumping a Walker Black Diamond for a refurbished Technics SP10 MKII ?????
My view would be use the money leftover to buy a high mass rigid turntable as mentioned in the threads above. |
Dear Audiofile,
I had hoped so! Now I can go for Christmas preparations...
Have a good time too.
thuchan |
Dearest Thuchan,
Option One is correct as you had hoped. Happy holidays on that.
When he's been doing it for 50 years, I'll give a listen.
Thanks for your kind words. |
Audiofeil, if you do feeling lectured by >Dertonearm`s long explanations you may not draw any positive or additional information for you. In this case you either are more sophisticated in TT design as Dertonearm and the discussion is boring you or you believe in the mysterious of TTs and do not accept any other view. Hope you are refering to option ONE. |
>But that is not my problem. It is totally fine with me.
Cheers,
Dertonarm<<
If it's fine why do you continue the long lectures Herr Blowhard? |
Mosin,
there are many parts in the audio chain. With some of them "quality" can not be judged "objective" in any way, but is a matter of synergy or "taste". Well, a turntable may be a mysterious machine to some. The drive method - and you got me wrong in that point - is not paramount in any way. It is just, that certain technical features which are paramount regarding the ultimate performance of a turntable for phono playback can not be implemented with 2 of the currently in use 3 drive mechanism.
A turntable is no mysterious machine. It is a machine. Nothing else. No voodoo, no secrets, nothing supernatural.
Applying all the physical aspects in a correct - and consequent - way will always result in a very heavy device with a high mass platter and an isolation from mechanic periphery (underground) below 1 Hz resonance frequency.
This device will never come cheap. The drive mechanism will be a logic choice following the high platter mass and the resulting inertia.
I have listened to all turntables which I found worth listening to after inspection of their technical design. I do not believe in philosophy or implementation of "ideas" in turntables. It is all about constructing a machine with consequence. To do so I apply physics without taking into account whether it looks good in the shop or whether it fits a certain price range. Its about performance and consequence. Two things lacking too often in too many fields and minds. And the turntable is NOT a link in a given audio chain. It is the very foundation of the extraction of the audio signal from its mechanical matrix. Looking for synergy or compensation effects here is inconsequent and will means to abandon the search for maximum performance right from the start. What is lost here is never again found.
Others will have different point of views and different approaches and will certainly not share this view in some or all aspects. But that is not my problem. It is totally fine with me.
Cheers,
D. |
