Update from Nordost Heimdall to Frey speaker cable

@jafant I’ve not gotten around to it yet. Will post as soon as I try it. 

The Nordost Lief 3 series has just been released. Considering the Norse series 2 has been out since 2012 I suspect a Norse 3 is coming very soon. IMO this is a reason not to invest in any current Heimdall or Frey cables.

audphile1

I am looking forward in reading more about adding Nordost speaker cable (SP) to your System.  

Happy Listening!

@mgrif 

are you actually suggesting that there’s no difference (other than price) between any cables whatsoever? So, you can use the cheapest lamp cord (or even smaller gauge - no reason to waste copper) and you’re good to go for speaker cables?  

Same for $5 rca cables to connect preamp and amp?

I’m not trying to be snarky - though I get that you’re comfortable with that tone based on your response here and in other threads. I’m actually trying to determine the limit of your observation(s). If expensive cables make no difference, can you go with the lowest cost denominator?  And if not, then what might be the threshold for you?

There are easily measurable differences in conductance, inductance and capacitance among cables. Further - all cables are antennas of some sort - both broadcasting and receiving.

Claiming diminishing returns I understand and I’ll claim the same. However, claiming no difference just isn’t factually true. Differences between poor quality and good quality cables are plainly audible. Differences between two sets of quality cables will be less so, but still audible. 

Many here claim audiophiles exhibit confirmation bias. And, that’s understandable because it truly is a thing. I’m sure many of us (me included) have exhibited it. But the existence of confirmation bias does not mean that no differences exist. It means that we may be predisposed to like something. I’ll acknowledge that it may cause us to conclude we heard something not there, but I would counter that some differences are so easy to hear as to be obvious from another room - or to my wife walking in and asking “did you change something?” without foreknowledge. 

So, I’d politely suggest that if you really hold the view you do, fine, but it’s unnecessary for you to post in a thread where others are attempting to explore ways to improve their systems and are seeking well reasoned opinions from others who may have direct experience to share. I’d gather you do not fall in that camp.

Peace.

Such an excellent response. I praise your writing ability. Much more diplomatic and even keeled than I could be. Of course there was no response from the offender. 

Yeah go take a hike. Great idea. 

mgrif104

"There are easily measurable differences in conductance, inductance and capacitance among cables.

My point is... so do you trust measurement data more than reviews/comments (made by influencers/paid trolls) you find on the internet or in magazines? A good example is this trans-Atlantic cable communications fiction. How much did he get paid...

audiophile1

I do believe cables (not p.c.) do make a difference but don’t have to be stupidly expensive to be a sonically/physically/aesthetically good cable. Do we still need 200 hrs of ’cable burn-in’ and oil lamps like DBS just sit on the cable... praying for a miracle? Recently I’ve discovered it’s an incomplete circuit. i will make a new thread on this topic. Note: i use this term "incomplete circuit" instead of "open circuit"               Or just don't bother and go hiking/fishing

Nordost threads rarely stay on track.

I use Heimdall II wall to speaker. Best to just try, then decide.

One certainty-Nordost level Norse and beyond is a wallet draining exercise. 

@audphile1 +1

He’s a troll. Just ignore him. People like that don’t own anything worthy of discussing here - all they do is envy and try and talk themselves out of even attempting to believe cables make a difference because they don’t or can’t purchase any of the items discussed here.

Like I said, best course of action is to just ignore them and they’ll eventually make a u-turn on the information superhighway and go back to take the ASR exit they missed to rejoin their minions.

@classicrockfan 

of course you’re right that because I don’t personally own the analyzer, the published results of companies like Shunyata and others are invalid. 

No, I don’t know how to do it, but it appears other companies do and it’s my understanding that electrical engineers understand these principles. And that they’re well understood.

I’m not sure what your purpose is in participating in audio forums that are for enthusiasts.  

mgrif104

"There are easily measurable differences in conductance, inductance and capacitance among cables."

Easily measurable? I do that in my lab but don’t find it easy at all. Those are the electrical characteristics of an audio cable along with impedance and propagation velocity VERY IMPORTANT. How do you measure your cables? Do you by any chance use a new audio precision analyzer?

roadcykler

"You’ll hear a difference because you expect to hear a difference but there really isn’t any difference (except an even more exorbitant price). "

I agree with you 100% thanks for the input.

I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet, but you can get loaners from cableco.com I have a full loom of Heimdall 2 but found a really good price on some used Frey 2 speaker cables so I snagged them. They sound great, I was replacing my last non Nordost cables (Synergistic Research speaker cables), so I don't have Heimdall to Frey comparison. I auditioned most of my cables using the cableco.com loaner program. Very helpjul.

@roadcykler 

are you actually suggesting that there’s no difference (other than price) between any cables whatsoever? So, you can use the cheapest lamp cord (or even smaller gauge - no reason to waste copper) and you’re good to go for speaker cables?  

Same for $5 rca cables to connect preamp and amp?

I’m not trying to be snarky - though I get that you’re comfortable with that tone based on your response here and in other threads. I’m actually trying to determine the limit of your observation(s). If expensive cables make no difference, can you go with the lowest cost denominator?  And if not, then what might be the threshold for you?

There are easily measurable differences in conductance, inductance and capacitance among cables. Further - all cables are antennas of some sort - both broadcasting and receiving.

Claiming diminishing returns I understand and I’ll claim the same. However, claiming no difference just isn’t factually true. Differences between poor quality and good quality cables are plainly audible. Differences between two sets of quality cables will be less so, but still audible. 

Many here claim audiophiles exhibit confirmation bias. And, that’s understandable because it truly is a thing. I’m sure many of us (me included) have exhibited it. But the existence of confirmation bias does not mean that no differences exist. It means that we may be predisposed to like something. I’ll acknowledge that it may cause us to conclude we heard something not there, but I would counter that some differences are so easy to hear as to be obvious from another room - or to my wife walking in and asking “did you change something?” without foreknowledge. 

So, I’d politely suggest that if you really hold the view you do, fine, but it’s unnecessary for you to post in a thread where others are attempting to explore ways to improve their systems and are seeking well reasoned opinions from others who may have direct experience to share. I’d gather you do not fall in that camp.

Peace.

You'll hear a difference because you expect to hear a difference but there really isn't any difference (except an even more exorbitant price). 

I compared Tyr to Tyr 2 XLR cables. Tyr is a fast and detailed sounding interconnect but can sound slightly thin. Tyr 2 maintains all the best qualities of the original but is rounder, more organic and has better definition in the low end.
I now have two Tyr 2 XLRs - DAC to preamp and preamp to amps.
I had AQ power cables  - Tornado and Hurricane. I now use Frey 2 on streamer and DAC and Heimdall 2 on preamp. Much prefer these to pretty much anything I had in the past.

I’m currently using Audience AU24SX speaker cables but am curious to try Frey 2. Have been looking for a used set with spades (my speakers don’t eat bananas) and no luck so far. 

@akg_ca +1

Cables are so very system dependent, an extended audition in home is necessary. It just can’t be accomplished at the dealer.

That said, I did make an initial determination between Transparent, AQ and Nordost at the dealer to determine the “house” sound of each brand. It helped that the dealer carries my speaker (though not my electronics.)

What i wasn’t able to do unfortunately, was audition the reference level of the three brands, or anything beyond what my local dealer carried.

So, I’ll always have to wonder if I’d prefer reference level Transparent or AQ.  Fortunately, I’ve lost my appetite for that comparison as I’ve told myself Valhalla 2s should be end game. 

To @couger4u don’t let us discourage you from exploring Frey or Tyr II speaker cables. They are certainly very good and may indeed provide the results you hope for. Yes, there is always more, but it is certainly a diminishing returns game. Just be aware that if you don’t necessarily like them, it may be that it’s not the speaker cable you actually dislike. I could be that it is just potentially revealing other choke points in your system. Hence, the fun and/or frustrating part of this hobby.

I hope you come back to this thread to let us know how it’s going.

Best, 

I initially started with HEIMDALL in a prior system on the belief that it was the NORDOST model “sweet spot”, and then drank the KoolAid for an upgrade to a full FREY cables loom

MY TAKE:

IMO that experience in audio improvements moving up from the HEIMDALL to the FREY are as follows:

(a) Firstly, the audio performance uptick was slight / small incremental in general, but certainly not any Jesus moment …. and in hindsight, simply not worth the added cash outlay.

(b) if I was still married to NORDOST cables in my system and somehow looking for a meaningful performance upgrade, I would go straight up to the VALHALLA ….and just skip everything in the middle cable models..There is a good reason why NORDOST VALHALLA and CARDAS CLEAR are the two largest cable options selected by the exhibitors at the audio expos.

(c) Without prejudice to (b) above, the main audio improvements from HEIMDALL to FREY were only gleaned by going the full Monty as a cradle-to-grave full loom upgrade ( ALL of IC, speaker, & power…) to an entire matched NORDOST model full loom .For example, If you think that upgrading just the current HEIMDALL speaker cables in isolation will favourably stir your drink, you may be disappointed.

(D) Further, any NORDOST cable upgrades are entirely VERY system dependent … more so than many other premium brands . You might see audio performance changes but be prepared that they may not be for the better. For example, when I upgraded to new HARBETH speakers, my full current FREY loom carry- forward frankly now sucked, and sounded very “edgy”. and “brittle” and fatiguing at a minimum . A full FREY loom change was undertaken to a full CARDAS CLEAR loom as a necessary upgrade with improvements that were not insignificant.

Choose wisely.

PS  NOTDOST  V2 cables versus the prior V1 models

My personal take , the prior V1 is 95% of the performance quotient of the V2 at a fraction of the price. There are similar personal experiences posted in different audio forums that comment in like manner on this. 

I don’t own Nordstrom yet have heard a full loom with the DAC, pre and amp of my system and it shocked me on the dynamics and clarity. 
 

I bring this up because their philosophy on all cables. 
 

All that as context - I think there’s a difference. Is the ROI worth it is the question. 
 

Enjoy your journey and share your experience!

@couger4u 

That’s where it started for me - Tyr II interconnects (xlr balanced). I auditioned them against what I had (Cardas something), Transparent and AudioQuest. The Nordost - in my system with my gear at the time - was noticeably better than the others at the same price point. 

Those are very good interconnects and the difference they made in my system was significant - and much for the better. I did end up upgrading to Valhalla 2s. Better again but not as much difference as the Tyr II made for me initially. 

Then I fell into the rabbit hole w/ Nordost power cables and QB 8. 

Full disclosure - despite my comment on the benefits of an all Nordost loom (a comment I stand by as I heard it w/ some disbelief), I do have a few non-Nordost cables in system still. But, I’ve changed too many other things recently (upgraded my amp, speakers and DAC all in the past 7 months) and I want to be careful here as things are still being revealed. 

I found the Tyr IC to be the most beneficial change so I think you’re starting from a good place. The Tyr speaker cables are significantly more $$$ than Frey so it’s worth treading cautiously around that rabbit hole. 

Best,

@mgrif104  I do have Nordost Tyr IC for my system but use Audioquest Hurricane and Blizzard power cords. Hoping to get more out of it. Maybe I will go for Tyr speaker cable but I will see. Thanks for the reply.

I’m also looking to try Frey 2 speaker cables and will be following this thread. 

I am also in the Nordost ecosystem. I suspect you’ll hear an improvement. Depending on the rest of your system, you might be completely satisfied or be tempted to go further up the chain. Regardless, Frey is noticeably better than Heimdahl.  

As i went up through their levels, I enjoyed more openness/soundstage, more detail and a more natural presentation. As in all things audio, an audition in your system is a must to make sure they do what you hope they do. 

Lastly, I would note not only is system pairing important (hence the audition), but Nordost does seem to do better as a loom. I was highly skeptical of this when my dealer suggested it (skeptic understates it - I dismissed it). But he had me try it. Yep, other cables didn’t work as well as the Nordosts and I now have an all Valhalla 2 (and one Odin 1) loom. I had auditioned AQ and Transparent but liked Nordost best. For me and my system. Of course, YMMV.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

@overthemoon I have already changed the power cords and you are right, they made a difference for the better. Now it’s time for speaker cable. I want to hear better sound, image, 3D sound etc. 

What sound characteristics are you looking to change ?  Do you think you are missing something?  I ask because I've found significant impact from power cords and I didn't expect it.