Dear Rockitman, dear Lewm, in the early 2000s the Denon DL-103R was introduced.
I bought over a span of about 18 months a total of 46 samples.
Denon - as always - does include it's nice plotted frequency response with the output of both channels in mV.
The output did differ over a range from as low as 0.23mV up to 0.42mV.
Out of these 46 samples - which did came in 3 batches - 4 samples showed absolutely identical output on both coils.
At least identical to 0.005 mV.
Each of these 4 samples sounded VERY different to all the other 42 samples.
Much better than any of the other 42.
In terms of soundstage dimensions, extension and rock solid imaging during crescendi they were the equal of cartridges costing 20x as much.
Each of these 4 samples would have made a excellent example for the 50+ years of fame this particular cartridge enjoys.
Needless to say - each of these 46 samples had a 90° on spot stylus - judged by eyesight.
With the 4 "prime samples" and 4 others I had them examined with an electron-microscope to confirm what mere eyesight and sound did suggest - no derivation from 90° vertical.
With a then US$180 cartridge.
All top performing cartridges where I had a chance to examine their respective output of the coils did show VERY good matched coils indeed.
My cartridge manufacturer would do us a great favor by including a test sheet with the individual output of the coils, source impedance and their inductance ( with LOMCs in particular).
I believe - and have found exactly that on many occasions (read: set-up's in private audio systems ) - that most "azimuth corrections" were in fact stimulated by noticeable unbalanced output, - but ascribed to a misplaced stylus.
I am not a fan of the DaVinci, but I respect Brehm's point of view.
Having had a brief audition to his cartridge - which is dead on 90° of course - I see why his statement was made.
If - IF - all cartridge manufacturers out there would do their work as promised ( I know that Lyra, Ikeda, Denon, AT/Signet, Ortofon do ), there simply should be no need for azimuth adjustment.
Especially so, as - by the sheer frequency it is mentioned and apparently "applied" - it often is used without need and by error.
As is anti-skating.
The large portion of misplaced cantilever in used market cartridges speaks a clear statement here.
A statement which should now promote the thread even further ....;-) ... |
I think azimuth is a must for Der :-) 06-24-09: Perrew
D
what in your opinion constitutes a good tonearm?
06-24-09: Dertonarm
Dear Perrew, in no particular order:
- dynamic balanced design (I consider this a must !),
- adjustable overhang and AZIMUTH,
- very rigid construction - resulting in good energy and vibration handling,
- 10" minimum effective length to get below 2 degrees error,
I believe these are among the few key features of any great pivot tonearm design. All truely great pivot tonearms do have these 4 in common (except the Graham Phantom - which I would include in my list).
Cheers,
D.
Dertonarm |
Dear Lbelchev, you will be surprised, but again the key problem is reading.
Perrew asked for my opinion what constitutes a good tonearm.
I said above the DaVinci sounds good (if aligned exactly) and that it does represent a better value ( particular in future sale on the used market ) than the other contender.
About azimuth adjustment, I said above it should not be necessary ..... and that I respect Brehm's point of view.
My tonearm too does feature azimuth adjustment (in fact with fine calibrated scale that is - so one will always get back to precisely set positions) - as you will see in 4 months here pictured on Audiogon.
Still very interesting to see, how very few - of the "fan-groups", as well as the more smart ones here - seem to have a problem in the first with misplaced stylus.
Did I miss something here and is it indeed an inevitable law of nature?
Or were we just told for so long it is?
I am realizing that I fight a rather lonely battle here - but no problem, I am used to it.
Following one of SJ's key phrases automatically leads to this.
So - who's next ? |
Dertonarm, so do you also think anti-skate is unnecessary? I'm not asking in order to stoke an argument. I respect your knowledge and experience in vinyl, so I'm curious about your opinion on this subject, which is also somewhat controversial. |
Dertonarm, this is really blowing the wind hard. My tonearm too does feature azimuth adjustment (in fact with fine calibrated scale that is - so one will always get back to precisely set positions) - as you will see in 4 months here pictured on Audiogon. What you are saying is very simple. In theory (or in an ideal audio world), azimuth adjustment on an arm is not necessary. But in reality or from a marketing point of view (if that's the case for you to try to sell der tonarm), it's necessary to have, and you even make it more refined which by itself might be a good thing, although you didn't go as far as what Talea did. Basically you are saying one thing and doing another. What you believe (if you have one) is not what you are going to behave. Very misleading say the least. Better put some disclaimer as other dealers or makers do on your future post before you have a brand: maker of Uni-XXX |
Kdl, see - I am a pacifist and practicing martial arts since 30 years.
Is this a contradiction and does it mean preaching one thing and doing the other?
If something is beyond one's capability one shouldn't try to judge.
I have incorporated azimuth adjustment in my tonearm - and in a way no one else has done before - because of "customer's request" indeed.
To address all possible requirements - not because I personally need it.
Furthermore to show how it can be done better than before.
I believe in nothing which would tell you anything.
The simplicity of a judgement reflects the mind of the originator.
As William Blake put it so nicely over 2 centuries ago "the eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow".
Take it the way you like to. |
Dear DT, After all the times I wrote my contrary opinion and all the times you seemed to agree with me, are you saying once again that you can tell by visual inspection of a cartridge that it will have "perfect" azimuth, i.e., that 90 degrees of azimuth will extract the best crosstalk results? Because I still think that notion is dead wrong. It certainly is a good thing if the stylus and cantilever appear perfectly aligned, but it tells you nothing about the alignment of the coils with the magnet structure, the major determinant of variation in crosstalk. If you can tell me why I am incorrect, I am willing to learn something.
I would love to see an EM photo of a cartridge stylus. With any decent EM set to its lowest magnification, the surface of a stylus tip would look like a vast plain such as we have here east of the Rocky Mts. However, it seems to me one would be too close (the magnification would be too high) to tell much about stylus shape and degree of wear, kind of like identifying an elephant by feeling its tail while blindfolded. |
Dear Wrm57, no, anti-skating is necessary - depending on the cartridge, stylus shape, compliance and VTF, geometry of tonearm and effective length of tonearm and thus resulting off-set.
There are tonearm/cartridge combinations where anti-skating in mandatory and there are certain tonearm/cartridge combinations where anti-skting compensation is obsolete.
It depends - such I have incorporated an anti-skating compensation.
An unique one. |
Dear Lewm, these shots aren't digitalised yet, but I will try my best and send you a few shots by PM in a few days.
And - oh, yes ... you will clearly see disproportional wear on one of the stylus.
BTW - due to "azimuth adjustment" ......
No, I can't tell by mere eyesight whether a stylus is 90° dead vertical.
And I haven't stated in this thread that I can.
That's why I conducted a survey.
In general - in general ... - it no longer a problem today in NEW cartridges.
But get a cartridge from "demo" or used and you will find a hell of a lot with displaced/disorientated cantilever due to erratic applied anti-skating and/or disproportional worn stylus. |
Hey Dertonarm, do not get it so seriously - just a joke.
I'm not surprised. If the probleme again is in the reading, it is not there. Apparently the problem is in the writing.
I'm not in any "fan-groups" (unlike somebody here)!!
I have absolutely no interest in azimuth - no matter with or without fine calibrated scale !!
So, to return to the Lunas question - TW-Acustic Raven 10.5 or DaVinci Grandezza?
Your answer is: "The DaVinci will be a future classic - for design and performance and is THE single component which has put DaVinci on the map."
My two cents - Yes, but this future classic single super component has very short life - it is out of production !!
Best regards,
Lyubo
|
Dertonam,
Just a quick note to say thank you for your input. Whilst we all may have differing views, your posts above raising the questions on coil output, electrical behaviour and stylus alignment vs asymuth are thought provoking and add significantly more to the discussion than comments such as "blah blah blah" and he said/she said type arguments.
Thanks again for taking the time to explain your views, some of us appreciate that. |
Dear Dover: Are you serious? how is that a 20+ years " professional " high end audio distributor today " discover " " coil output/electrical behavior and stylus alignment vs azymuth ? what was or what kind of support and advise gave all those years to your customers? no one asked?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Hey Raul,
I know heaps, I've forgotten heaps and I'm sure there is always opportunity to learn more. What's wrong with thanking someone for putting time and effort into explaining their experiences.
By the way with regard to the RIAA curve, since you are a manufacturer of phono stages, the comments I made on an earlier other thread were slightly askew. The RIAA standards require amplifiers that drive the cutterheads to apply compression and expansion above and below 1000hz. The engineers could not build amplifiers in those days to do that and In actual fact you will find the turnover points are actually around 400hz and ( I cant remember the figure ) but around 4000hz. This means for accurate reproduction of RIAA recordings you actually need a flat midrange at around 400hz to 4khz.
As stated earlier I have a mathemetician/engineer mate who has modelled this revised RIAA playback in an op amp based phono stage ( not your normal stuff, the op amps used are next generation designs not yet available to manufacturers ) and the organic wholeness of the midrange is revelatory.
Ironically you could drive the cutterheads far more accurately today as regards RIAA compression/expansion with digital amps.
Cheers,
|
Dear Dover, thank you for the kind comment. I must admit, that the positive correspondence with Audiogoners far outnumbers - and out-weights the unimportant negative feedback and insults by people whom - based on their style as well as their apparent lack of background - I can't take serious anyway.
Especially so, as there still are a lot of seasoned audiophiles who do take their passion really serious in a positive way and strive for real improvement.
It can't be a mistake to try to take as many points into account as possible when trying to get the maximum of performance out of any set-up.
In analog front-end there still are way too many "uncertainties" and aziumth adjustment - as well as anti-skating and the back ground of skating force - is IMHO taken way too easy.
My reservations here are a matter of "field experience".
There are just too many used cartridges out there with disorientated cantilever to believe that the correct application of anti-skating is a solved issue.
And there are way too many cartridges - and I mean cartridges from manufacturers where I KNOW that the stylus is correct placed - "azimuth corrected" mounted (i.e. NOT in parallel to the record's surface in front view).
I would bet that a good portion of those cartridges is mounted in good faith with "azimuth correction", but in fact the motivation was raised by sample inherent channel in-balance and/or misalignment.
We do not need to turn to DaVinci here.
The SME V is a real reference standard since 30 years now.
Robert Atkinson's team had some real good engineers around.
They knew what they were doing.
And they knew why they did not include aziumth adjustment as a feature.
It was discussed widely back then when the eagerly awaited SME V was finally introduced.
From the engineer's point of view the concept was correct.
You assume that the tires you are buying for your car are round - if they aren't, you can't blame the car for not having an adjustment to adapt for that.
You insist on a perfect round tyre which is just as easy a task as a perfect 90° stylus on a cantilever.
So why accepting it in analog audio?
I still think it is a valid request to accept any new cartridge with a dead 90° stylus only.
And I think that manufacturer's who really care about their product - Jonathan Carr for instance - will agree. |
Alastair Robertson-Aikman, the founder of SME not Robert Atkinson. |
Sorry for the typo ...;-) ... glad the message still arrived. |
Dertonam et al,
Another problem I have seen many many times is caused by armboards that are not perfectly level and referenced to the platter resulting in vertical bearings off level and the arm running uphill or downhill. Antiskate has been used to compensate for this incorrectly. How many people run a dial gauge over the platter and armboard to check the allignment - a simple and worthwhile exercise before mounting arms. Any TT with a wooden armboard is a nightmare in this respect. |
I'm looking (like Luna) for the impressions of the Audiogoners about two tonearms (this is the reason that I'm in this tread).
Instead, we get great information about coil output, electrical behaviour, stylus alignment, asymuth,RIAA curve... Thanks.
Please, if someone have experience with TW Acustic 10.5 and DaVinci Grandezza (on Raven), let share his impressions. I consider and Phantom Ultimate, but it will be out of topic ;-)
Thank you in advance. |
Taking about "out of topic", I once asked Dertoarm what tonearm should I get, DaVinci Grandezza or Phantom ? He told me to get Phantom, but I get the Grandezza. Why ? Because it looks so good.
Now the OP asked TW or Grandezza? And Derto choose Grandezza.
Hidden agenda? No, that just his opinion.
Am I right and he is wrong? I don't know , because I haven't try Phantom yet. But I'm grateful to him cause he took time to answer my email.
Regards, |
Dear Measel, you asked me between the Phantom and Grandezza - and made your decision based on looks.
Which is perfectly fine and the Grandezza is a nice tonearm with very aesthetic looks.
I recommended the DaVinci Grandezza here under different conditions and with a different contender.
And I did so based on performance, looks and prospective future value.
Enjoy your Grandezza.
I have listen to the DaVinci on various occasions in 4 set-ups of seasoned audiophiles and Audiogoners.
It was never an insult to my ears ..;-) ....
I have a Grand Grandezza 12" rhodium plated finish in my small collection.
It is not in use, but it sure looks beautiful. |
Dear Lbelchev: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1319419660&openflup&40&4#40
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Like most things Italian, the Grandezza is simply gorgeous. "Simply" is the operative word, too. I am thankful that it is so expensive that I cannot be tempted to buy one. For 95,000 more US dollars, I can have a used Ferrari. |
Lbelchev, I have had the 10.5 for over a year and I am verry happy with it. Still have the a Triplanar VII and took it off my Raven AC several month ago (was running two tonearms).
I have not heard the DaVinci but it was on my short list. They show up used once in a while. I still plan on getting another arm and I will sell the TriPlanar. At this point the DaVinci is no longer on my short list. I think there are other arms that are more interesting to me e.g. the Talea. Plus if the new DaVinci is much more adjustable and becomes loved I have to wonder how the old models will be viewed?
TD
Hope that helps |
Dear Gentlemans: Now that all we know that azymuth is no need it at all and that the Grandezza is now a " classic " due that is a defunct item I want to share with you my additional thoughts about:
the azymuth subject IMHO can't be take it as if the stylus is dead on: 90° or not but if we need this tonearm tool or not ( I posted that are several reasons about. ).
I think there are good reasons to ask for it in any tonearm, I will name some of them and you can think on other ones. One of these reasons is that the cartridge stylus ( even in a perfect set-up. ) has no the same wear on both sides of the tip due that what is recorded in each side groove is different and the stylus tip " suffer " different wear/degradation about over time so over time we will need to adjust azymuth to be down " there " on traget ( this kind of stylus-tip wear came with differences on bot sides when we don't take enough care cleaning perfefctly the stylus tip at each LP side we listening. Stylus dust makes a lot of harm, you can't imagine. ).
Other reason, during the proccess to stamp 5k or 10K LPs not all the 5K or 10K LP stamped with the same " stamp 2 are " cutted " the same and I mean " side by side ", in several of those LPs are differences where we need to adjust cartridge azymuth.
Other reason could be that the cutter-head amplifiers have tiny gain differences that we can fix with that tonearm tool.
Now, any one of you lately measured your amplifier or phono stage or line stage or phonolinestagepreamp or even speakers gain/output on both channels? if not please do it and you will find out differences between both channels ( different levels on it. ). Yes you can fix it through a preamp balance control or if your preamp has two independent continuos volume controls ( stepped ones does not works here. ): what if you can't do it through your preamp? well azymuth control can help.
Now, all that happen with a perfect cartridge/tonearm set up but this perfect set-up just does not exist. We are imperfect and audio belongs to imperfections at each single step in the whole audio chain so we need as many " controls " we can achieve to fix or at least try to lower all those audio imperfections.
So IMHO we have to take that azymuth subject in the whole audio system context.
Now, the cartridge build is made it by hand and we are imperfect and as we are imperfect as imperfections ( tiny tiny ones. ) are in the cartridges. That some cartridge manufacturers have 100% quality control does not means that all manufacturers are the same and does not means that that few top manufacturers have as a target not 0.00001% of tolerances but CERO tolerances: this even does not exist because the tools to do it does not exist yet. When these cartridge build tools exist and the cartridge were builded by mechanic robots then we could have a perfect cartridge not before. This is IMHO true on cartridges and in other audio items.
Need we azymuth/anti skate tonearm controls because the " market is asking for " ? NO we need it because are a useful tools and we need it to fix ( lowering. ) " imperfections ".
Can I be wrong?, could be but as any one of you this is my take in the whole subject.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Correction please, Grandezza are Swiss made, just sound Italian maybe.
Cheers, |
Mesael
Taking about "out of topic", I once asked Dertoarm what tonearm should I get... You did W-H-A-T ? You asked HIM? Oh, my God.. Didn't you know this is Blasphemy? Not everywhere but in some southern states... Regards and enjoy the music :-) |
Dear Dover: +++++ " Another problem I have seen many many times is caused by armboards that are not perfectly level and referenced to the platter " +++++
agree, several times.
Other reasons for the needs on azymuth control/tool: is there cero tolerance in the " flat " cartridge top plate? or cero tolerance in the tonearm headshell plate? or cero tolerance in the tonearm it self alignment: it is dead straigth? and we can go on and on on the subject.
Dertonarm said that in 12 years he did not found out any cartridge with trouble about, he is really lucky!. If we assume that he tested 1 cartridge by day then he tested around 4K cartridges ( or maybe only 600. ) when in those 12 years the cartridge universe was several hundred thousands of cartridges and counting.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Lewm, Grandezza tonearm (I have one, in rhodium) is only named after an Italian, albeit a genius as in Leonardo, i presume. My motorcycle is very special limited edition (MH900E) with no miles (Italian), put away. My three road race bicycles, (full italian), have no odometers, so I ride ... plus I feel any accumulated miles are on me! I have not had an Italian girlfriend, yet .... when I do find her, I hope she cooks!! Sorry for the Italy detour:) |
Dear friends: As other people in this thread already showed there are several contradictions on almost any post by dertonarm and that's why I posted that he is a non trusty chameleon opinion ( at least on these subjects/regards. ). Here are other contradictions on what he stated in this thread:
he applaud the SME V ( I own this tonearm and this is not the point but what he said in two post on the same subject. ):
+++++++ They did not give this very precise figure out of the blue........
SME took for granted all industry standards of its day (early 1980ies) and said:
"well, if all cartridge designers do obey to and follow the standards given and if all LPs are cut following the new IEC standard, then evrything will be perfect with our new tonearm - it will be the "best tonearm in the world"............"
But the world is an imperfect one and many people do want to go their own ways.
The new SME surely was the LEAST UNIVERSAL tonearm ever designed .......
The SME V was a child of its day and was regarded when introduced as the first tonearm which took all (some of them fairly new...) industry standards for record-cutting and cartridge dimensions serious.
Too serious. ++++++++
now on the Davinci/azymuth where he favored against this thread where we " don't need it anymore but because marketing it came incorporated in its tonearm ". Here start about:
+++++ Dear Halcro, you can not compensate azimuth offset with balance control. Azimuth offset means - always! - a misalignment of the stylus towards BOTH groove walls. This has to be fixed at the source. You can mask the sonic result to some degree (in fact only the channel imbalance.. ) with the balance control, but the problem remains and it will shorten both - the life-time of your stylus AND records.
Aside from the sonic presentation (soundstage width and depth and high frequency reproduction) which does suffer too.
To fix this issue, do get AND use very thin plastic washers (sometimes part of cartridge screws by-pack assembly) to eliminate the problem where it occurs. +++++
and he followed:
+++++ Correct azimuth is a must and is determined by the position of the stylus in the groove and towards both walls. Thus a headshell level (spirit bubble or not....) has little to no use as Dougdeacon and Essentialaudio already mentioned correctly.
The problem has to be fixed at the source - you can not "correct" a misalignment of azimuth anywhere else in the chain - only at the stylus.
If the stylus is not 100% vertical in relation to the upper plane of the mounting cartridge body, you need a headshell which can be rotated in its axis - at least to some degree.
Its an imperfect world - thus we need alignments.... " +++++
and he followed:
+++++ " Sorry folks - azimuth-adjustment in real world conditions has to be (and can only be ..) done by the one single instrument most audiophiles seems do trust the very least.
The ear........+++++
but now he is in love with SME and with the today " perfect audio world where we don't need alignments"!!!!!! ( his words not mine. )
There are several other examples on these and other subjects with the same contradictory opinions in the same subject where Dertonarm try to defend or try to impose his opinion at any " cost ", including his own lose credibility. Of course that he did/do that always thinking that all of us are absolutely 100% " ignorants " but him that has the " light ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Coming back to the universal acceptance of faulty produced cartridges - i.e. cartridges with a stylus not 90° dead center.
If any one reading this thread has had the experience lately ( the last years ...) that he/she/it bought a cartridge new in the shop, took it home, mounted it and found that it needed azimuth adjustment - I would like to know two things:
a) what was the "sonic" reason or evidence for the assumption that it was indeed a misplaced stylus which asked for azimuth adjustment ?
b) why wasn't it returned it to the dealer for refund/exchange but accepted "as is" ?
And - I don't mean cartridges bought second hand like "demo" sample or with "50 hours only - hardly broken in - as new !".
I have no doubt that a hell of a lot of cartridges out there do need azimuth adjustment NOW.
But they did not need it when they were "new out of the box".
They were raped, twisted and misaligned/-orientated by faulty set-up.
After 50 hours playing with way too high anti-skating no cantilever is orientated anymore the way it left the factory.
After 50 hours playing in a tonearm which has ledge and isn't level you certainly need azimuth to correct the now disorientated stylus.
These two aren't the only, but the 2 most prominent and frequent scenarios.
No - don't get me wrong.
I certainly accept that there are misplaced stylus out there which can still perform decent when the azimuth is corrected.
I just state that this can not/shall not/shall not be acceptable with a NEW cartridge.
Not on the price level we are talking about.
No one of us would accept this kind of product quality in any other part of his life ( well, maybe in countries where "quality" isn't really a common phrase ...).
By requesting azimuth adjustment in a tonearm we imply, that we either:
a) use cartridges which we bought second hand - and found out (surprise !) that they need adjustment in that plane.
b) do happily accept low quality control and faulty product for our cash.
c ) believe that this world is an imperfect one in the sense that a simple industrial stylus can't be glued/drilled/placed in place but by dump luck.
That in the times when laser guidance is long an industry standard.
Sorry - but that would mean being badly informed about the subject.
Which isn't necessary in the hey-days of the web we so widely use.
It is about whether I do accept an evitable product fault in the first or not.
It is only in the first matter, that the specific tonearm needs azimuth adjustment. |
Dear Glai, Dear Tdaudio,
Thanks for your efforts to share with us your impressions about this tonearms.
Glay, as usual, you make perfect description. You are the man who clear say: "I tried both toneararms on my Raven AC, on my system and my impressions are the following...".
Tdaudio, I wish you to catch the Talea (or the new Virtu) and be able to compare it with 10.5 TW.
Luna, do you make your choice and how useful was this thread?
Happy listening.
Lyubo |
Dear Dover, agreed - level of both platter and tonearm board is an issue in a good portion of turntables.
As we are dealing with pretty "small" (quantified in relative ..;-) ..) forces in tonearm alignment, full plane horizontal level is mandatory to ensure the absence of "parasite" forces which will alter the result and thus lead to misalignment.
Anti-skating rarely if ever is applied in any correct form.
Especially so, since skating force itself first is not linear over the groove AND depends on stylus shape, off-set angle and VTF.
Now add an armboard which isn't level ( I would estimate 90+% of all turntables out there ) and/or a turntable which' platter isn't level (talking about speed accuracy ...).
Key problem here is, that really a good bubble/spirit level is both - a bit more expensive but foremost: pretty heavy.
If you are looking for a precision aluminum level with say 0.6 mm/m accuracy for technical purpose, you are looking a something which itself already has a mass in excess of 1 lbs and is 8" long.
If you want to go further/do better - say 0.1 mm/m accuracy and a frame level which you can put nicely around the center of your platter and thus avoid leveling error by the instrument's mass - than we are talking US$500+ and a mass of 2.5-4.8 lbs with precision smoothed contact surface.
That will be accurate, but the sheer mass of the leveling instrument will falsify the result - at least on all turntables which are suspended with pretty low mass.
The spirit levels we see sold for audio purpose are only jokes.
A good way to go is the use of special architectural and measurement laser equipment which "draws" precise leveled lines on objects.
Thus armboards and platters can be leveled without additional mass. |
OK, so a few of those incredible Italian industrial designers slipped across the border from Italy into Switzerland. Perhaps politics had something to do with that. One can see many Ferrari's zipping around Alpine roads. I was once overtaken by a 250GT on a downhill heading into Ventimiglia, at a speed never to be forgotten. First, a dot in my rear view mirror, then in an instant passing me, then in another instant a dot on the horizon. Alas, I was driving a rented Fiat.
If armboard is not plane parallel to platter, I would fix that not with azimuth adjust. Even if it made any sense to do it that way, azimuth adjust could only correct for one kind of error in the alignment, along one arc. Whereas, the error in armboard/platter alignment could describe any one of an infinite family of arcs. |
Dear Lewm, of course you wouldn't fix a non-plane parallel to platter armboard with azimuth.
But there are enough audiophile who do - by error.
I was referring to this because I have found many situations with "azimuth corrected" cartridges which in reality was not a misplaced stylus but a ledge of the armboard towards the platter.
But as the level wasn't checked - precisely or at all - the "apparent" wrong azimuth was "corrected".
This was mentioned, to illustrate the point that "apparent wrong" azimuth isn't always what it seems on first sight. |
DT, I thought it was someone else who actually suggested that azimuth adjustment is a desirable feature, BECAUSE of possible problems related to the spatial location of the armboard with respect to the platter. We don't disagree on this.
However, I do get a sense of security with tonearms that provide for azimuth adjustment vs those that do not. Unfortunately, the sad fact is that most tonearms that offer the feature also change VTA along with azimuth, because to change azimuth, they rotate the arm tube near the pivot, not taking into account the offset angle of the headshell. Best way to do it is right at the headshell, so only the headshell rotates and only in the vertical plane of the stylus tip. Only Reed does it that way, or some detachable headshells offer it as well.
Actually, I was wrong in my geometrical analysis; the situation is even worse than I wrote, if one were to try to correct for armboard/platter disorientation using azimuth. At the very best, you could only restore the proper relationship (platter plane parallel to armboard) at one single point across the entire surface of an LP. And that's assuming the error was within the arc described. |
Well, at least SME and DaVinci honored what they think on azymuth and designed according that honest " attitude " and did not corrupted their " feelings " in favor of $$$ or against them " feelings ", good!
R. |
Dear Lewm, not only the Reed - you can even adjust azimuth on the venerable FR-60s series tonearms in the way you are used to do it on the Reed.
And since you only have a play of say 0 - 2° in both directions, this "hidden" azimuth adjustment option is indeed located right at the SME-bajonet adapter.
Thus not interfering with VTA nor changing the tonearm's geometry. |
Dear Lewm, Best way to do it is right at the headshell, so only the headshell rotates and only in the vertical plane of the stylus tip. Only Reed does it that way, or some detachable headshells offer it as well. I think TW-Acustic Raven 10.5 does it that way too :-) |
Dear Lbelchev: You can do this in any removable headshell tonearm design through the tonearm collar at the front or through the headshells that came with azymuth " control " like in the Raven one where you even can have the cartridge up side down.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: That azymuth changes through the tonearm collar ( SME removable headshell type. ) is an old trick for that kind of tonearms that were not designed for azymuth changes. It is a pain to use it because was not designed for that purpose.
In those all times clever/wise/knowledge Japanese tonearm designers ( there were not many, few very few. ) took in count the azymuth subject through their designs and from the ones I remember ( I own those tonearms. ) only Lustre GST-801 and Audio Technica ones ( they builded different models. . ) came with this azymuth control by design through the original Lustre and AT headshells, just like the Raven today.
No, Dynavector, SAEC, Micro Seiki, FR, Technics, Audiocraft or Denon thinked about.
Lewm, try to find out a Lustre one: this japanese design was IMHO one not only of the best tonearms out there but a design several several years a head any other tonearm design: even the ones today and you don't need to pay " stupid " high prices for it: this IMHO and talking on tonearms is a real/true century bargain ever.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Raul, Yes of course - I do it in both ways. |
Btw, I'm refering on the prices subject to the vintage tonearms.
R. |
The Koshin/Lustre tonearm is indeed an interesting design. It was sold in pretty large quantities in Germany. Especially so since Thorens offered the Koshin/Lustre as one of the 3 choices coming with a TD126 mk3.
The can be bought second hand for about 500 USD.
They were often referred to as "poor man's Fidelity Research FR-64".
Nice heavy mass tonearm.
Not great, but nice and well above the average. |
Raul,
I just finished reading this long thread. I love how you say it like it is. Good for you.
Dert,
I stopped posting much on Audiogon because you & your group o f so called superior ears just ruined this site. Sorry but got to say it as I see it. Full of hidden agendas and taking every single thread off topic. How sad. Wonder why you aren't much on the German forums.
Meanwhile I know a few moving on to other forums for the friendlier nature.
As for the TW Arm, I own it & quite like it. But I will stress it isn't just the arm. It is the arm cartridge synergy. With the MC2 Finish it is a wonderful match. Ease of setup is high. But I do love my Schroder as well. Totally different and a pain to set up.
Both these arms are from German designers. So Dert the superior to all Germans will have nothing good to say.
Why am I wasting my time. Most have Dert figured out by now. But my iPad is great to use while going to the bathroom & reading Dert's posts fit with what I am doing. |
From photos, the Lustre tonearms do appear to be beautifully made. Is it the GST-801? (Of course, by the time we are reading this, the price on the Lustre has probably risen by $500.) Since by pure chance my L07D came with an NOS secondary tonearm mount for SAEC (so one can mount an SAEC at the rear of the chassis and thereby use a second tonearm as well as the primary one), i have been tempted to consider an SAEC as well. |
Dgad, "we the people" haven't really noticed your absence. Those able to read without having to go through the matrix of their ego will realize that in the very beginning of any thread - especially with your beloved TW - I only took position against pre-laurels.
I couldn't really see any justified "best" before a product was even introduced and delivered.
While this now has apparently becoming a common rule and we see each week another "best of all times" going and going again.
Same with TW and FS - I personally have no problem with them at all.
Now read this carefully - I know you will.
Nor do I have any problem with their products.
Both do deliver well manufactured components which do reflect the positive in german engineering, quality approach and design.
They aren't bad - they are good and they deserve the market success they have.
Message received ?
They are not my cup of tea, but I respect them.
There is way much worse out there.
Surprised ?
No one should.
At least not those who pay attention and read careful.
There are a few people who are unable to read anything which isn't to their particular liking without the glasses of their own matrix.
Consequently they will run into problems with people taking a different point of view and position.
That's happen everywhere in life.
You are right - most have figured me out by now.
A few apparently haven't.
If I wouldn't get the opposition of people like you and others you agree with and who agree with you, I know something would be wrong with my point of view.
Reliefed to learn I am still on firm course.
Agree - the iPad 2 is great.
But I don't read your posts on my way to the bathroom. |
Dear Dgad: +++++ " Wonder why you aren't much on the German forums " +++++
there are very good reasons for that. The Dertonarm audio history is a deep and dirty black one. I received several emails from his german audio " friends " where they gave me ( I never asked for. ) point by point an important part of his audio history.
I can't post those german emails for respect to the Dertonarm person/human been figure but suffice is to say that he was expel/ejected by the back-door from all those forums as a fact Agon is his last chance and his last refuge till Agon eject him too.
His audio history is really bad more that you or any one could imagine: full of harmful facts/actions to the good and honest people out there.
What he already showed in Agon forums is only the point/tip of the iceberg ( a big one I have to say. ).
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Luna, as to your original question.
You might make up your mind first which are your favorite cartridge(s) you may use in the tonearm of your choice.
The TW 10.5 might indeed give you a wide range of suitable cartridges to choose from.
A point which shouldn't be forgotten.
"Always be ready to speak your mind and a base man will avoid you".
William Blake, The Marriage of heaven and Hell, Proverbs of Hell, Plate 8.
One of my heroes from the age of enlightenment.
And one of my favorite proverbs.
Following a rule like this can't just earn you friends only along the road. |
Mike,
who brought you on the trail of Dgad? There is no group, believe me. Of course these are individuals coming together, exchanging ideas and also having very different ideas on many audio subjects.
It is like in the US too where some audio friends exchange experiences.
Some of these guys are very keen on the technical side, some more on specific subjects like carts, design etc.
It sometimes seems to me that we all are a bit sensitive towards critical comments and some of us on Audiogon take it personal very quickly.
But what is wrong when someone cannot agree to a statement that at turntable with a damaged bearing still sounds like one of the Top Performers. This is perfect bullshit and maybe one day we will end up in this circus with a design of a floating cartridge needle making us believing it is the benchmark design of all times...
best @ fun only |
Raul, it's hilarious reading your thoughts on Dertonarm and you're certainly entitled to them but in actuality nobody's a bigger dirtbag than you. |
