Thanks to everyone who has inputed to this thread. Especially to you, Dgad! After our long discussion with Dgad, I have also asked the opinion from my dealer who does TW and Davinci. His analysis is similar to Dgads that the Davinci has better valve and can be of a higher level, but... may be restricted by the Raven One and my novices set up ability. The TW arm is easier to play around for better results in my system. I will save up for a better cartridge like the XV1. As to upgrade to a higher level TT like Raven AC would be out of my reach for a long while. Dgads suggestion of synergy between arm/cartridge combinations is most valuable and I will keep that as reference. By my own, I would have gone for the DaVinci with no hesitation for its valve and its look! Following his sincerely detailed and unbiased advice, I think I had a pretty good idea now. |
My take is different than yours Dertonarm. I find the "tonality" of wood makes up for the ZYX Universe slight tendency to a leaner but more detailed sound. You might be right about the unipivots but wood for me was the major factor. I sold my ZYX as it was a little off of neutral and honestly now I do miss it. Goes to show what we like best might not be the best.
To sum up audiophiles beware, this is a biased and opinionated hobby. You need to take into account that at many an audio show people disagree about what room sounds good. How can we truly get accurate or meaningful advise from a forum unless we qualify the person giving the advise. |
Luna, As we babble on, you've probably got the idea, as I have, that no one can really tell you which of these two tonearms will please you the most. Obviously they are both high quality items, so you have little to lose either way. |
Greetings, Kdl. I have it under good authority that a crazy Texan traded a Da Vinci Grandezza tonearm in on a new top-class vinyl machine from Bavaria. I believe that someone will be getting a great Grandezza at a wonderful entry acquisition price, maybe even you! |
I just want to clarify that the arms comes with the table and DaVinci is actually $1000 more. The reason is that the TW table and 10.5 arm will be brand new where the DaVinci is two years old. |
Easy on the hot sauce Raul.
It's getting difficult to predict which end of your body passes the most stale air. |
Dear Lewm, indeed the ZYX UNIverse (and other ZYX cartridges) do work VERY well in uni-pivot tonearms as in wooden arm wands.
One of the reasons is that the ZYX cartridges do put very little energy into the tonearm during tracking. |
Great news! Now I will be able to pick up a used A90 for "peanuts", as all those who must have the latest and greatest will be shedding their outmoded and outdated A90s. I love it. And woe to the poor guy who has an NOS A90, hoping to sell it for more than retail price.
Dear Dgad, Thanks for pointing out the possibly synergy between ZYX UNIverse and wood tonearms. I can tell you that the combination of it with Talea was really great. Since I do already own a Reed, you have added fuel to the fire. My thinking was that there is a particular "sound" of unipivots, even the best ones like Talea and Graham, that may make them a good complement to the UNIverse. |
Dear friends: Any of you mated already with your beloved tonearms this new Ortofon LOMC cartridge?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
The new Ortofon flagship MC Anna
MC Anna represents a combination of following elements very characteristic for Ortofon:
The housing and the body of the cartridge are made in Titanium with SLM technique. The Selective Laser Melting technique was pioneered by Ortofon for manufacturing of the MC A90, SPU 90th Anniversary and Xpression cartridges
At the High-End show May 2011 in Munich Ortofon was very pleased to showcase the brand newest High End flagship MC Anna.
Ortofon has a long tradition paying tribute to the persons who had been a feature of the High-End culture, Ortofon culture and Music culture and history.
In honour of these remarkable persons Ortofon launched a number of products through the last years, incl. MC Windfeld, MC Rohmann, Kontrapunkt BACH series etc.
This year we are very proud and honoured to introduce our new High End cartridge MC Anna, dedicated to the virtuoso opera singer Anna Netrebko. By this we will emphasizes our commitment and devotion to the music, pure musicality and the power it possesses.
The new improved magnet system which Ortofon has patent pending. High performance iron-cobalt alloy is applied for some parts of the magnet system
The new revolutionary armature damping system that provides complete elimination of unwanted resonance
Ortofon Replicant 100 diamond, thin and light, with an extraordinarily large contact surface, tracing accuracy unparalleled by any other needle in existence. Special polished Nude Ortofon Replicant 100 on Boron cantilever provides more responsive and transparent sound reproduction.
Technical data_preliminary:
Output voltage at 1 kHz, 5cm/sec.: 200 µV
Channel balance at 1 kHz: 0,5 dB
Channel separation at 1 kHz: 25 dB
Channel separation at 15 kHz: 22 dB
Frequency response: 20 Hz - 20 kHz + / - 1,5 dB
Tracking ability at 315 Hz at recommended tracking force: 80 µm
Compliance, dynamic, lateral: 9 µm/mN
Stylus type: Special polished Nude Ortofon Replicant 100 on Boron Cantilever
Stylus tip radius: r/R 5/100 µm
Tracking force, recommended: 2,3 g (23 mN)
Tracking angle: 23°
Internal impedance, DC resistance: 6 Ohm
Recommended load impedance: > 10 Ohm
Cartridge body material: SLM Titanium
Cartridge colour: Silver/Black
Cartidge weight: 16 g
Looks great in its " rounded " body shape.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
|
Dertonarm: Are you for real? After pomp the Grandezza to a future class status and value, now came to the dump of your Grandezza for under 5K even 2K lower than another demo unit in US. LOL. |
I just want to point out how hard it is to get at the truth of things, when people argue with the purpose of trying to attack a person. |
Dear friends: For those FR tonearm advocates this product is a must to own. Btw, it works with all the new Ikeda tonearm designs too ( I own it. ):
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtnrm&1325038195&/Fidelity-Research-B60-elevation-base
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Quick question. Anyone compare the latest round of wood based Tonearms such as Durand, Talea to the latest from Schroeder & Davinci. I wonder how much of the sound can be attributed to wood. The reason I ask is all the Zyx universe comments were referencing wood arms. I had the same experience with my SQ. seems to be synergistic with wood.
Breuer is a nice arm. It is a little limited in features & cartridge setup. |
Apologies for last post double up - my mac is playing up. |
The discussion has been great but the original thread was
"I am getting a Raven one but will have a choice of the Raven 10.5 or DaVinci Grandezza for just $2000 more! Which should I go for? Well I am not sure if Raven one is a good match to this super arm but the 10.5 have got great reviews. Please give soem advice."
Has anyone thought to ask how you can get either of these arms for $2000.
Is he paying too much for the Raven One or could the arms on offer be dodgy ?
The best answer may be to buy the Grandezza for $2000, sell it and then buy a new TW Acoustic. |
Halcro,
Thanks, I was a bit hasty re-reading the initial thread. In retrospect I think you are right. Does add context though, as the question becomes is the Da Vinci worth the extra $2k. I'd buy the Rhodanized Da Vinci if it were me. I would be wondering is he talking about buying a Raven One or Raven AC - 1 motor. If he is buying the Raven One then the extra money may be better spent on upgrading the turntable, to AC1 if possible.. |
Dover,
I think he means that the Grandezza can be had for only $2,000 more than the Raven 10.5?
At least that's how I read it? |
The discussion has been great but the original thread was
"I am getting a Raven one but will have a choice of the Raven 10.5 or DaVinci Grandezza for just $2000 more! Which should I go for? Well I am not sure if Raven one is a good match to this super arm but the 10.5 have got great reviews. Please give soem advice."
Has anyone thought to ask how you can get either of these arms for $2000.
Is he paying too much for the Raven One or could the arms on offer be dodgy ?
The best answer may be to buy the Grandezza for $2000, sell it and then buy a new TW Acoustic. |
I have started my Grandezza experience with Peter Brem's first arm long time ago and received one of the first units ( which doesn't mean it is special). Later on I had two Grand Grandezzas, the current design. From my own experience I agree it is a great arm. What I was missing is a exchangable headshell.
I now saw an inage of the new DaVinci arm coming with a SME shell.
So we may wait a little to see how the new guy is performing. But "the classic design" will always be a good deal.
Best @ Fun Only |
Dear Lewm: IMHO the GST-801 with almost any cartridge outperform any SAEC tonearm. Don't take my word for sure, give it a try and if you don't like it I can buy it from you ( I own two-three of them. ) in 500.00!
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Gee Halcro, you say all those nice things about the Grandezza and then end up by saying it is a favorite of JV. Kind of ruins the picture for me. By the way ZYX UNIverse on Talea is possibly one of the best combos I have ever heard in my life.
What's the effective mass of the Copperhead? Those two others are of course high mass, and the fact that they sound good to you with high compliance MMs is at least serendipitous (meaning good to know but rather unexpected good luck), in my view. |
Dear Luna, I think the person who could give you sound advice (pun intended) regarding TW 10.5 is Dev. I also own Raven, and considering buying TW 10.5 . But after seeing Dev sold his, owning for so short time, I'm having second thought.
For fast reselling, nothing beat Breuer. The last one on Audiogon, now you see it, now you don't. Gone in 60 seconds.
Cheers, |
I own the 12" DaVinci Ref Grandezza and have not heard the Raven 10.5 but I have also owned a dozen different tonearms and currently have 6 of them mounted on operating turntables.
The DaVinci is a particularly fine performer which has never received a poor review from any owners that I am aware of?
It can beat some of the finest arms ever made on certain cartridges.....for instance, with the ZYX UNIverse......it beats the Continuum Copperhead and Fidelity Research FR-66S.
It also can sound rather well with higher compliance MM cartridges which, with many modern arms, is often not the case.
From an aesthetic and quality point of view, I agree with Dertonarm that the DaVinci will become a design 'Classic' if it not already is?
For what it's worth......it is also Jon Valin's favourite current pivot arm :^) |
Dear Thuchan: You can't be serious. Do you want to read those emails? don'y you care about the deep harm that could make to you and your " partner "? why don't you ask him before?
Do you want I being specific?, ask him. IMHO the best you can do is stay away from this subject because you can be splash with.
++++ " like you are deeply hurt by his argumentation. " ++++
which one? on which subject? which kind of argumentation other than his " children's tales " for ignorants?.
Please don't let me laugh again and again but thank's for this: you make my day!
God made it and the " fortune " put together!!!, you are lucky now that belongs to that german group that you rejected in the past. I hope they ( he ) is not only " using you " for now.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dertonearm, How many people in this world use a nude 1/2" Ortofon SPU or vintage cartridges with TW 10.5/Davinci ? |
This is a great thread as subjective and objective opinions have been freely expressed. Is this what our hobby of HIFI is all about, passion plus practise? It seems the TW10.5 wins over on the practical side. I guess it is like the perfect Swiss Knife of Tonearm. How about the DaVinci? It claims the omission on those practical adjustments is to be able to enhance the emotion of it presentation. Has it succeeded in its claim? Can the owners tell me if its sound is something special emotional wise? Which one will remain a classic in the future? |
Dear Lbelchev, my comment regarding Luna making up his mind about the cartridges he will use was because - while both tonearms do share similar moving mass - the TW 10.5 and the Grandezza are very different in terms of energy transfer and thus do work together well with different cartridges.
For instance - a nude 1/2" Ortofon SPU will perform VERY different in the two tonearms due to the fairly high amount of energy it transfers into the tonearm while tracking a groove.
Furthermore - if Luna is curious about trying vintage cartridges too or wants to browse on the second hand market for some carts anytime in the future he should indeed consider having the option of azimuth adjustment available.
Yes - he will get as many different recommendations as posts...;-) ... |
Dear Dertonarm, Do not get me wrong. I have respect from all your knowledge. I admire all your Super precision products. I am sure your "Der Tonearm" will be something new and different in audio world.
BUT, please, tell me - what is the benefit, if Luna specify some favorite (for him) cartridge(s). All of the cartridges that fit on Davinci will fit on TW 10,5 and vice versa.
I think, normal first step for Luna is to make his choice about tonearm. As a second step, Luna can think about some cartridges and he will get around 100 useful posts in this thread :-) |
Dear Raul,
you are still on your crusade against Dertonearm. It looks like you are deeply hurt by his argumentation. You might know that it is no good style saying bad things about someone without being specific. This is a coward like behavior. Did not think before that you need going this way.
best @ fun only |
Raul, it's hilarious reading your thoughts on Dertonarm and you're certainly entitled to them but in actuality nobody's a bigger dirtbag than you. |
Mike,
who brought you on the trail of Dgad? There is no group, believe me. Of course these are individuals coming together, exchanging ideas and also having very different ideas on many audio subjects.
It is like in the US too where some audio friends exchange experiences.
Some of these guys are very keen on the technical side, some more on specific subjects like carts, design etc.
It sometimes seems to me that we all are a bit sensitive towards critical comments and some of us on Audiogon take it personal very quickly.
But what is wrong when someone cannot agree to a statement that at turntable with a damaged bearing still sounds like one of the Top Performers. This is perfect bullshit and maybe one day we will end up in this circus with a design of a floating cartridge needle making us believing it is the benchmark design of all times...
best @ fun only |
Dear Luna, as to your original question.
You might make up your mind first which are your favorite cartridge(s) you may use in the tonearm of your choice.
The TW 10.5 might indeed give you a wide range of suitable cartridges to choose from.
A point which shouldn't be forgotten.
"Always be ready to speak your mind and a base man will avoid you".
William Blake, The Marriage of heaven and Hell, Proverbs of Hell, Plate 8.
One of my heroes from the age of enlightenment.
And one of my favorite proverbs.
Following a rule like this can't just earn you friends only along the road. |
Dear Dgad: +++++ " Wonder why you aren't much on the German forums " +++++
there are very good reasons for that. The Dertonarm audio history is a deep and dirty black one. I received several emails from his german audio " friends " where they gave me ( I never asked for. ) point by point an important part of his audio history.
I can't post those german emails for respect to the Dertonarm person/human been figure but suffice is to say that he was expel/ejected by the back-door from all those forums as a fact Agon is his last chance and his last refuge till Agon eject him too.
His audio history is really bad more that you or any one could imagine: full of harmful facts/actions to the good and honest people out there.
What he already showed in Agon forums is only the point/tip of the iceberg ( a big one I have to say. ).
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dgad, "we the people" haven't really noticed your absence. Those able to read without having to go through the matrix of their ego will realize that in the very beginning of any thread - especially with your beloved TW - I only took position against pre-laurels.
I couldn't really see any justified "best" before a product was even introduced and delivered.
While this now has apparently becoming a common rule and we see each week another "best of all times" going and going again.
Same with TW and FS - I personally have no problem with them at all.
Now read this carefully - I know you will.
Nor do I have any problem with their products.
Both do deliver well manufactured components which do reflect the positive in german engineering, quality approach and design.
They aren't bad - they are good and they deserve the market success they have.
Message received ?
They are not my cup of tea, but I respect them.
There is way much worse out there.
Surprised ?
No one should.
At least not those who pay attention and read careful.
There are a few people who are unable to read anything which isn't to their particular liking without the glasses of their own matrix.
Consequently they will run into problems with people taking a different point of view and position.
That's happen everywhere in life.
You are right - most have figured me out by now.
A few apparently haven't.
If I wouldn't get the opposition of people like you and others you agree with and who agree with you, I know something would be wrong with my point of view.
Reliefed to learn I am still on firm course.
Agree - the iPad 2 is great.
But I don't read your posts on my way to the bathroom. |
From photos, the Lustre tonearms do appear to be beautifully made. Is it the GST-801? (Of course, by the time we are reading this, the price on the Lustre has probably risen by $500.) Since by pure chance my L07D came with an NOS secondary tonearm mount for SAEC (so one can mount an SAEC at the rear of the chassis and thereby use a second tonearm as well as the primary one), i have been tempted to consider an SAEC as well. |
Raul,
I just finished reading this long thread. I love how you say it like it is. Good for you.
Dert,
I stopped posting much on Audiogon because you & your group o f so called superior ears just ruined this site. Sorry but got to say it as I see it. Full of hidden agendas and taking every single thread off topic. How sad. Wonder why you aren't much on the German forums.
Meanwhile I know a few moving on to other forums for the friendlier nature.
As for the TW Arm, I own it & quite like it. But I will stress it isn't just the arm. It is the arm cartridge synergy. With the MC2 Finish it is a wonderful match. Ease of setup is high. But I do love my Schroder as well. Totally different and a pain to set up.
Both these arms are from German designers. So Dert the superior to all Germans will have nothing good to say.
Why am I wasting my time. Most have Dert figured out by now. But my iPad is great to use while going to the bathroom & reading Dert's posts fit with what I am doing. |
The Koshin/Lustre tonearm is indeed an interesting design. It was sold in pretty large quantities in Germany. Especially so since Thorens offered the Koshin/Lustre as one of the 3 choices coming with a TD126 mk3.
The can be bought second hand for about 500 USD.
They were often referred to as "poor man's Fidelity Research FR-64".
Nice heavy mass tonearm.
Not great, but nice and well above the average. |
Btw, I'm refering on the prices subject to the vintage tonearms.
R. |
Dear Raul, Yes of course - I do it in both ways. |
Dear Lewm: That azymuth changes through the tonearm collar ( SME removable headshell type. ) is an old trick for that kind of tonearms that were not designed for azymuth changes. It is a pain to use it because was not designed for that purpose.
In those all times clever/wise/knowledge Japanese tonearm designers ( there were not many, few very few. ) took in count the azymuth subject through their designs and from the ones I remember ( I own those tonearms. ) only Lustre GST-801 and Audio Technica ones ( they builded different models. . ) came with this azymuth control by design through the original Lustre and AT headshells, just like the Raven today.
No, Dynavector, SAEC, Micro Seiki, FR, Technics, Audiocraft or Denon thinked about.
Lewm, try to find out a Lustre one: this japanese design was IMHO one not only of the best tonearms out there but a design several several years a head any other tonearm design: even the ones today and you don't need to pay " stupid " high prices for it: this IMHO and talking on tonearms is a real/true century bargain ever.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lbelchev: You can do this in any removable headshell tonearm design through the tonearm collar at the front or through the headshells that came with azymuth " control " like in the Raven one where you even can have the cartridge up side down.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm, Best way to do it is right at the headshell, so only the headshell rotates and only in the vertical plane of the stylus tip. Only Reed does it that way, or some detachable headshells offer it as well. I think TW-Acustic Raven 10.5 does it that way too :-) |
Dear Lewm, not only the Reed - you can even adjust azimuth on the venerable FR-60s series tonearms in the way you are used to do it on the Reed.
And since you only have a play of say 0 - 2° in both directions, this "hidden" azimuth adjustment option is indeed located right at the SME-bajonet adapter.
Thus not interfering with VTA nor changing the tonearm's geometry. |
Well, at least SME and DaVinci honored what they think on azymuth and designed according that honest " attitude " and did not corrupted their " feelings " in favor of $$$ or against them " feelings ", good!
R. |
DT, I thought it was someone else who actually suggested that azimuth adjustment is a desirable feature, BECAUSE of possible problems related to the spatial location of the armboard with respect to the platter. We don't disagree on this.
However, I do get a sense of security with tonearms that provide for azimuth adjustment vs those that do not. Unfortunately, the sad fact is that most tonearms that offer the feature also change VTA along with azimuth, because to change azimuth, they rotate the arm tube near the pivot, not taking into account the offset angle of the headshell. Best way to do it is right at the headshell, so only the headshell rotates and only in the vertical plane of the stylus tip. Only Reed does it that way, or some detachable headshells offer it as well.
Actually, I was wrong in my geometrical analysis; the situation is even worse than I wrote, if one were to try to correct for armboard/platter disorientation using azimuth. At the very best, you could only restore the proper relationship (platter plane parallel to armboard) at one single point across the entire surface of an LP. And that's assuming the error was within the arc described. |
Dear Lewm, of course you wouldn't fix a non-plane parallel to platter armboard with azimuth.
But there are enough audiophile who do - by error.
I was referring to this because I have found many situations with "azimuth corrected" cartridges which in reality was not a misplaced stylus but a ledge of the armboard towards the platter.
But as the level wasn't checked - precisely or at all - the "apparent" wrong azimuth was "corrected".
This was mentioned, to illustrate the point that "apparent wrong" azimuth isn't always what it seems on first sight. |
OK, so a few of those incredible Italian industrial designers slipped across the border from Italy into Switzerland. Perhaps politics had something to do with that. One can see many Ferrari's zipping around Alpine roads. I was once overtaken by a 250GT on a downhill heading into Ventimiglia, at a speed never to be forgotten. First, a dot in my rear view mirror, then in an instant passing me, then in another instant a dot on the horizon. Alas, I was driving a rented Fiat.
If armboard is not plane parallel to platter, I would fix that not with azimuth adjust. Even if it made any sense to do it that way, azimuth adjust could only correct for one kind of error in the alignment, along one arc. Whereas, the error in armboard/platter alignment could describe any one of an infinite family of arcs. |
Dear Dover, agreed - level of both platter and tonearm board is an issue in a good portion of turntables.
As we are dealing with pretty "small" (quantified in relative ..;-) ..) forces in tonearm alignment, full plane horizontal level is mandatory to ensure the absence of "parasite" forces which will alter the result and thus lead to misalignment.
Anti-skating rarely if ever is applied in any correct form.
Especially so, since skating force itself first is not linear over the groove AND depends on stylus shape, off-set angle and VTF.
Now add an armboard which isn't level ( I would estimate 90+% of all turntables out there ) and/or a turntable which' platter isn't level (talking about speed accuracy ...).
Key problem here is, that really a good bubble/spirit level is both - a bit more expensive but foremost: pretty heavy.
If you are looking for a precision aluminum level with say 0.6 mm/m accuracy for technical purpose, you are looking a something which itself already has a mass in excess of 1 lbs and is 8" long.
If you want to go further/do better - say 0.1 mm/m accuracy and a frame level which you can put nicely around the center of your platter and thus avoid leveling error by the instrument's mass - than we are talking US$500+ and a mass of 2.5-4.8 lbs with precision smoothed contact surface.
That will be accurate, but the sheer mass of the leveling instrument will falsify the result - at least on all turntables which are suspended with pretty low mass.
The spirit levels we see sold for audio purpose are only jokes.
A good way to go is the use of special architectural and measurement laser equipment which "draws" precise leveled lines on objects.
Thus armboards and platters can be leveled without additional mass. |
Dear Glai, Dear Tdaudio,
Thanks for your efforts to share with us your impressions about this tonearms.
Glay, as usual, you make perfect description. You are the man who clear say: "I tried both toneararms on my Raven AC, on my system and my impressions are the following...".
Tdaudio, I wish you to catch the Talea (or the new Virtu) and be able to compare it with 10.5 TW.
Luna, do you make your choice and how useful was this thread?
Happy listening.
Lyubo |
Coming back to the universal acceptance of faulty produced cartridges - i.e. cartridges with a stylus not 90° dead center.
If any one reading this thread has had the experience lately ( the last years ...) that he/she/it bought a cartridge new in the shop, took it home, mounted it and found that it needed azimuth adjustment - I would like to know two things:
a) what was the "sonic" reason or evidence for the assumption that it was indeed a misplaced stylus which asked for azimuth adjustment ?
b) why wasn't it returned it to the dealer for refund/exchange but accepted "as is" ?
And - I don't mean cartridges bought second hand like "demo" sample or with "50 hours only - hardly broken in - as new !".
I have no doubt that a hell of a lot of cartridges out there do need azimuth adjustment NOW.
But they did not need it when they were "new out of the box".
They were raped, twisted and misaligned/-orientated by faulty set-up.
After 50 hours playing with way too high anti-skating no cantilever is orientated anymore the way it left the factory.
After 50 hours playing in a tonearm which has ledge and isn't level you certainly need azimuth to correct the now disorientated stylus.
These two aren't the only, but the 2 most prominent and frequent scenarios.
No - don't get me wrong.
I certainly accept that there are misplaced stylus out there which can still perform decent when the azimuth is corrected.
I just state that this can not/shall not/shall not be acceptable with a NEW cartridge.
Not on the price level we are talking about.
No one of us would accept this kind of product quality in any other part of his life ( well, maybe in countries where "quality" isn't really a common phrase ...).
By requesting azimuth adjustment in a tonearm we imply, that we either:
a) use cartridges which we bought second hand - and found out (surprise !) that they need adjustment in that plane.
b) do happily accept low quality control and faulty product for our cash.
c ) believe that this world is an imperfect one in the sense that a simple industrial stylus can't be glued/drilled/placed in place but by dump luck.
That in the times when laser guidance is long an industry standard.
Sorry - but that would mean being badly informed about the subject.
Which isn't necessary in the hey-days of the web we so widely use.
It is about whether I do accept an evitable product fault in the first or not.
It is only in the first matter, that the specific tonearm needs azimuth adjustment. |
